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Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers

Posted: 12/6/2012 12:53 PM

Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


Let's start a 'Twins Dump' thread for all the dumb moves they are making (IMO)
First they give away Span for an untested (yet highly touted single A pitcher)
Now they are giving away their regular center fielder for an best 4th starter with a lousy 2012 record, coming off major surgery and a AA pitcher who was 10-13 with a nearly 5.00 ERA. Nice!

We sure know how to fleece the other team!ohlord Another shining prospect (with a less than stellar track record so far) and Worley, who had a good 2011--the got hurt and had a not so good 2012. But the Twins thrive on injury-rehab pitchers so why not dump your everyday center fielders.
Revere was solid in every respect except perhaps his throwing arm...which I think was grossly exaggerated. He almost always made contact; and he stole a lot of bases. For this, we get a rehabbing pitcher and a AA prospect.

Tell me why I should be the least bit happy about this trade.

Based on this, I can only imagine what they will get when they offload Morneau and possibly Willingham.

Ryan must have a plan...and he sure isn't making it clear what it is.

Two crappy trades so far. (yeah I KNOW all about Meyer's potential...but right now, thats all it is) I wonder what the Red Wings will look like?
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Posted: 12/6/2012 1:08 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


The Span deal alone didn't bother me (I'm not going to rehash that argument), but the combination of the two trades is troubling.  They have taken a position of strength (CF/leadoff) and made it into a glaring weakness while only marginally improving the situation in the rotation (if that).  I'll still reserve judgment on the offseason until it is all finished but I have no idea what Ryan is thinking right now.  It's not like there are many quality free-agent leadoff men out there right now, so I'm sure Ryan is simply going to go with what he already has (which, frankly, is a real crapshoot).

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Posted: 12/6/2012 2:26 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


VT--its a good point and its the one that has me the most perplexed. Yes, we might have been able to give TR a pass for the Span trade )assuming the everyday team stayed strong...but in combination with this bizarre move....I don't know. I had no idea they weren't planning on keeping Revere. And what they got for him wasn't exactly 'stellar'.eek1
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Posted: 12/6/2012 2:40 PM

RE: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


Perhaps this is just me being shocked and angry about this trade but if these pitchers do pan out and are actually good, they'll end up with some team hat will pay money to put a winning team on the field. Maybe, that's a big maybe, this trade will help us in the distant future but right now it seems like a race to worst team in the MLB.
 Meyer and May will be top of the rotation starters by 2015. 
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Posted: 12/6/2012 4:04 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


I'm pretty sure we got the better end of the deal, here. We gave up Revere, who although he is freakishly fast, is the type of player that is a dime a dozen. We got Worley, who is a proven MLB pitcher and we also picked up another prospect that looks to be pretty good. We got 2 pitchers who could end up being in our rotation for one Ben Revere, who although is freakishly fast, has never hit a HR and had a nice year this year, but hasn't proven that he will do that his entire career. I wish him the best, and I think he'll fit in nicely in Philly and the NL, but this trade is a steal for us.
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Posted: 12/6/2012 4:19 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


Highly disturbing and I'm going to leave it at that for awhile... By the way, this is exactly the type of trade I thought we could have pulled off for Span when (when several thought I was nuts - Jim Bowden must have some TR dirt and/or pics).
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Posted: 12/6/2012 10:22 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



beast10 wrote: I'm pretty sure we got the better end of the deal, here. We gave up Revere, who although he is freakishly fast, is the type of player that is a dime a dozen. We got Worley, who is a proven MLB pitcher and we also picked up another prospect that looks to be pretty good. We got 2 pitchers who could end up being in our rotation for one Ben Revere, who although is freakishly fast, has never hit a HR and had a nice year this year, but hasn't proven that he will do that his entire career. I wish him the best, and I think he'll fit in nicely in Philly and the NL, but this trade is a steal for us.
wow--amazing how differently we can view this trade! I don't think there is a way in hell we got the better of this trade. Did you watch Revere this past season? Dime a dozen? Sorry. no.
Worley--proven major league pitcher? For one season.  Last year elbow problems shut him down early and before that he was terrible. So who knows whether he can duplicate 2011 or not. He's a risk.
May--he had an awful year in 2012. Only one season in AA. Numbers aren't impressive at all. Gave up lots of HR's; lots of walks. He is more of a risk than the guy we got for Span IMO. Phils might be saying they gave up a lot and if Worley comes around then perhaps....perhaps..the trade will benefit both teams. But losing both Span and Revere is nuts, unless they have something else up their sleeve.

So far..looks like the  team is writing off 2013.
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Posted: 12/6/2012 10:27 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


Way too early to call this a bad move.  Revere is over valued in Minnesota.  This is typical of course for any team's prospects.  We have all harped on his weak arm and wondered if he could ever be a decent outfielder.  I agree with Beast to some degree.  I'm not calling this a steal, but I see plenty of upside for us.  Also, the Phillies staff has 3 #1's so being their #4 or 5 isn't bad.  Coming off an injury, he is probably expected to bounce back.  I'm hoping the scouts did their homework on his progress but I suspect they did.  May has some great K's / 9 numbers in the minors.  Also low hits per IP.  He is still wild but I think at the AA level, there is still plenty of time to develop into a potential ace.

Like I said in an earlier post, I think Mastroianni brings us better defense than Span or Revere and still has room to improve.  He too is freekishly fast but has a strong arm and a little pop in his bat.  I like the move.

Wouldn't say we're weak at centerfield now after losing Span and Revere.  Ok, we're not as deep but the depth was rediculous.

If they need more, Eddie Rosario could move back to centerfield, but honestly, I don't think we need that.
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Posted: 12/6/2012 10:38 PM

RE: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


perhaps one or two of you have harped on his 'weak arm'. thats not universally agreed upon. As far as how he plays CF--how can anyone say he was 'overvalued'. He reached just about everything hit in his vicinity and more. the guy rarely fanned and stole 40 bases. He flirted with .300 for a good portion of the season. If anyone should be 'overvalued' its Worley...he had an 11-3 season followed by a 6-9 season with a bloated ERA and elbow problems. So you have to only hope he can bounce back. We are getting a question mark and the Phils are getting a very good leadoff hitter and excellent fielding CFer.

I know some guys really want to give the Twins credit for their trades...but so far just seems they could have done better. So hey, if Mastroianni fails...we've still got those two stiffs Benson and Tosoni...who can't hit their way out of an open air porch. I really don't get this trade at all.
If Worely wins 20 and May pitches well for Rochester, I'll gladly start preparing the crow...but I'm not real confident at the moment,
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Posted: 12/6/2012 10:51 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


Who said anything about Tosoni.  He's not a prospect.  he isn't going to ever be brought up ever again.  I suspect he'll be released as soon as he's run out of years.  Hicks, Nate Roberts, Oswaldo Arcia, Byron Buxton, Eddie Rosario, Max Kepler.  There is lots of depth.  And I know Matroianni isn't a prospect but he's plenty good defensively.  He'll strengthen the defense up the middle and has a solid arm and just as fast and can steal just as many bases.
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Posted: 12/7/2012 6:54 AM

RE: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


I mention him only in the context that he was one of those can't miss prospects a couple years ago....any of the others you named in the above post could end up just like him...which is why I am always cautious about putting too much faith in prospects only when trading away everyday players. I agree, Tosoni should be released yesterday. And this is an important year for Benson and Hicks as well. I know the Twins are high on Arcia, Rosario and Buxton--but they were equally as high on guys like Restovich, Sears, and Ryan a few years back..they were ga-ga over Dozier...Icould go on...but the point is...they are prospects....and many of them just don't do as well as their resume suggests.
We'll see though.
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Posted: 12/7/2012 2:23 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


I hear an awful lot of skepticism regarding Ryan's moves.  Of course every move will be scrutinized immediately, purely for conjecture's sake.  I believe much of this negativism is residual pessimism from the Bill Smith era (hardly an era, thank goodness) and Ryan has had a few past transgressions as well (sure wish he made any of the rumored deals with Boston for Johan rather than the Mets).  I hope we enter 2013 with some optimism and anticipation.  Remember, we are still the Minnesota Twins and for all the money the Pohlad's have, they still are running a business and the fact is, revenue for any team in the upper midwest will always be miniscule when compared to teams such as the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels.  The fact that we pushed salaries well into the 100 million range a few years ago makes me optimistic about the front office's dedication to winning.  Unfortunately, that money might have been a year too late after losing Torii and Johan.  Nevertheless, getting a new stadium, expanding payroll and returning Ryan to the GM role are big positives for the Twins' future.  The farm system is getting much stronger, pitching talent has been replenished at the expense of two very popular players but as Ryan has said, the work isn't done.  Most promising this offseason in my eyes is the fact that T.R. has pulled the trigger a couple times already.  I truly believe he has taken the 90+ losses to heart and clearly understands that jolting this organization with some moves is clearly warranted.

I'm on board. I'm hoping that the rest of you hop on the band wagon too.  Go Twins!
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Posted: 12/9/2012 12:32 AM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



ETCDelawareTwinsFan wrote: I hear an awful lot of skepticism regarding Ryan's moves.  Of course every move will be scrutinized immediately, purely for conjecture's sake.  I believe much of this negativism is residual pessimism from the Bill Smith era (hardly an era, thank goodness) and Ryan has had a few past transgressions as well (sure wish he made any of the rumored deals with Boston for Johan rather than the Mets).  I hope we enter 2013 with some optimism and anticipation.  Remember, we are still the Minnesota Twins and for all the money the Pohlad's have, they still are running a business and the fact is, revenue for any team in the upper midwest will always be miniscule when compared to teams such as the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels.  The fact that we pushed salaries well into the 100 million range a few years ago makes me optimistic about the front office's dedication to winning.  Unfortunately, that money might have been a year too late after losing Torii and Johan.  Nevertheless, getting a new stadium, expanding payroll and returning Ryan to the GM role are big positives for the Twins' future.  The farm system is getting much stronger, pitching talent has been replenished at the expense of two very popular players but as Ryan has said, the work isn't done.  Most promising this offseason in my eyes is the fact that T.R. has pulled the trigger a couple times already.  I truly believe he has taken the 90+ losses to heart and clearly understands that jolting this organization with some moves is clearly warranted.

I'm on board. I'm hoping that the rest of you hop on the band wagon too.  Go Twins!
If every Twin fan that actually resided in the state of Minnesota thought like this, the organization wouldn't really have to put a competitive product on the field...

just keep TR employed and that would give enough incentive to the fans to stay in a hypnotic-like state to fork over their money and walk like zombies to their seats and clap as if programmed and continue to keep the faith, despite two consecutive last-place seasons. 

Glad you're on board.

Last edited 12/9/2012 12:33 AM by brian450

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Posted: 12/9/2012 7:14 AM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


We aren't the Yankees.  Move to New York if you want high priced free agents.  BTW, it's just a game.  Entertainment?  Have to fork over money like Zombies?  No one has to.  I think it's still a free country for at least a few more years.  Communism hasn't set in, yet.  Get a life.
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Posted: 12/9/2012 8:06 AM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



ETCDelawareTwinsFan wrote: I hear an awful lot of skepticism regarding Ryan's moves.  Of course every move will be scrutinized immediately, purely for conjecture's sake.  I believe much of this negativism is residual pessimism from the Bill Smith era (hardly an era, thank goodness) and Ryan has had a few past transgressions as well (sure wish he made any of the rumored deals with Boston for Johan rather than the Mets).  I hope we enter 2013 with some optimism and anticipation.  Remember, we are still the Minnesota Twins and for all the money the Pohlad's have, they still are running a business and the fact is, revenue for any team in the upper midwest will always be miniscule when compared to teams such as the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Angels.  The fact that we pushed salaries well into the 100 million range a few years ago makes me optimistic about the front office's dedication to winning.  Unfortunately, that money might have been a year too late after losing Torii and Johan.  Nevertheless, getting a new stadium, expanding payroll and returning Ryan to the GM role are big positives for the Twins' future.  The farm system is getting much stronger, pitching talent has been replenished at the expense of two very popular players but as Ryan has said, the work isn't done.  Most promising this offseason in my eyes is the fact that T.R. has pulled the trigger a couple times already.  I truly believe he has taken the 90+ losses to heart and clearly understands that jolting this organization with some moves is clearly warranted.

I'm on board. I'm hoping that the rest of you hop on the band wagon too.  Go Twins!
Here is the way I see it;  if Ryan is going into rebuild mode, I can understand that. I'm not as down on the idea of rebuilding as brian and insagt are because every team (especially ones in smaller markets) have to endure it from time to time.  Hell, even the Red Sox are having to go through it right now and somewhat surprisingly,  the majority of their hard-to-please fans are all in favor of a proper rebuild that could take a season or two.  That said, I just wish he would be honest about going into rebuild mode as opposed to trying to convince us all that he is trying to put together a competive product for 2013.  I give Ryan credit for improving the pitching depth in the minor league system (which was badly needed), but after the Revere deal, I do share in the belief that he didn't do much to improve the MLB team for 2013.  He turned a position of strength (CF/leadoff) into a glaring weakness while, at best, marginally improving the starting rotation with the addition of Worley.   As we speak, the number of quality pitchers on the open market are drying up, so the Twins will probably end up with some bargain-basement stiffs in the rotation.  Throw in the fact the most viable option in CF is now Mastroianni and I'm not feeling great about the Twins' chances for competing in 2013.   


Bottom line:  My prediction is that he will add one more pitcher, giving them a rotation of Worley,  Diamond, Pitcher "X", and two guys from within the system.  If that happens, it will be enough to make them into a team that hovers around the .500 mark, but not enough to make them overly competetive.

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Posted: 12/9/2012 8:31 AM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



TwinsFaninVT wrote:
understand that. I'm not as down on the idea of rebuilding as brian and insagt are because every team (especially ones in smaller markets) have to endure it from time to time.  Hell, even the Red Sox are having to go through it right now and somewhat surprisingly,  the majority of their hard-to-please fans are all in favor of a proper rebuild that could take a season or two.  That said, I just wish he would be honest about going into rebuild mode as opposed to trying to convince us all that he is trying to put together a competive product for 2013.  I give Ryan credit for improving the pitching depth in the minor league system (which was badly needed), but after the Revere deal, I do share in the belief that he didn't do much to improve the MLB team for 2013.  He turned a position of strength (CF/leadoff) into a glaring weakness while, at best, marginally improving the starting rotation with the addition of Worley.   As we speak, the number of quality pitchers on the open market are drying up, so the Twins will probably end up with some bargain-basement stiffs in the rotation.  Throw in the fact the most viable option in CF is now Mastroianni and I'm not feeling great about the Twins' chances for competing in 2013.   


Bottom line:  My prediction is that he will add one more pitcher, giving them a rotation of Worley,  Diamond, Pitcher "X", and two guys from within the system.  If that happens, it will be enough to make them into a team that hovers around the .500 mark, but not enough to make them overly competetive.
Agreed but we've had teams slotted for #4 in the division and have won before.  Never sell this team short if they get guys firing on all cylinders or pay Twins style small ball.  Rarely are we ever favorites but we've won more than our fair share (I hate that phrase) of division titles.  Getting competitive while giving some young guys a chance to prematurely hit their ceilings, is about as good as we get for 2013.  With that in mind, it will be fun to watch Hicks patrol CF and perhaps Sano might even be the guy pushing Plouffe (yeah, I know but maybe by September)  Maybe Dozier does better as a second baseman.  Maybe Florimon proves he can play an everyday SS.  I think they should give Mauer some reps at third base.  Maybe Parmalee can play at third with Arcia playing some RF.  Whatever it is, without pitching, we don't have a shot at all.
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Posted: 12/9/2012 10:07 AM

RE: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 


my gripe about 'rebuilding' is that in today's sports environment, it doesn't have to take years to accomplish. So the very expression allows management to drag feet and make excuses. (I know that may sound extreme but I'm just trying to make the point)
While the Twins have won division titles in the past when perhaps no one predicted them, right at this moment..they are coming off two horrific seasons with little end in sight for 2013.A lot of the money the owners have spent have gone to Mauer and to a lesser degree (but not insignificant) Morneau. Can't have only 2 players earning the lions share and remain competitive unless you are willing to spend a ton more.

So far we have acquired two pitching prospects and one potential rotation starter in exchange for 2 very decent everyday players. I'm not sure thats nearly enough to get excited about. Ryan had better have a lot more to do before April.

I'm not against 'rebuilding' per se...but when you are the bottom feeders two straight years, you have to do more to boost the big club to keep the fans coming out to the ballpark.
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Posted: 12/9/2012 10:55 AM

RE: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



insagt1 wrote: my gripe about 'rebuilding' is that in today's sports environment, it doesn't have to take years to accomplish. So the very expression allows management to drag feet and make excuses. (I know that may sound extreme but I'm just trying to make the point)
I agree with that and I will certainly not be happy if they are in a perpetual state of rebuilding like the Royals.  That said,  two straight last-place finishes and no-depth in the farm tells me one thing;  whatever it was they were doing simply wasn't working and some degree of rebuilding was needed.  Personally, I think rows of empty seats at Target Field might not be the worst thing in the world as that will hopefully light a fire under management's butts to fast track any efforts towards making this team competetive.  If fans fill the stadium after management makes a bunch of half-ass moves to get the team to 85 wins, then they are basically giving management the stamp of approval for mediocrity.

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Posted: 12/9/2012 12:52 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



ETCDelawareTwinsFan wrote: We aren't the Yankees.  Move to New York if you want high priced free agents.  BTW, it's just a game.  Entertainment?  Have to fork over money like Zombies?  No one has to.  I think it's still a free country for at least a few more years.  Communism hasn't set in, yet.  Get a life.
lol

Man, I don't want to get personal with you, but I just think it's too easy for an out of state guy to blindly say they are ''on board'' when they haven't invested anything in this team outside of this board.

Obviously, we do share a passion for the Twins (and it's a big part of my life, no doubt) but residing in the state of Minnesota since birth and still living in a free county, I feel it's well within my right to be critical of management that in light of  delivering two last place finishes, says they're interested in putting a 'competitive team on the field in 2013' yet are making moves that do not back this up whatsoever AND finally, openly question someone who just blindly supports management. 

I think it's fair to say that we don't want to adapt KC's strategy / business plan of being in a perpetual state of 'rebuilding.'

That's all for now - getting back to my real 'life' and my wish for you is that yours is as good as mine and for our leisure time, we both can soon enjoy a winning product in our Minnesota Twins sooner, than later.
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Posted: 12/9/2012 9:43 PM

Re: Twins 'Dump' Revere for 2 Unimpressive Pitchers 



brian450 wrote:

Man, I don't want to get personal with you, but I just think it's too easy for an out of state guy to blindly say they are ''on board'' when they haven't invested anything in this team outside of this board.

Obviously, we do share a passion for the Twins (and it's a big part of my life, no doubt) but residing in the state of Minnesota since birth and still living in a free county, I feel it's well within my right to be critical of management that in light of  delivering two last place finishes, says they're interested in putting a 'competitive team on the field in 2013' yet are making moves that do not back this up whatsoever AND finally, openly question someone who just blindly supports management. 

I think it's fair to say that we don't want to adapt KC's strategy / business plan of being in a perpetual state of 'rebuilding.'

That's all for now - getting back to my real 'life' and my wish for you is that yours is as good as mine and for our leisure time, we both can soon enjoy a winning product in our Minnesota Twins sooner, than later.
I appreciate the civility and I was a bit out of character there.  I'm actually quite civil.  A bit frustrated as a whole about the sports industry and even carrying it further, our country in it's present state.  There are haves and have nots.  The haves want to keep it and have nots want to join the club.  The American Dream?  We need to know that doing things the right way can lead us to joining the "Haves".  Without that, feelings of futility set in, complacency becomes commonplace and society as a whole begins to deteriorate.  Baseball falls into this model and our way to do things the "right way" is to identify talent, develop it and create value for the organization and hopefully this leads to a long history of winning.  Even the Yankees need to do this (obviously to a much lesser degree) but when you pour millions into the pockets of guys falling from their career peaks, it's going to catch up with you eventually.  We spent the money on Mauer because he has shown plenty of drawing power (clearly the most popular Jersey sold in Minnesota, just look around next time you're at a game).  MVP's deserve the money, in fact the market pretty much allows them to demand it.  The hometown discount probably could have been bigger but nevertheless, we needed to sign him.  I was oke with Morneau too but luck was against us when he got beaned then kneed in the head.  Lost his prime time production after a Monstrous MVP year.  Overall, the money is basically available.  TR has pretty much said that time and time again.  However, spending when there isn't likely to be any significant chance of winning a World Series is fool hardy.  Bill Smith hamstrung our organizaion when he depleted valuable assets by selling low and buying high.  Clearly he was inexperienced and it showed.  GM's took him behind the woodshed, and you can fill in the rest with what they did to him and the Twins.  I'm just saying T.R. has a track record, with Krivsky also around I'm hopeful we'll be on the right track once again.  I think the moves they made were positive and that fact that he pulled the trigger was good in and of itself.  Most importantly, we're balancing our talent pool (way too many centerfielders and way too few strike 'em out guys).  Also, seems we are probably selling high and potentially buying low.  The longer we stick to this methodology the better our organization gets and the more likely we're playing baseball in October (or November ack.)

Have a great and joyous Holiday!
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