i dont get it. i keep seeing people say we need a catcher. i disagree with that completely. when we traded Gio, everyone was super excited about Norris, now after one year (not even a full year) everyone is ready to give up on him? he was the future backstop and everyone was excited when he got called up. give the guy a little more leash guys. he is only gonna get better. i agree he wasnt ready for the call up when he got it, but he is gaining experience now and is still projected to be a pretty darn good player. focus on SS!

I'm more concerned about his D than his bat.

He doesn't do anything well, he isn't even average at anything, he could learn, but he is lazy, there where way to many times he didn't run out an at bat, or back up a play,
he also reaches for balls in the dirt instead of getting his body in front of them, you
can't reward him for be lazy, he needs to be in the minors until he fixes these things

Giving up?? No.

The window to win with this club should be longer considering the age of the core group and contracts but you can never just assume it's goinbg to stay open. With the fact that the pitching is what it is having a better backstop would be helpful. Norris should be the future and current to a point but looking for a reliable experienced vetrean to help should be looked at, hard.

I don't know if people are giving up on him. It doesn't appear that Billy is giving up on him. Nonetheless, he simply has to play better. He has to hit a few more home runs, throw out a few more runners(although his throwing was good at times), and pick balls in the dirt better.

Lazy? Where do you see this? Maybe when it comes to shaving his face, but I've not heard this about his baseballing
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--- wmike1 wrote:

He doesn't do anything well, he isn't even average at anything, he could learn, but he is lazy, there where way to many times he didn't run out an at bat, or back up a play,
he also reaches for balls in the dirt instead of getting his body in front of them, you
can't reward him for be lazy, he needs to be in the minors until he fixes these things

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ericwantsbbd wrote:
Lazy? Where do you see this? Maybe when it comes to shaving his face, but I've not heard this about his baseballing
---------------------------------------------
--- wmike1 wrote:

He doesn't do anything well, he isn't even average at anything, he could learn, but he is lazy, there where way to many times he didn't run out an at bat, or back up a play,
he also reaches for balls in the dirt instead of getting his body in front of them, you
can't reward him for be lazy, he needs to be in the minors until he fixes these things

---------------------------------------------

I don't get this statement either.  I absolutely noticed no laziness.  This guy had a tough act to follow with re to defense, not to mention getting to know the staff (almost all rookies, mind you). It's been said many times, but I'll say it again.  A catcher's primary function is working with staff and defense.  It is not unusual at all .. unless you're a super star catcher ... to start a  career where offense is lagging.  The only knock I have on him at this time, is in throwing out runners.  My observation is that his defense ... namely blocking balls in the dirt, improved dramatically as the season went along.  A catcher has a great deal to learn ... compared to any other position.  I think he's coming along just fine.  This next season will tell us more.  Oh, and he does have power, along with decent speed ... for a catcher.  I never saw one thing to indicate he was lazy.  And he seems to have no fear in blocking the plate.  Catcher?  Hah!  This team's main concern right now is getting a good shortstop.  Including  their SD deal, yesterday, this team seems to have multiple utility infielders specifically at 2b and ss, no bonafide starters.  Rosales comes the closest and at this time is probably their best ss.  Right now the loss of Drew is looking huge.  Well into next season they'll know whether or not catching is still a need. I sure didn't see much to indicate it is at this point.

the problem with a longer contention window always comes down to the stadium and finances.

they have at least 2 more yrs with cespedes to make this happen. once he'll get to his final 3rd yr , we'll either hear about trade rumors or inability to sign long term. yes, the core group is young overall so that helps. Issue is the next wave of prospect have their own issues too. I dont see a legit star on the way. Maybe Russell but he's 3 or 4 yrs away. Plus im sure we'll see some players do well and some not play up to expectations (like suzuki, buck, barton, gallagher, fdls, taylor to name a few in previous rebuilds).


A's need to continue to be aggresive in int'l market and drafting. Produce stars not the limited upside avg/above avg players we had seen and been disappointed with from mid 2000's to 2011. And this AL West division might be tough for awhile. Rangers/Angels will continue to be high payrolls. Mariners are on the way up. And even astros new gm when he was with stl had amazing draft and development, they'll get back on track.

Also we've heard A's are willing to increase payroll for 2013. But so far they havent. It will obviously go up with some arby cases. But fuentes, braden, mccarthy, gomes, drew optionetc their contracts are off the books. They did take on chris young contract so the money is basically equal to or lower. I only see them adding payroll based on mccarthy or drew resigns, but both look like long shorts at the moment. The team roster ovverall looks intact other than SS and maybe some additional veteran reliever/short term sp help

I look at toronto for example, they just increased their 2013 payroll to 120 mill ranger in bsically a week. I dont see that happening in our lifetime as A's fans unless we get that new stadium or owners who go all in financially

I was never super pumped on Norris. I think he'll have a solid career as a back up... Some years forced in to a starting role. I thought it was weird to trade Suzuki when they did and I don't really see Norris being an upgrade over what we've seen from Zook the past couple seasons. He'll never hit for a high average... Never be an elite defender. He'll play a passable catcher but the A's can do better and don't have the time to wait around.

then what are their options?

sign a righty platoon partner for kottarras? someone like shoppach or olivo short term?
this would force kottarras to play at least 3 or 4 times a week, not ideal.

trade for a catcher like salty from red sox. red sox just signed a mid 30's yr old ross and have lavarnway. they are looking to sell high on salty, but hope the A's arent that team unless its for spare parts

A's have nothing in AAA at catcher, they'll be likely signing another milb free agent to fill in (powell, recker reunion?). Stassi, Freitas, and Taylor if they have solid 2013 seasons maybe you can be optimistic but they may not be ready until late 2014 or so.

Right now they have no other immediate options other than Norris. I'm sure if you made him available through trade, a decent amount of teams would be interested.

arly2380 wrote: the problem with a longer contention window always comes down to the stadium and finances.

they have at least 2 more yrs with cespedes to make this happen. once he'll get to his final 3rd yr , we'll either hear about trade rumors or inability to sign long term. yes, the core group is young overall so that helps. Issue is the next wave of prospect have their own issues too. I dont see a legit star on the way. Maybe Russell but he's 3 or 4 yrs away. Plus im sure we'll see some players do well and some not play up to expectations (like suzuki, buck, barton, gallagher, fdls, taylor to name a few in previous rebuilds).


A's need to continue to be aggresive in int'l market and drafting. Produce stars not the limited upside avg/above avg players we had seen and been disappointed with from mid 2000's to 2011. And this AL West division might be tough for awhile. Rangers/Angels will continue to be high payrolls. Mariners are on the way up. And even astros new gm when he was with stl had amazing draft and development, they'll get back on track.

Also we've heard A's are willing to increase payroll for 2013. But so far they havent. It will obviously go up with some arby cases. But fuentes, braden, mccarthy, gomes, drew optionetc their contracts are off the books. They did take on chris young contract so the money is basically equal to or lower. I only see them adding payroll based on mccarthy or drew resigns, but both look like long shorts at the moment. The team roster ovverall looks intact other than SS and maybe some additional veteran reliever/short term sp help

I look at toronto for example, they just increased their 2013 payroll to 120 mill ranger in bsically a week. I dont see that happening in our lifetime as A's fans unless we get that new stadium or owners who go all in financially

I sincerely hope Russell isn't 3 or 4 years away.

I don't think Norris can give the A's adequate production for the A's right now. Russell isn't ready for the majors, either. That doesn't mean anyone has given up on these guys just because they aren't major league ready now.

I think the A's should try to find a starting catcher, make Kottaras the backup catcher and start Norris in AAA. If Norris plays well in AAA, you can always bring him back.

If this team had lost 90+ games like they were supposed to, nobody would be complaining about Norris' performance in 2012. But with a surprising chance to contend over the next couple years, I think many of us see catcher as a spot to upgrade with a veteran who can put us closer to another division title, while letting Norris start at AAA and earn his way back. I doubt anyone has written Norris off completely; it's really just a timing thing.

I think people are overestimating how good C's are these days - there are only about 9 catchers who are okay. The rest pretty much suck at various levels. Those who are good aren't exactly available. I'd take my chances with norris improvement over something that sucks already and is known - Olive for instance.

Norris was truly terrible both at the plate and behind it for the last couple months of the season. However his hitting and his defense in particular looked excellent when he first came up, so I wonder if fatigue or injury was affecting his late season performance? Because of the glimpse of potential he showed when he first came up and his youth (he'll still only be 24 next season) I think he certainly deserves a chance to continue his development at the MLB level. It's just important to have a decent backup and I think Beane might consider acquiring an upgrade at the trade deadline if the team is in the race and Norris hasn't shown any improvement.

ericwantsbbd wrote: I think people are overestimating how good C's are these days - there are only about 9 catchers who are okay. The rest pretty much such at various levels. Those who are good aren't exactly available. I'd take my chances with norris improvement over something that sucks already and is known - Olive for instance.

Agree.  Out of 30 teams, off the top of my head I can only think of about 4 ... Joe Mauer, Weiters, Posey, Yadier Molina ... who are exellent defensive catchers who are also very good offensive catchers. And it seems to me, it took a number of seasons before Molina's offense could be rated very good.  I'm sure I overlooded a couple.  But these guys are the cream of the crop and are getting big bucks (at least Posey & Weiters will be) for their talent.  The last two catchers we had who even came close were Steinbach and Hernandez.  Again, it seems I'm probably overlooking someone, but A's have to go way back to find an excellent all around catcher ... Ray Fosse.  And, of course, dipsh!t Pete Rose pretty much stunted Fosse's career.

At fangraphs, the A's ranked 28th out of 30 teams in catcher WAR. And people still feel like the A's can't upgrade at catcher or that Norris/Kottaras are good enough?

No. Certainly the position could be upgraded, but I think the better question is exactly where you find that upgrade? What's on the market through FA is pretty much older Catchers who suck. I think Norris has pedigree to be average (which is still awful by C standards) and he's still young to in theory his best years are ahead of him. 

So I think the question really is 1. trade for something 2. sign an older catcher who sucks 3. stick with the young catcher who sucks, but might improve.

Bottom line:  There are a considerable number of teams looking for that good all around catcher or just an upgrade on what they have.  Doesn't look like any at this level anyway, are available.

voxhoo wrote: At fangraphs, the A's ranked 28th out of 30 teams in catcher WAR. And people still feel like the A's can't upgrade at catcher or that Norris/Kottaras are good enough?

There are only 13 teams that had 2 WAR more than the A's at catcher and 8 that had 3+ WAR over the A's. Further, the A's don't have the trading chips to get into the upper echelon of catchers. Realistically, no I don't see how the A's can upgrade at catcher.