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Another bunt tred

Posted: 09/02/2014 8:35 PM

Another bunt tred 


I had to start it sa opposed to committing suicide. At least we have a place to come and scream. 1 out you just tied the game, you got a little momentum and lets bunt...
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Posted: 09/02/2014 10:05 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 


Almonte failed to bunt twice and then laced a single to right....  

Why didnt they just try that in the first place?
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Posted: 09/02/2014 10:24 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 


He was trying to figure what would give the best chance of getting picked off first. tongue

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Posted: 09/02/2014 11:28 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 


I know it was discussed elsewhere on the board, but that first inning bunt the other day against the Dodgers, following a leadoff double, takes the cake. With Stults on the mound for us, no less... it's not like it was Ross v. Kershaw. Couldn't believe it.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Preller talks about stuff like this with his inner circle.
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Posted: 09/03/2014 9:31 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 


I  wondered if he did that on his own or Buddy called it.  Either way it was inexcusable. A base hit most likely scores a run.  Why would you give up an out in the that situation.  Ridiculous

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Posted: 09/03/2014 1:09 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 


Oops...I just went into this on another thread again!
It bothered me enough ..........you guys too I guess considering it has it's own thread now!wink





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 09/03/2014 2:12 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 


Honestly Mr. P, I think I remember Buddy calling the hit and run once that I can remember this season.  To do it with a Tony Gywnn, no problem.  With Gyorko for example we would probably have a strike 'em out, throw them out.  Then again maybe some of these guys can learn to flick the bat instead of going for the fences.  Lasorda loved the hit and run and the Dodgers back then were very good at it.

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Posted: 09/03/2014 4:15 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 





---------------------------------------------
--- thrownoutatsecond wrote:

Honestly Mr. P, I think I remember Buddy calling the hit and run once that I can remember this season.  To do it with a Tony Gywnn, no problem.  With Gyorko for example we would probably have a strike 'em out, throw them out.  Then again maybe some of these guys can learn to flick the bat instead of going for the fences.  Lasorda loved the hit and run and the Dodgers back then were very good at it.

---------------------------------------------

I do agree we don't really have the type of hitters you hit and run with......but what's with that anyway?
That's the very type of hitter we need to have up and down the lineup......and we don't have any really?
Maybe Spangy can be that kind of guy?
Playing in Petco......with a great pitching staff......we need a lineup full of #2 hitters with a couple guys who can hit it out.
But we are trying to win with low contact hitters?
I sure hope someone realizes this and starts to change it.





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 09/03/2014 5:03 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 


Do any teams hit and run anymore? Certainly not to the extend we saw it in years past. Hitters don't make contact as a rule across MLB and don't have the discipline / bat control to execute the play. Under normal circumstances hitters can't even hit behind the runner or go the opposite way on an outside pitch. Speedy singles hitters bunting for a base hit … history. Everyone swinging for the big hit … with high K rates … that is today in all of baseball.

That contact era of baseball is gone … 

You will have a better chance trying to convince runners to slide feet first, not step out of the batters box on every pitch to readjust their batting gloves, or a pitcher to actually pitch in less than 20 seconds … and you have no chance on those.

Not sure how the saber metric guys come out on this (depends which ones I guess) but as I recall they don't like SB or bunts …. so there is a chance they don't like the hit and run play either … somewhat irrelevant though if no players can execute the play.

Last edited 09/03/2014 5:04 PM by FENN68

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Posted: 09/03/2014 8:29 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 



FENN68 wrote: Do any teams hit and run anymore? Certainly not to the extend we saw it in years past. Hitters don't make contact as a rule across MLB and don't have the discipline / bat control to execute the play. Under normal circumstances hitters can't even hit behind the runner or go the opposite way on an outside pitch. Speedy singles hitters bunting for a base hit … history. Everyone swinging for the big hit … with high K rates … that is today in all of baseball.

That contact era of baseball is gone … 

You will have a better chance trying to convince runners to slide feet first, not step out of the batters box on every pitch to readjust their batting gloves, or a pitcher to actually pitch in less than 20 seconds … and you have no chance on those.


Exactly, Fenn.  

I love small ball baseball.  The hit and run, stealing bases, bunting for a hit....all that stuff.  

I get sick of watching my team strike out 11-12 times a night because they are going for the fences every-single-time.   I'd love to see some disciplined, Tony Gwynn-esque player come around.  I don't think there is one person today who currently fits that mold.




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Posted: 09/04/2014 3:32 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 


Maybe this will be the new "Moneyball".
Home runs and scoring is down across baseball.
Maybe someone(we) need to bring back the 80's Cardinals style of get on base and run like the wind.....bunt....hit and run and play good defense style of game.
We have the Park and the pitching for it.
Now for the Coach and the players........hmm?





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 09/04/2014 9:22 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 


Awesome Mr. P.  34853_rockon.GIF I have been saying the same thing to my buddy about a 80's style Cards team.  Right there is a World Series plan in your one paragraph.  Of course you need at least dependable big bopper as Jack Clark was for those teams.  Two would be better and jack rabbits on the base paths.  Preller ya listening?

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  • brianmcon
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Posted: 09/04/2014 9:35 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 



MrPadre19 wrote: Maybe this will be the new "Moneyball".
Home runs and scoring is down across baseball.
Maybe someone(we) need to bring back the 80's Cardinals style of get on base and run like the wind.....bunt....hit and run and play good defense style of game.
We have the Park and the pitching for it.
Now for the Coach and the players........hmm?
I know I'm sailing off topic here; but Pads in PETCO are built to be a running team: a stolen base has a lot more value in PETCO with the Pads pitching staff than it does for the Rockies at home...

In 2012 trio of ECab, Venable, and (healthy) Maybin had  94 stolen bases.  2013 dropped to 63 with Maybin down to 4 due to injuries.  But 2014 with Maybin playing much more they're now down to 30!  When these guys aren't /can't run their value just plummets... you can replace them with any other mediocre average low/no power guy with no speed & get  same result.  Maybin probably told not to run after shoulder injury?

Pads CAN'T win with so little run game when they struggle to score so much.  When you're as bad as we are offensively, I look at it like why the hell not?!   Nothing to lose!  Venable won the Amarista walkoff game the other night by stealing 2nd....
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Posted: 09/04/2014 10:48 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 



brianmcon wrote:
MrPadre19 wrote: Maybe this will be the new "Moneyball".
Home runs and scoring is down across baseball.
Maybe someone(we) need to bring back the 80's Cardinals style of get on base and run like the wind.....bunt....hit and run and play good defense style of game.
We have the Park and the pitching for it.
Now for the Coach and the players........hmm?
I know I'm sailing off topic here; but Pads in PETCO are built to be a running team: a stolen base has a lot more value in PETCO with the Pads pitching staff than it does for the Rockies at home...

In 2012 trio of ECab, Venable, and (healthy) Maybin had  94 stolen bases.  2013 dropped to 63 with Maybin down to 4 due to injuries.  But 2014 with Maybin playing much more they're now down to 30!  When these guys aren't /can't run their value just plummets... you can replace them with any other mediocre average low/no power guy with no speed & get  same result.  Maybin probably told not to run after shoulder injury?

Pads CAN'T win with so little run game when they struggle to score so much.  When you're as bad as we are offensively, I look at it like why the hell not?!   Nothing to lose!  Venable won the Amarista walkoff game the other night by stealing 2nd....

You'd have to hope that AJ sees the speed of the youngsters who have just arrived, and making their way up the system (Spangenberg, Almonte, Liriano, Renfroe, Mallex Smith) and envisions a running team. 
He might have to beat Buddy over the head (or replace him?) in order to shift the paradigm from bunting to stealing, but it would be very exciting baseball if that's how this thing developed.
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Posted: 09/04/2014 10:50 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 


It's not just speed though....we do have that(finally Ninja with some steals),what we need is to "vastly" improve our OBP team wide!
Speed doesn't help much when your practically last in OBP and AVG consistently.

By the way....any ideas as to why we have started so slow the last few years and what we can do to change this?


Even more off topic(sorry),but am I the only one who has been very impressed with Amarista this year?
He has been the go to guy when we talk about under performing and poor defense but I shudder to think where we'd be without him.
He's been very good defensively no matter where we've put him IMO.
To me he's in the top 5 for our MVP this year.
Smith-Ross-Rivera-Amarista





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Posted: 09/04/2014 11:57 AM

Re: Another bunt tred 



MrPadre19 wrote: It's not just speed though....we do have that(finally Ninja with some steals),what we need is to "vastly" improve our OBP team wide!
Speed doesn't help much when your practically last in OBP and AVG consistently.

By the way....any ideas as to why we have started so slow the last few years and what we can do to change this?


Even more off topic(sorry),but am I the only one who has been very impressed with Amarista this year?
He has been the go to guy when we talk about under performing and poor defense but I shudder to think where we'd be without him.
He's been very good defensively no matter where we've put him IMO.
To me he's in the top 5 for our MVP this year.
Smith-Ross-Rivera-Amarista
April - May - June marine layer hurts a poor hitting team more than a good hitting team while neutralizing the pitching advantage. (Just made that up but it does sound good).  eek1 Three alternative solutions:

1. Play the first 1/2 of the season with all day games;
2. Move the Padres to El Paso; eek
3. Get better hitters; wink

Agree on the value of Amarista … that ability to get slotted in anywhere and cover absent regulars does a lot to save creating gaping holes when someone goes down … only so many on the bench … without that versatility the roster would be difficult to manage. Not really a future as a starter (not enough bat) but that super utility guy free up roster slots for more strategic uses. Been really surprised with this defense at SS. Not out of the question … thought not likely … his SS work might make it easier to take a risk on moving ECab … never plays a full season, in 2014 near the bottom of SS offensively and defensively, plus a Boras client that will be a FA in a couple of years. Even without going out and getting a serviceable SS … might a risk on Amarista / Jackson / Peterson be taken until Rondon / Turner are ready? Would not get a lot for ECab … but teams like NYY and Bost might be interested for a decent prospect.
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Posted: 09/04/2014 12:14 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 



MrPadre19 wrote:
Even more off topic(sorry),but am I the only one who has been very impressed with Amarista this year?

Agree.
I'm really enjoying watching Alexi's defense, and he's slowly but (hopefully?) surely developing with the bat.

I generally can't stand Enberg as our play-by-play guy, but he made a comment a month or so ago about Amarista starting to become more of a line-drive, spray-the-ball-to-all-fields hitter, rather than a try-to-pull-everything-and-hit-it-into-the-seats hitter, and how that transformation will serve Alexi VERY well.  Couldn't agree more.
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Posted: 09/04/2014 12:22 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 



USMC53 wrote:
brianmcon wrote:
MrPadre19 wrote: Maybe this will be the new "Moneyball".
Home runs and scoring is down across baseball.
Maybe someone(we) need to bring back the 80's Cardinals style of get on base and run like the wind.....bunt....hit and run and play good defense style of game.
We have the Park and the pitching for it.
Now for the Coach and the players........hmm?
I know I'm sailing off topic here; but Pads in PETCO are built to be a running team: a stolen base has a lot more value in PETCO with the Pads pitching staff than it does for the Rockies at home...

In 2012 trio of ECab, Venable, and (healthy) Maybin had  94 stolen bases.  2013 dropped to 63 with Maybin down to 4 due to injuries.  But 2014 with Maybin playing much more they're now down to 30!  When these guys aren't /can't run their value just plummets... you can replace them with any other mediocre average low/no power guy with no speed & get  same result.  Maybin probably told not to run after shoulder injury?

Pads CAN'T win with so little run game when they struggle to score so much.  When you're as bad as we are offensively, I look at it like why the hell not?!   Nothing to lose!  Venable won the Amarista walkoff game the other night by stealing 2nd....

You'd have to hope that AJ sees the speed of the youngsters who have just arrived, and making their way up the system (Spangenberg, Almonte, Liriano, Renfroe, Mallex Smith) and envisions a running team. 
He might have to beat Buddy over the head (or replace him?) in order to shift the paradigm from bunting to stealing, but it would be very exciting baseball if that's how this thing developed.
Preller's philosophy is the key …. Black will execute the game plan as outlined by Preller and as supported by the players Preller delivers to the ML roster. 

In the past three or so drafts … there has been a clear shift from the Alderson philosophy (Forstythe, Antonelli, Dykstra) which did not focus on speed and athleticism to the opposite (Ma. Smith, Jankowski, Renfroe, Turner). IF these prospects develop into MLers and Preller's philosophy supports speed and defense … PETCO may get the line-up it has sought since it was built. Consider

Ma. Smith this year 88 SB
Jankowski last year 71 SB (injured most of this season)
Fuentes last year 38 SB (injured part of 2014 still 24 SB) plus two other season around 40 SB
Peterson last year 42 SB and in 2012 51 SB
Turner in less than half of season this year 23 SB
Spangenberg last year 36 SB

And for the more "power prospects"
Liriano this year 21 SB and in 2011 66 SB
Renfroe this year 13 SB

Although SB are of value … it is just as significant to have players who can get from 1st to 3rd, 2nd to home plus cover ground defensively. Padres are set up with some plus speed guys … including those two corner OF potential players in Renfroe and Liriano.

Just no idea on Preller's philosophy … might get some clues in the winter maneuvers (trades / FA signings) and then the next draft.
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Posted: 09/04/2014 2:47 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 



FENN68 wrote:
Preller's philosophy is the key …. Black will execute the game plan as outlined by Preller and as supported by the players Preller delivers to the ML roster. 

In the past three or so drafts … there has been a clear shift from the Alderson philosophy (Forstythe, Antonelli, Dykstra) which did not focus on speed and athleticism to the opposite (Ma. Smith, Jankowski, Renfroe, Turner). IF these prospects develop into MLers and Preller's philosophy supports speed and defense … PETCO may get the line-up it has sought since it was built...
Just no idea on Preller's philosophy … might get some clues in the winter maneuvers (trades / FA signings) and then the next draft.

You'd think that given (1) our payroll challenges compared to teams like LA and SF, and (2) our ballpark, Preller would see the clear advantage in developing a roster/organization OBP and speed.

I'm just a run-of-the-mill dumb fan, but it seems like that needs to be our organizational identity.  There's nothing wrong with a couple of basepath clogging, slow-footed thumpers in the middle of the lineup if we can get them, but for the most part, we need to be a team that gets on base, runs like the wind on the basepaths, and covers a ton of ground in the OF.

I love the idea of a Renfroe - Mallex Smith - Liriano OF, and a couple of speedy line-drive hitters like Spangenberg and Turner in the middle IF.
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Posted: 09/04/2014 5:51 PM

Re: Another bunt tred 



By the way....any ideas as to why we have started so slow the last few years and what we can do to change this?


It's partially talent and Buddy is somewhat forced into it but we need more of a set line up day in and day out.  Our #3 is our #3 hitter. Outside of injuries bench players should get maybe one start a week.  The regulars are not getting enough at bats to start the season.

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