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Roll the Dice or Rebuild?

Posted: 12/14/2009 6:05 PM

Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


The following has been lingering on my mind since we heard about the McCourts pending divorce and the Dodgers unwillingness to offer ARB to any of their free agent players. At this point it is clear the Dodgers are too financially strapped to take on payroll; therefore, I post the question(s):

 

Roll the dice: should the Dodgers try to scrounge whatever talent they can acquire (left over players) to piece-meal whatever holes this team currently has? 

 

Or,

 

Rebuild: should the Dodgers move to a short term rebuilding plan and trade their veterans for young prospects that could potentially fill critical holes for us?

 

Though the optimist in me hopes to see some of our young players flourish in to what some of us believe they can become, the pessimist, or realist, in me understands that the Dodgers are likely to go in to the 2010 season fielding a less competitive team than last season.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 6:33 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


Who are those veterans that could bring you young prospects back in return worth anything?  Pierre? Blake? Manny with everything that goes with him?  Broken down Kuroda?  They don't have any.  What you will get for these guys is a bunch of junk that won't be able to fill anything.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 7:30 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


I think you have to remember that this FA class was a very weak class, anyway. When Lackey is the only ace pitcher out there (when he's more of a #2, IMO), then there's no need to go out and spend too much.


 


This board is hilarious, because 2 years ago when guys like Kyle Lohse and Carlos Silva were getting mega contracts, everybody was holding their breath hoping Colletti wouldn't do anything retarded. Now, the FA is just as bad, maybe worse, and people are hoping he spends the money necessary to get an overrated pitcher.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 8:04 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


Rebuilding should be nowhere near the Dodgers vocabulary at this point. We have too much younger talent to go through a rebuild.

Not to mention that the last time the Dodgers traded veterans for prospects was...ummm...never I think.

Just the facts.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 8:14 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

poiuyt wrote:

Who are those veterans that could bring you young prospects back in return worth anything?  Pierre? Blake? Manny with everything that goes with him?  Broken down Kuroda?  They don't have any.  What you will get for these guys is a bunch of junk that won't be able to fill anything.

You rebuild by moving salary, acquiring under appreciated players while selling high and then committing the organization to player development. And I think it's pretty clear that my preference would be to rebuild because we don't have enough money to build for now and the future.

 

The Dodgers have some players who are coming off great seasons like George Sherrill and Casey Blake who would be particularly attractive on the trade market. Players that could be moved with some salary to save money include: Manny Ramirez, Juan Pierre and Hiroki Kuroda.

 

If you're going to rebuild, you even consider trading the likes of Andre Ethier, Matt Kemp and Chad Billingsley if you can get the right players back in a deal.

 

Casey Blake-Blake could be of interest to teams like the Angels, Red Sox, Twins and Mariners.

George Sherrill- Take your pick of contenders, Sherrill could fit well with a number of teams.

Juan Pierre- The White Sox and Tigers have been said to be interested, pay to sell for a decent prospect.

Manny Ramirez- Who needs a marketing boost and potential big bat?

 

-The Angels lost Chone Figgins and John Lackey to free agency and watched the Mariners sign Chone Figgins and acquire Cliff Lee. The Angels had concerns about their bullpen as well and then lost a key member of their bullpen to Tommy John surgery. A combo deal of Manny/Sherrill, Blake/Sherrill and even Pierre/Sherrill could all be possibilities. The Angels have been said to be close to an agreement with Hideki Matsui and are rumored to be working on a Derek Lowe for Juan Rivera swap.

 

Here's my plan:

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers send Manny Ramirez, Ronald Belasario and cash to the Anaheim Angels in exchange for IF Brandon Wood, RHP Jordan Walden and RHP Trevor Bell.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade George Sherrill  to the Tampa Bay Rays in exchange for 2B Sean Rodriguez.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade Casey Blake to the Minnesotta Twins for OF Angel Morales and RHP Carlos Gutierrez.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade Juan Pierre and cash to the 3B Brent Morel and OF John Shelby.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted: 12/14/2009 8:21 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

Speedy8 wrote:Juan Pierre- The White Sox and Tigers have been said to be interested, pay to sell for a decent prospect.

Hey Speedy, funny you bring up the White Sox and Pierre. Now that the Sox have signed putz I believe it was, and there wanting to dump Jenks, do you think some thing could be worked out there to help both sides ? I've always been a Jenks fan, and getting rid of Pierre would be great.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 9:09 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

Speedy8 wrote:

 

Here's my plan:

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers send Manny Ramirez, Ronald Belasario and cash to the Anaheim Angels in exchange for IF Brandon Wood, RHP Jordan Walden and RHP Trevor Bell.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade George Sherrill  to the Tampa Bay Rays in exchange for 2B Sean Rodriguez.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade Casey Blake to the Minnesotta Twins for OF Angel Morales and RHP Carlos Gutierrez.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade Juan Pierre and cash to the 3B Brent Morel and OF John Shelby.

 

 

Good thing you're not the GM. Trading away Manny, Blake, Sherrill, and you even mention Bills, Kemp, and Ethier would probably result in a major net loss because nobody will ever want to come to a Dodger game.

 

I think that's why McCourt fired Depo.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 9:24 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 



We are working beyond our means and this is going to cause major long term negative consequences. Our current situation has us selling prospects in a futile attempt to contend now. Here's how 2010 will play out, well be a slightyly above .500 team that goes even cheaper on the draft than it usually does. In an attempt to contend and boost attendance, we will acquire a starting pitcher at the expense of our remaining minor league depth. The Dodgers end up falling short in the NL West, while the wild card goes to the Braves or another team outside of the NL West. We lose in the short term and most importantly the long term.

Or we can deal some of our bigger contracts for some inexpensive minor leaguerers, create some financial flexibility, use it in the draft and international free agency to build for long term success. The 2011 free agent class promises to be a good one, we would be well situated to strike for the player we need to go over the top.
----marinatedfreak wrote: ---------------

<blockquote dir="ltr" ><b>Speedy8 wrote:</b>  

Here's my plan:

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers send Manny Ramirez, Ronald Belasario and cash to the Anaheim Angels in exchange for IF Brandon Wood, RHP Jordan Walden and RHP Trevor Bell.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade George Sherrill  to the Tampa Bay Rays in exchange for 2B Sean Rodriguez.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade Casey Blake to the Minnesotta Twins for OF Angel Morales and RHP Carlos Gutierrez.

 

The Los Angeles Dodgers trade Juan Pierre and cash to the 3B Brent Morel and OF John Shelby.

 

 

</blockquote> Good thing you're not the GM. Trading away Manny, Blake, Sherrill, and you even mention Bills, Kemp, and Ethier would probably result in a major net loss because nobody will ever want to come to a Dodger game.

 

I think that's why McCourt fired Depo.

---------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

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Posted: 12/14/2009 9:34 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


i agree that as presently constructed this will be a 500 team, however would you really be comfortable with Colletti presiding over a rebuild that you're proposing?

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Posted: 12/14/2009 9:44 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


Were dealing in hypothetical situations here. Reality is the Colletti has been signed to a 5 year extension til 2014 and we won't be rebuilding. Theoretically, I would have let Colletti pursue employment elsewhere, make Logan White the GM and bring Dan Evans and other scouting people into the front office.

----poiuyt wrote: ---------------

i agree that as presently constructed this will be a 500 team, however would you really be comfortable with Colletti presiding over a rebuild that you're proposing?

---------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

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Posted: 12/14/2009 10:24 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


Sorry, but this is all crazy talk.  We have been to the NLCS 2 years running with a lot of young talent.  Yes, our owner has some financial woes, but this team still rakes in the cash and will soon rake in even more when that Fox TV deal expires.  This is not a team that should think about rebuilding.  At least not anything massive.  The Dodgers have never undergone a drastic rebuild, and it's not going to start now.

 

A team that won 95 games last year is supposed to be a .500 team because we lose Randy Wolf and Orlando Hudson? rolleyes

Just the facts.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 11:13 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


I will admit that the idea of rebuilding is a crazy thing to bring up in light of our success over the last 2 seasons; however, it is important to note that while our SPing has somewhat regressed with the losses of Derek Lowe in 08 and the 09' losses of Wolf, Padilla, and Garland to a certain extenet, it is more important to note how the Giants and Rockies are likely to be even tougher contenders this upcoming season. If we fall behind early in the season the outcome could be that much worse; although, we could always sell at the trade deadline. Neverteless, I don't think the idea of rebuilding seems that farfetched when you consider how much tougher the division is going to be if the Dodgers fail to fill some critical holes...other teams are improving while we are arguably regressing IMO.

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Posted: 12/14/2009 11:26 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

Dodgfan wrote:

The following has been lingering on my mind since we heard about the McCourts pending divorce and the Dodgers unwillingness to offer ARB to any of their free agent players. At this point it is clear the Dodgers are too financially strapped to take on payroll; therefore, I post the question(s):

 

Roll the dice: should the Dodgers try to scrounge whatever talent they can acquire (left over players) to piece-meal whatever holes this team currently has? 

 

Or,

 

Rebuild: should the Dodgers move to a short term rebuilding plan and trade their veterans for young prospects that could potentially fill critical holes for us?

 

Though the optimist in me hopes to see some of our young players flourish in to what some of us believe they can become, the pessimist, or realist, in me understands that the Dodgers are likely to go in to the 2010 season fielding a less competitive team than last season.


You don't rebuild when most of your roster is comprised of controllable young players.

 

 

Tx

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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:45 AM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


I don't think a rebuild would happen but I think the idea has some merit if you go about it with very specific goals.  Basically, if the objective is to free up some money that will allow us to sign Kemp, Kershaw, and perhaps Billingsley to long-term deals, the we could really reload the system with players who are close to the majors, AA and up.  We would really be shooting for 2011 and 2012, when we could integrate then veteran players Kemp, Kershaw, and Billingsley, with prospects that we currently have (Martin, Withrow, Gordon, etc.) and the prospects that we acquire.

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Posted: 12/15/2009 3:04 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

Dodgfan wrote:I will admit that the idea of rebuilding is a crazy thing to bring up in light of our success over the last 2 seasons;

 

Not particular to me, as I think you were right to bring the topic up. As Manny will be gone after this up coming season, Pierre is now gone, Schmidtt and Adruw Jones didn't pan out, and Billingsley has yet to find his ballz ! Hell even Derek Lowe said we were not a real Baseball Town with real fans. When Manny leaves will Ethier still have the same protection and or have pitchers worried about who comes next to keep up his hitting or will every one revert back to Pre Manny numbers and were right back were we started ? Keep in mind this past two trips to the playoffs came with Manny, Manny goes so do the playoffs unless we do some thing about it.

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Posted: 12/15/2009 3:21 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


The key is what happens in 2010 after McCourt divorce..it seems likely McCourt will sell  team..hopefully before 2011.

If we get new ownership who is willing to spend a little more $$ ( to $120M)we will be OK..lots of good FA in 2011 vs 2010 ( to fill any major gaps) so 2010 might be a low point --maybe 90 wins vs 95 wins.. and we will be in hunt for division title again.

I do not see need to do anything drastic..

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Posted: 12/15/2009 3:30 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


At this point I still think that the Dodgers, who lead the NL in wins last year, can be even better this year.

 

Here's what I find encouraging:

 

All of the young players still have potential upside, especially Loney.  The only player who might have peaked is Ethier but I wouldn't be surprised if he can turn it up another notch.

 

Furcal, Martin and Billingsly had off years and will hopfully rebound.

 

The Dodgers have enough young pitchers that finding a suitable #5 from a group that includes Heager, McDonald, Stults and Elbert should be easy.

 

With the addition of a utillity infielder who can start at second if DeWitt can't pull it off, a few veteran pinch hitters/bench players and one more pitcher I think the Dodgers shoud at least be able to win the west again.

 

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Posted: 12/15/2009 6:08 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

washie wrote:

 

Dodgfan wrote:I will admit that the idea of rebuilding is a crazy thing to bring up in light of our success over the last 2 seasons;

 

Not particular to me, as I think you were right to bring the topic up. As Manny will be gone after this up coming season, Pierre is now gone, Schmidtt and Adruw Jones didn't pan out, and Billingsley has yet to find his ballz ! Hell even Derek Lowe said we were not a real Baseball Town with real fans. When Manny leaves will Ethier still have the same protection and or have pitchers worried about who comes next to keep up his hitting or will every one revert back to Pre Manny numbers and were right back were we started ? Keep in mind this past two trips to the playoffs came with Manny, Manny goes so do the playoffs unless we do some thing about it.

So many things wrong with this post i don't know where to start.  They won the division in 08 because of Manny, sure, but 09?  Post juice Manny is nothing, zero.  So essentially Manny as we knew him is already gone from the team.  They did pretty well with this nothing version of Manny last year.  Schmidt and Jones weren't gonna be on next year's team anyway, so what do they have to with anything?

 

And Derek Lowe is a professional drunk.  Ask him about real fans after a year in Atlanta playing in an empty stadium most nights.  But, again, you're all over the place.  What does Lowe even have to do with this?

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Posted: 12/15/2009 6:26 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


 

poiuyt wrote:So many things wrong with this post i don't know where to start.  They won the division in 08 because of Manny, sure, but 09?  Post juice Manny is nothing, zero.  So essentially Manny as we knew him is already gone from the team.  They did pretty well with this nothing version of Manny last year.  Schmidt and Jones weren't gonna be on next year's team anyway, so what do they have to with anything?

 

And Derek Lowe is a professional drunk.  Ask him about real fans after a year in Atlanta playing in an empty stadium most nights.  But, again, you're all over the place.  What does Lowe even have to do with this?

 

Although Manny was not the same when he came back from his 50 game suspension he was still Manny and pitchers knew it. If you think things in the 2011 season will be the same when pitchers know Manny will not be in the line up in my mind your wrong, but that's just my opinion. Yes Poiuyt Schmidt and Jones will not be on the team next year but as I stated it shows were the team has gone wrong before in the past and why giving out contracts like that in the past has hurt us. No were did I say they would be on the team next year. Now since I guess I have to rehash this like in the trade thread I'll say this much. Half of Manny is good for our batting order then no Manny at all when he leaves is what I mean. Ethier and others I hope have learned enough to not let that allow them to have there numbers go down. Lowe, Schmidt , Pierre, and Jones are all contracts we should not have signed and or made, and have nothing but hurt in my mind this organization. So does that mean im all over the place ? No. Does that mean we should totally rebuild ? No That's not what I was implying. The fact that I have to rehash this and re explain this worries me. Is this clear enough or should I simplafy it more ?

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Posted: 12/15/2009 7:26 PM

Re: Roll the Dice or Rebuild? 


Then your post shouldn't have been in this thread.  This thread is about whether the Dodgers should rebuild or not.  What you posted has nothing to do with this.

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