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Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread

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Posted: 2/17/2008 12:42 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



BleedPinstripes wrote:

The biggest problem with your assertion is that you are basing it upon the fact that if he told the truth about a, b, and c, then he must be telling the truth about d.

It is simply ludicrous logic.
as opposed to someone who lied about a, b, and c?

Posted: 2/17/2008 12:46 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



inger wrote:
AutomatedTeller wrote:
bailsbud wrote:


AT:


...

And this is coming from someone who never has liked Clemens, and is not going to be shocked if he is eventually proven to be lying...but I still have to wonder why he would put his family through all of this if he was guilty...

Maybe because he's a ego maniac who doesn't give a sh*t about anyone but Clemens...He's toast done put a fork in him ..
Not even bailsbud can save him and God knows he's trying very hard to stop the tide coming in.
Unless McNamee recants and says I lied about Clemens and the chance of that is about 0.0% if Clemens does take McNamee to court that make blow up completely in his face if Pettitte gets a subpoena and has to take the stand what then for Clemens If Andy sinks him ,is he going to say Andy still misremember BS answers like that won't fly. don't forget everything Andy said under oath is on file it won't change because Clemens and his lawyers don't like it.

Posted: 2/17/2008 10:04 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



yank5k wrote:
inger wrote:
AutomatedTeller wrote:
bailsbud wrote:


AT:


...

And this is coming from someone who never has liked Clemens, and is not going to be shocked if he is eventually proven to be lying...but I still have to wonder why he would put his family through all of this if he was guilty...

Maybe because he's a ego maniac who doesn't give a sh*t about anyone but Clemens...He's toast done put a fork in him ..
Not even bailsbud can save him and God knows he's trying very hard to stop the tide coming in.
Unless McNamee recants and says I lied about Clemens and the chance of that is about 0.0% if Clemens does take McNamee to court that make blow up completely in his face if Pettitte gets a subpoena and has to take the stand what then for Clemens If Andy sinks him ,is he going to say Andy still misremember BS answers like that won't fly. don't forget everything Andy said under oath is on file it won't change because Clemens and his lawyers don't like it.
Who could doubt that he is an egomaniac? It is hard for me to believe that he doesn't care about his wife and kids. That is a very deep cut to thrust upon a man unless you have intimate knowledge of his home life. Now there may be some stress on his marital situation, I know I would not be happy to know that McNamee was in the bedroom with her ass bared, but the kids should be another matter. (Can I say ass on here???)

In the court of circumstantial evidence, Roger has been tried and is ripe for the lynching. In the reality of the legal system, he is far from being proven guilty.
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Posted: 2/17/2008 10:16 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



yank5k wrote:
Maybe because he's a ego maniac who doesn't give a sh*t about anyone but Clemens...He's toast done put a fork in him ..


And here is the second reason I defend Clemens.  Not only are you roasting him without sufficient evidence you are letting it be known that the reason for it is your dislike of Clemens. Sorry, but mere dislike of someone is not grounds to demonstrate their guilt in a matter.  That's my problem here.  All the Clemens haters are shouting from the hill tops that he is guilty by relying on evidence from unreliable sources.


The poster who referenced the Salem Witch Trials were closer to correct than they may have realized.  Lots of parallels here.
Hyperbole is the greatest word ever.
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Posted: 2/17/2008 11:56 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



uhhsam wrote:

as opposed to someone who lied about a, b, and c?


It makes no difference. You have to treat them as independent events with no relevance to each other.

Each name in the report needs to be individually investigated. You can't look at the first 10 and decide the guilt/innocence of the rest from them.



“Have faith in the Yankees my son. Think of the great DiMaggio.”

Posted: 2/17/2008 1:31 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



BleedPinstripes wrote:
uhhsam wrote:

as opposed to someone who lied about a, b, and c?


It makes no difference. You have to treat them as independent events with no relevance to each other.

Each name in the report needs to be individually investigated. You can't look at the first 10 and decide the guilt/innocence of the rest from them.

Yes, and the first lesson learned in any class of logic is that if C occurred after A and B, it is not necessarily so that A and B caused C. That is the greatest fault of any logic, whether it should be the logic of guilt, or wherever else it may be applied.

Posted: 2/17/2008 3:56 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



Canseco was vilified and he's a scoundrel but he did more to bring steroid use in baseball to the front burner than anyone, scoundrels aren't  nice people but McNamee is yet to been proven a liar about any player he has named since Andy, Knobby and even
Clemens wife say yes he told the truth you saying he's a proven liar doesn't exactly fit the bill when it comes to naming players who cheated.  in the end the only lie that will really matter is did he or did he not lie about players he named  using steroids.
 Add to that I watched the hearing and drew my own conclusions, If Clemens is telling the truth is Andy lying ?
You feel strongly about it but so do others is everybody who disagrees with you a Clemens haters?  don't you think other people can have a different opinion than yours about it without being a Clemens hater.. you have polls that show up to 70-80 % think Clemens is lying are they all Clemens haters?

OJ was found not guilty public opinion didn't agree with that conclusion in the end that is what will happen to Clemens if most people think he didn't use steroids he will be in good standing if on the other hand if most people think he did he won't be in good standing nothing you or I say will alter that fact.

Posted: 2/17/2008 4:59 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



yank5k wrote:
Canseco was vilified and he's a scoundrel but he did more to bring steroid use in baseball to the front burner than anyone, scoundrels aren't  nice people but McNamee is yet to been proven a liar about any player he has named since Andy, Knobby and even
Clemens wife say yes he told the truth you saying he's a proven liar doesn't exactly fit the bill when it comes to naming players who cheated.  in the end the only lie that will really matter is did he or did he not lie about players he named  using steroids.
 Add to that I watched the hearing and drew my own conclusions, If Clemens is telling the truth is Andy lying ?
You feel strongly about it but so do others is everybody who disagrees with you a Clemens haters?  don't you think other people can have a different opinion than yours about it without being a Clemens hater.. you have polls that show up to 70-80 % think Clemens is lying are they all Clemens haters?

OJ was found not guilty public opinion didn't agree with that conclusion in the end that is what will happen to Clemens if most people think he didn't use steroids he will be in good standing if on the other hand if most people think he did he won't be in good standing nothing you or I say will alter that fact.


There are more Clemens haters than there are Clemens lovers, that is for sure, so the polls will reflect that to some extent. Are all of the 70-80% haters? No, but it is one thing to say "do you think" he did it vs. DID he do it, and finally can you prove it in a court of law. The example you make of OJ is both good and bad...nobody killed anybody here, but I do understand what you are trying to convey.

We just can't lock him up and throw away the keys based on what has come forth so far. Even if that is what he deserves.

Posted: 2/18/2008 12:47 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


My point is unless we get indisputable evidence either way Clemens will be judged in the court of public opinion at this time the court of public opinion is running heavily against him, that might change any day or never change

If it doesn't change and the people who vote for the HOF put him in the same basket as Mcgwire who was a almost certain HOFer and  has never been proven to take steroids but his appearance before Congress was a disaster then like him Clemens may never see the HOF or not for a very long time.
In the end that is what will matter as far as his legacy goes if he doesn't make the HOF it will be because the voters think he cheated because otherwise he's a 1st round shoo in when he's eligible. so it may be 5 or more years from now before we know the true fallout and then it won't matter what we think it will be the HOF voters who decide his future in the annals of baseball.
Until then some think he cheated some think he didn't this thread won't decide his fate. unless things change and that is always a possibility but that it isn't a slam dunk it will be in Clemens favor either way, it may get a lot worse it may get a lot better for him time will tell. But we're not judging him on what may happen the opinions formed are on what we know so far we just don't agree on that.
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Posted: 2/18/2008 3:05 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


Pettitte press conference live @ MLB.com. Just follow the link

MLB.com

Posted: 2/22/2008 8:05 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


There is now indisputable evidence Clemens lied before congress and under oath.  The NY Daily News has obtained photographs showing Clemens at the party he made such a big deal of claiming he didn't attend.
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Posted: 2/22/2008 1:24 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


Report: Man has photo of Clemens at disputed Canseco party

The 1998 party at Jose Canseco's house in Miami may have started out as a gathering of friends and family. It has turned into an event worthy of congressional testimony and a source of "evidence."

There is a photo of Roger Clemens at Canseco's house during the June 1998 party, according to the New York Daily News -- a photo that would contradict Clemens' sworn testimony that he never attended the party.

Richard Emery, one of the lawyers for Clemens' former trainer, Brian McNamee, said he was aware of the existence of the photo. "We have reason to believe it's reliable evidence," Emery told the Daily News. "We believe there's photographic evidence that shows Clemens was at a party he says he wasn't at."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/...tory?id=3258678

----------------
See ya Clemens!

Posted: 2/22/2008 2:02 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


My problem in this thread has been with posters saying he's mot guilty when to me that was putting your heart ahead of your head

I firmly believe Clemens is guilty , however putting that aside for a minute I also believe Bud messed up with his Mitchell report  if you're going to investigate baseball it can't be with two ex trainers one from the Yanks and one from the Mets.
I don't even understand why Pettitte had to mention a conversation with Roger when in the beginning he couldn't remember how many times he took HGH just how was that conversation ever going to be proved? Andy sold Roger out with that statement.

Clemens is going to be forever tarnished I don't know how much he relied on his lawyers for his tactics but they end up costing him so much more than a yes I took HGH in whatever year he chooses to say might have minimized the cost certainly can't be worse than what is happening now..
This wasn't about baseball it was about a few players Bud screwed up he has his best player Bonds under a Fed rap and he has his best pitcher thrown to the wolves and may also face a FED rap,  while others just sing along and hope they never get found out ,it is to me a very bad system if McNamee wasn't caught up in this but another "trainer"we may be reading about how any team USA had players on PED's

A true investigation would have been far more baseball wide than just relying on the word of two rouge trainers . Clemens appears to be a pitcher on PED's but just how many batters did he face who were on Ped's?  a high number would be my guess.
I think Bud should just say because the entire era has a taint to it singling out a few players is not the right thing to do and swear in the future testing will be of a high caliber and no one will be forewarned as to when they get tested.
Then say that baseball will not punish those caught in this investigation who never failed a drug test and think their records should be judged on the fact that so many were doing PED's it it's hard to say what advantage anyone player had.

Posted: 2/22/2008 3:30 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


If Bud and had acted earlier and pardoned all of the sins of the steroid era, Congress could have stayed out of this. Now a couple of players may go to jail due to their involvement in a widespread situation. Of course, if both of those players had told the truth in the beginning, this would be playing out differently as well. They may have done so if the pardon was in place.  Bonds and Clemens were not only protecting themselves but trying to screen out the sins of all of their co-workers. It was and is a tough situation. Sad, so sad...

Posted: 2/22/2008 6:55 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



inger wrote: Bonds and Clemens were not only protecting themselves but trying to screen out the sins of all of their co-workers. It was and is a tough situation. Sad, so sad...
Attributing anything less than purely selfish motives to these two men's respecitive decisions not to tell the truth under oath is what is sad.  I guarantee that Roger and Barry were not thinking "I have to lie to protect my Band of Brothers."  In Roger's case, he was thinking "Everyone must think I am the greatest person ever born," and in Barry's case he was thinking "Everyone must think I am the greatest person ever born and the SF Giants must pay me a gazillion dollars"

Stop apologizing for these clowns, will you?

Posted: 2/22/2008 9:12 PM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



blizzardbaum wrote:
inger wrote: Bonds and Clemens were not only protecting themselves but trying to screen out the sins of all of their co-workers. It was and is a tough situation. Sad, so sad...
Attributing anything less than purely selfish motives to these two men's respecitive decisions not to tell the truth under oath is what is sad.  I guarantee that Roger and Barry were not thinking "I have to lie to protect my Band of Brothers."  In Roger's case, he was thinking "Everyone must think I am the greatest person ever born," and in Barry's case he was thinking "Everyone must think I am the greatest person ever born and the SF Giants must pay me a gazillion dollars"

Stop apologizing for these clowns, will you?
I don't doubt for one minute that Clemens and Bonds have huge egos, and think of themselves first. I also know that when a group of people have a dirty little secret like the MLB players do there is a code among them that you will regret breaking. There is no apology, as the code is just as bad as the crime. So I guess I am sorry for making you think I was sorry for those sorry jerks...

The secondary reason they did not tell the truth is that they think they are bulletproof. When you live for forty years with cops pulling you over for speeding and letting you go for an autograph you get dumb enough to think everybody will let you get away with everything.

Posted: 2/23/2008 9:37 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 


you really think a guy willing to throw his agent and wife under the bus the way roger clemens did at the congressional hearing cares about some "honor amongst thieves" code he has with fellow baseball players??  make no mistake... roger clemens cares ONLY about roger clemens.

Posted: 2/23/2008 11:06 AM

Re: Clemens - Trial, Roid/HGH Thread 



blizzardbaum wrote: you really think a guy willing to throw his agent and wife under the bus the way roger clemens did at the congressional hearing cares about some "honor amongst thieves" code he has with fellow baseball players??  make no mistake... roger clemens cares ONLY about roger clemens.

OK...if it is that important to you, I agree. (lol)
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