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Building Via Trades.

Posted: 07/21/2014 2:13 PM

Building Via Trades. 


The Padres have made some great trades over the past several seasons involving fringe/marginal players. See the acqusitions of Tyson Ross, Ian Kennedy, Jesse Hahn, etc. 

My bone of contention are the trades involving "star" players.  More specifically, how the Padres get absolutely HOSED everytime they trade a good player.  These are the guys who should get us the biggest haul, and so far they have gotten us almost NOTHING.

2009 - Traded Peavy for Richard, Poreda, Russell, and Carter.  Only Richard had impact at the MLB level.  All are currently out of the organization.

2010 - Traded A-Gon for Kelly, Rizzo, Fuentes, and Patterson.  None have had impact at the MLB level.  Rizzo was traded, Kelly has been hurt for FOUR years, Patterson is out of baseball, Fuentes is in AAA where he is playing pretty well.

2011 - Traded Rizzo for Cashner.  Cashner has been good at the MLB level, despite making 5-6 trips to the DL in 3 years.  Serious health concerns.  Rizzo just made his first All Star team and is tied for first in the National League with HR.

2011 - Traded Mike Adams for Erlin and Weiland.  Neither have had an impact at the MLB level. Apparently they are good pitchers.  No one would ever know that because they can't stay healthy enough to get on the field. 

2011 - Traded Mat Latos for Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, and Boxberger.  All had some MLB impact, though not all of it good.  Volquez still gives me nightmares.  Grandal and Alonso are pedestrian at best.  Neither seem to be part of the Padres long term vision.  Box was traded.

2012 - Traded Ernesto Frieri for Amarista and Roach.  Amarista has had a moderate MLB impact, as a backup and someone who makes me curse at the TV screen when all 140 lbs of him swings for the fences every AB.  Roach is a AAAA guy.

2014 - Traded Street for Rondon, Lindsey, Alvarez, Morris. The jury is out.

All of the guys we traded were highly desirable, impact type guys.  They have 10 All Star games, 4 gold gloves, and a Cy Young between them.

None of the guys we got were impact major leaguers.  NOT ONE.  Cashner might prove to be one day, but do you realize in the 2 1/2 years he has been here he has only made 43 starts and has pitched UNDER 300 total innings?

That's better than the trio of Kelly, Wieland, and Erlin; who have made a combined 31 starts for under 160 innings between them in 2 1/2 seasons.

On the offense, the dynamic Cuban super duo of Alonso and Grandal have are averaging about 250 AB's per season in the past 2 1/2 seasons.  And GRandal is a roider.  And his defense is regressing.  And Alonso has no pop.

The Padres do great when trading nobodies for nobodies.  But in my analysis we just give our best players away for nothing.

Get that new GM in here quick.

Padres Baseball: Waiting until next year since 1969.

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Posted: 07/21/2014 2:41 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


Good post......and indeed our return for top players has been a major reason we are still under performing.
I will point out though that Frieri,Adams,and even Peavy have not exactly been missed.
None have them have done much since leaving either.
Still....your point is a good one.





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 07/21/2014 2:44 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



UncleBolt wrote: The Padres have made some great trades over the past several seasons involving fringe/marginal players. See the acqusitions of Tyson Ross, Ian Kennedy, Jesse Hahn, etc. 

My bone of contention are the trades involving "star" players.  More specifically, how the Padres get absolutely HOSED everytime they trade a good player.  These are the guys who should get us the biggest haul, and so far they have gotten us almost NOTHING.

2009 - Traded Peavy for Richard, Poreda, Russell, and Carter.  Only Richard had impact at the MLB level.  All are currently out of the organization.

2010 - Traded A-Gon for Kelly, Rizzo, Fuentes, and Patterson.  None have had impact at the MLB level.  Rizzo was traded, Kelly has been hurt for FOUR years, Patterson is out of baseball, Fuentes is in AAA where he is playing pretty well.

2011 - Traded Rizzo for Cashner.  Cashner has been good at the MLB level, despite making 5-6 trips to the DL in 3 years.  Serious health concerns.  Rizzo just made his first All Star team and is tied for first in the National League with HR.

2011 - Traded Mike Adams for Erlin and Weiland.  Neither have had an impact at the MLB level. Apparently they are good pitchers.  No one would ever know that because they can't stay healthy enough to get on the field. 

2011 - Traded Mat Latos for Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, and Boxberger.  All had some MLB impact, though not all of it good.  Volquez still gives me nightmares.  Grandal and Alonso are pedestrian at best.  Neither seem to be part of the Padres long term vision.  Box was traded.

2012 - Traded Ernesto Frieri for Amarista and Roach.  Amarista has had a moderate MLB impact, as a backup and someone who makes me curse at the TV screen when all 140 lbs of him swings for the fences every AB.  Roach is a AAAA guy.

2014 - Traded Street for Rondon, Lindsey, Alvarez, Morris. The jury is out.

All of the guys we traded were highly desirable, impact type guys.  They have 10 All Star games, 4 gold gloves, and a Cy Young between them.

None of the guys we got were impact major leaguers.  NOT ONE.  Cashner might prove to be one day, but do you realize in the 2 1/2 years he has been here he has only made 43 starts and has pitched UNDER 300 total innings?

That's better than the trio of Kelly, Wieland, and Erlin; who have made a combined 31 starts for under 160 innings between them in 2 1/2 seasons.

On the offense, the dynamic Cuban super duo of Alonso and Grandal have are averaging about 250 AB's per season in the past 2 1/2 seasons.  And GRandal is a roider.  And his defense is regressing.  And Alonso has no pop.

The Padres do great when trading nobodies for nobodies.  But in my analysis we just give our best players away for nothing.

Get that new GM in here quick.
I think you should also post what it cost us to acquire the players that we didn't draft in order to round out the equation.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 3:09 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



lafnboy13 wrote:
UncleBolt wrote: The Padres have made some great trades over the past several seasons involving fringe/marginal players. See the acqusitions of Tyson Ross, Ian Kennedy, Jesse Hahn, etc. 

My bone of contention are the trades involving "star" players.  More specifically, how the Padres get absolutely HOSED everytime they trade a good player.  These are the guys who should get us the biggest haul, and so far they have gotten us almost NOTHING.

2009 - Traded Peavy for Richard, Poreda, Russell, and Carter.  Only Richard had impact at the MLB level.  All are currently out of the organization.

2010 - Traded A-Gon for Kelly, Rizzo, Fuentes, and Patterson.  None have had impact at the MLB level.  Rizzo was traded, Kelly has been hurt for FOUR years, Patterson is out of baseball, Fuentes is in AAA where he is playing pretty well.

2011 - Traded Rizzo for Cashner.  Cashner has been good at the MLB level, despite making 5-6 trips to the DL in 3 years.  Serious health concerns.  Rizzo just made his first All Star team and is tied for first in the National League with HR.

2011 - Traded Mike Adams for Erlin and Weiland.  Neither have had an impact at the MLB level. Apparently they are good pitchers.  No one would ever know that because they can't stay healthy enough to get on the field. 

2011 - Traded Mat Latos for Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, and Boxberger.  All had some MLB impact, though not all of it good.  Volquez still gives me nightmares.  Grandal and Alonso are pedestrian at best.  Neither seem to be part of the Padres long term vision.  Box was traded.

2012 - Traded Ernesto Frieri for Amarista and Roach.  Amarista has had a moderate MLB impact, as a backup and someone who makes me curse at the TV screen when all 140 lbs of him swings for the fences every AB.  Roach is a AAAA guy.

2014 - Traded Street for Rondon, Lindsey, Alvarez, Morris. The jury is out.

All of the guys we traded were highly desirable, impact type guys.  They have 10 All Star games, 4 gold gloves, and a Cy Young between them.

None of the guys we got were impact major leaguers.  NOT ONE.  Cashner might prove to be one day, but do you realize in the 2 1/2 years he has been here he has only made 43 starts and has pitched UNDER 300 total innings?

That's better than the trio of Kelly, Wieland, and Erlin; who have made a combined 31 starts for under 160 innings between them in 2 1/2 seasons.

On the offense, the dynamic Cuban super duo of Alonso and Grandal have are averaging about 250 AB's per season in the past 2 1/2 seasons.  And GRandal is a roider.  And his defense is regressing.  And Alonso has no pop.

The Padres do great when trading nobodies for nobodies.  But in my analysis we just give our best players away for nothing.

Get that new GM in here quick.
I think you should also post what it cost us to acquire the players that we didn't draft in order to round out the equation.
Should of drafted Verlander
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Posted: 07/21/2014 3:27 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 





---------------------------------------------
--- lafnboy13 wrote:


UncleBolt wrote: The Padres have made some great trades over the past several seasons involving fringe/marginal players. See the acqusitions of Tyson Ross, Ian Kennedy, Jesse Hahn, etc. 

My bone of contention are the trades involving "star" players.  More specifically, how the Padres get absolutely HOSED everytime they trade a good player.  These are the guys who should get us the biggest haul, and so far they have gotten us almost NOTHING.

2009 - Traded Peavy for Richard, Poreda, Russell, and Carter.  Only Richard had impact at the MLB level.  All are currently out of the organization.

2010 - Traded A-Gon for Kelly, Rizzo, Fuentes, and Patterson.  None have had impact at the MLB level.  Rizzo was traded, Kelly has been hurt for FOUR years, Patterson is out of baseball, Fuentes is in AAA where he is playing pretty well.

2011 - Traded Rizzo for Cashner.  Cashner has been good at the MLB level, despite making 5-6 trips to the DL in 3 years.  Serious health concerns.  Rizzo just made his first All Star team and is tied for first in the National League with HR.

2011 - Traded Mike Adams for Erlin and Weiland.  Neither have had an impact at the MLB level. Apparently they are good pitchers.  No one would ever know that because they can't stay healthy enough to get on the field. 

2011 - Traded Mat Latos for Alonso, Grandal, Volquez, and Boxberger.  All had some MLB impact, though not all of it good.  Volquez still gives me nightmares.  Grandal and Alonso are pedestrian at best.  Neither seem to be part of the Padres long term vision.  Box was traded.

2012 - Traded Ernesto Frieri for Amarista and Roach.  Amarista has had a moderate MLB impact, as a backup and someone who makes me curse at the TV screen when all 140 lbs of him swings for the fences every AB.  Roach is a AAAA guy.

2014 - Traded Street for Rondon, Lindsey, Alvarez, Morris. The jury is out.

All of the guys we traded were highly desirable, impact type guys.  They have 10 All Star games, 4 gold gloves, and a Cy Young between them.

None of the guys we got were impact major leaguers.  NOT ONE.  Cashner might prove to be one day, but do you realize in the 2 1/2 years he has been here he has only made 43 starts and has pitched UNDER 300 total innings?

That's better than the trio of Kelly, Wieland, and Erlin; who have made a combined 31 starts for under 160 innings between them in 2 1/2 seasons.

On the offense, the dynamic Cuban super duo of Alonso and Grandal have are averaging about 250 AB's per season in the past 2 1/2 seasons.  And GRandal is a roider.  And his defense is regressing.  And Alonso has no pop.

The Padres do great when trading nobodies for nobodies.  But in my analysis we just give our best players away for nothing.

Get that new GM in here quick.
I think you should also post what it cost us to acquire the players that we didn't draft in order to round out the equation.

---------------------------------------------

That's a fair point.
While it's true "everyone" wishes we had gotten more for Gonzalez you can't just put blame on them for the return we got without also at least acknowledging the fact that we stole him from the Rangers to begin with!





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 07/21/2014 4:37 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


And the other end of the equation: what have these players done for the teams they were traded to? The answer is basically zip at big dollars.

As to the rest of your post... It's disingenuous at best to count the Street trade in your calculations. Dubbing Cashner a failure is laughable. The trades of our relievers have all been successes in my view. And on that note, if you're counting Fireri as a big deal, why not Gregerson? Probably because it doesn't fit into your narrative.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 4:46 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


Additionally, I pin the disappointments in a lot of these trades (and in the padres in general) on failures in development. The gm can only do so much.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 5:06 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


Two of these trades stick out like sore thumbs--

Frieri and Adams.

First off, Frieri.  Frieri was never a star or anything that even kind of/sort resembled one.  He was a low leverage reliever that wasn't trusted in the 8th or 9th inning.  He didn't have great stuff. 

The Angels got roughly two full years out of Frieri before they traded him because he was terrible.  When it was all said and done, they got roughly 1 WAR out of him over those two years (2014 ate into that total because, again, he was a nightmare.)

The Padres got Amarista and Roach.  I don't particularly like Amarista and I'm not super high on Roach, but a total of 10+ years of control of those two is pretty cut-and-dry worth more than the 2 years the Angels got out of Frieri.  Amarista has been about replacement level during his time with us, and Roach hasn't been much of a factor one way or another.  But the bar is so low: the chances of them accumulating significantly more value in their DECADE of team control than Frier accumulated in his 2 years with the Angels is pretty close to 100%.

This is about as good of a return as you could expect for a middle reliever.

Now, Adams.

Adams was better than Frieri and the return was better.  The Rangers got 77 innings of Mike Adams to the tune of somewhere in the 1-1.5WAR range.  In return, the Padres again got that coveted decade of team control.  For his part, Erlin has already been worth as much to us as Adams was to the Rangers.  So, if that pair are pitching for us at any point in the next 5 years, that trade is a landslide victory for us.  10 years of control on two SP--even if they are back-end guys, is worth a LOT more than 1.5 years of control of a shutdown setup man. 

I agree that the team has a spotty history of landing the "big trade."  These two don't belong on the list because: A) they weren't "big trades" and B) they are both clear victories for the Padres.

The Street trade also won't belong on this list, but it's too soon to say for sure.
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Posted: 07/21/2014 7:29 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



ImissNCbbq wrote: Dubbing Cashner a failure is laughable.
You can go back as many threads and post you want I don't you find anyone that said it was a terrible trade for Cashner let alone "Cashner a failure".  Some were not that unhappy with the trade, they just wanted to keep Rizzo.  What do you think years after trade, who is more valuable looking ahead Rizzo or Cashner? Just sayin'

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Posted: 07/22/2014 12:58 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


You can add Headley to the mix. Gold glover for chump change
AAAA is what this team is. Pittsburg owners admitted these a few years back and has forced them to change their ways. I wish the Padres would admit that they are just a feeder club!banghead
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Posted: 07/22/2014 1:47 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



Icebolt wrote: You can add Headley to the mix. Gold glover for chump change
AAAA is what this team is. Pittsburg owners admitted these a few years back and has forced them to change their ways. I wish the Padres would admit that they are just a feeder club!banghead
What did you realistically expect to get for a .230 hitter with little power for only "60" games?
Seriously?
This is not the 2012 Headley with still 2 years left on his contract.
The more this sinks in the more i think it's about all we could have expected.
Unless we wanted to let him just play out the last 60 games and let him walk.
I'd rather have someone(even if not as good) in there that will be here next season.





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:04 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


Looking at the Street and Headley trades in a different perspective …. the fact that the returns were not overwhelming and no near term "blue chip" players … suggests that the Padres realistically don't have any trade chips that would yield any near term / plus ML hitters. So building via trades looks like getting lower level prospects with some upside and wait for 3-4 years.

So, no near term building via trade, no FA that would turn this team into a contender, no blue chip prospects ready for 2015 … accept 2015 as a "non-contender" year and move anyone who will not be here in 2016 … good / bad / indifferent.
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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:17 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



FENN68 wrote: Looking at the Street and Headley trades in a different perspective …. the fact that the returns were not overwhelming and no near term "blue chip" players … suggests that the Padres realistically don't have any trade chips that would yield any near term / plus ML hitters. So building via trades looks like getting lower level prospects with some upside and wait for 3-4 years.

So, no near term building via trade, no FA that would turn this team into a contender, no blue chip prospects ready for 2015 … accept 2015 as a "non-contender" year and move anyone who will not be here in 2016 … good / bad / indifferent.
Harrison looking better and better every day.....If we're in salary dump mode, who is the most likely candidate in a trade for Harrison....      I know, I know....it's a trade that's not going to happen....but I like Harrison....if he came here, he would be a motivated player....

 

-----------------------–-----------------------------------------------------------------------Prospect I'm championing: Jerry Sullivan
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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:21 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


I thought we would compete beginning in 2012...or 2014...now we are "hoping" for 2016?

This is year six or seven of the rebuild.  And without a GM, we are basically starting over from scratch right now.
 in 2014.  You are right about no quick fixes. 

Our pitching is good, but Kennedy will be gone after next season so he can't be part of the "2016" plan.  Cashner is always just a slider or a hunting blind away from an extended DL trip.  Erlin, Wieland, Kelly, Luebke, Johnson should all be written off.  None are coming back and if they do, they will be mediocre at best.

We do not have a single MLB position player to build around.  The best we can do is "hope" Gyorko remembers how to hit.

Think of it this way, our "best" offensive player (Seth Smith) isn't even good enough to start on OUR team, the worst offense in the modern era. 

Lean times, my friends.

Padres Baseball: Waiting until next year since 1969.

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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:23 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 





---------------------------------------------
--- 27TKO wrote:


FENN68 wrote: Looking at the Street and Headley trades in a different perspective …. the fact that the returns were not overwhelming and no near term "blue chip" players … suggests that the Padres realistically don't have any trade chips that would yield any near term / plus ML hitters. So building via trades looks like getting lower level prospects with some upside and wait for 3-4 years.

So, no near term building via trade, no FA that would turn this team into a contender, no blue chip prospects ready for 2015 … accept 2015 as a "non-contender" year and move anyone who will not be here in 2016 … good / bad / indifferent.
Harrison looking better and better every day.....If we're in salary dump mode, who is the most likely candidate in a trade for Harrison....      I know, I know....it's a trade that's not going to happen....but I like Harrison....if he came here, he would be a motivated player....

---------------------------------------------
Kennedy.





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:24 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



27TKO wrote:
FENN68 wrote: Looking at the Street and Headley trades in a different perspective …. the fact that the returns were not overwhelming and no near term "blue chip" players … suggests that the Padres realistically don't have any trade chips that would yield any near term / plus ML hitters. So building via trades looks like getting lower level prospects with some upside and wait for 3-4 years.

So, no near term building via trade, no FA that would turn this team into a contender, no blue chip prospects ready for 2015 … accept 2015 as a "non-contender" year and move anyone who will not be here in 2016 … good / bad / indifferent.
Harrison looking better and better every day.....If we're in salary dump mode, who is the most likely candidate in a trade for Harrison....      I know, I know....it's a trade that's not going to happen....but I like Harrison....if he came here, he would be a motivated player....
Why are you so stuck on Harrison? He's a solid utility player, but I'm not exactly sure why you see that as a need for us. Utility guys are the last thing you should be worried about bringing in. Plus, his subjective value to the Pirates right now is way higher than his real, objective value. His stats are nice, but he's been at the heart of some emotional wins for that team this season. He's an important part of their team chemistry. They're not going to move him, nor should we want him as a key part of any deal.
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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:33 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



sportwarrior wrote:
27TKO wrote:
FENN68 wrote: Looking at the Street and Headley trades in a different perspective …. the fact that the returns were not overwhelming and no near term "blue chip" players … suggests that the Padres realistically don't have any trade chips that would yield any near term / plus ML hitters. So building via trades looks like getting lower level prospects with some upside and wait for 3-4 years.

So, no near term building via trade, no FA that would turn this team into a contender, no blue chip prospects ready for 2015 … accept 2015 as a "non-contender" year and move anyone who will not be here in 2016 … good / bad / indifferent.
Harrison looking better and better every day.....If we're in salary dump mode, who is the most likely candidate in a trade for Harrison....      I know, I know....it's a trade that's not going to happen....but I like Harrison....if he came here, he would be a motivated player....
Why are you so stuck on Harrison? He's a solid utility player, but I'm not exactly sure why you see that as a need for us. Utility guys are the last thing you should be worried about bringing in. Plus, his subjective value to the Pirates right now is way higher than his real, objective value. His stats are nice, but he's been at the heart of some emotional wins for that team this season. He's an important part of their team chemistry. They're not going to move him, nor should we want him as a key part of any deal.
Well....because I don't see him as a, "Utility" player.  He's been used as one because he is blocked by other established players.  Also, you make a very good point...He IS a very important part of the teams chemistry....we need a little more of that, IMO.  The Pirates could use a pitcher, we could use a Harrison type player.  Now...having said that...you're right...most likely, we will not get him in a trade.  When Venable was allowed to play a full year in center, we got a glimpse of what he could do full time, when Headley had that tremendous second half with 30+ hr, all of us were pumped, when Gyorko was in a groove, we cheered him on.  As long as we are not going to go all in on a Stanton type player, then lets try for a Harrison, who IMO fits this FO mindset.....Just sayin...     Think: Seth Smith, Goebbert....to me Harrison profiles very similar to those two and we just extended Smith...

 

-----------------------–-----------------------------------------------------------------------Prospect I'm championing: Jerry Sullivan

Last edited 07/22/2014 2:45 PM by 27TKO

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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:37 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


I won't say worrying about chemistry on a team that's destined for a multi-year rebuild is a waste of time... but it's pretty much a waste of time. Chemistry is about as chicken/egg as you can get. Does it come from winning? Does winning come from chemistry? The reality is it's probably a mix of the two, and without one the other is meaningless.

So maybe Harrison is a heart-and-soul type player... but there's gotta be a core of a team for that to matter. We're not even close to having a core, making Harrison a waste of time.

EDIT: Plus, you might not see him as a utility player, but there is absolutely nothing in his major or minor league career to indicate he's anything but. Not a lot of power, decent speed, solid glove, decent bat... His greatest asset is his versatility.

He's a utility player.

Last edited 07/22/2014 2:40 PM by sportwarrior

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Posted: 07/22/2014 2:46 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 



sportwarrior wrote: I won't say worrying about chemistry on a team that's destined for a multi-year rebuild is a waste of time... but it's pretty much a waste of time. Chemistry is about as chicken/egg as you can get. Does it come from winning? Does winning come from chemistry? The reality is it's probably a mix of the two, and without one the other is meaningless.

So maybe Harrison is a heart-and-soul type player... but there's gotta be a core of a team for that to matter. We're not even close to having a core, making Harrison a waste of time.

EDIT: Plus, you might not see him as a utility player, but there is absolutely nothing in his major or minor league career to indicate he's anything but. Not a lot of power, decent speed, solid glove, decent bat... His greatest asset is his versatility.

He's a utility player.
Addendum:  My take is, that the FO really got burned by Quentin, big bucks that were lost due to injury.  I'm starting to think that the only way to stay competitive without putting everything into one player, is to have a group of players, that  are contact hitters, very good defensively, that can play multiple positions.  I mean....Look at Goebbert, Medica, Galvez, Nelson, Gyorko, and Grandal to name a few....Each of these players can play multiple positions fairly well.    This is what I mean when I say Harrison fits the profile.  What better way  to fend off the injury bug for a small to mid market team...

 

-----------------------–-----------------------------------------------------------------------Prospect I'm championing: Jerry Sullivan
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Posted: 07/22/2014 6:09 PM

Re: Building Via Trades. 


Well,our best player was deemed a "fourth outfielder" when we acquired him.
So,maybe an All Star Utility player can be our second best player?





Prospect I'm Championing.........Jordan Paroubeck

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