Thought this article from Dave Cameron on Fangraphs might be interesting to discuss:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...o-a-losing-team

The key is to be smart about what kinds of investments you make. Russ Branyan’s signing by the Mariners last year is a perfect example of the kind of short-term, low-cost, quality acquisition that rebuilding teams should be looking to make. What the Royals did in throwing money at Kyle Farnsworth, Mike Jacobs, and Willie Bloomquist is an example of this kind of thinking gone badly wrong.

Interesting article

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

If someone had told me last offseason that we would add $15M in payroll (or whatever it was), Zack would contend for the Cy Young and Billy would hit .301/.362/.492 with 73 XBH I would have been thrilled.  This is easily the most disappointing season ever.

It's not too hard to see what DM was trying to do.  He gambled on competing in a weak division and as Cameron notes, there is value in being merely mediocre instead of horrible... especially with a "new" stadium opening.  But why can't he just man up and say he messed up instead of touting Willie Bloomquist (.265/.308/.355) as a good signing and never admitting any mistakes were made?

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

steadyd wrote:

If someone had told me last offseason that we would add $15M in payroll (or whatever it was), Zack would contend for the Cy Young and Billy would hit .301/.362/.492 with 73 XBH I would have been thrilled.  This is easily the most disappointing season ever.

 

It's not too hard to see what DM was trying to do.  He gambled on competing in a weak division and as Cameron notes, there is value in being merely mediocre instead of horrible... especially with a "new" stadium opening.  But why can't he just man up and say he messed up instead of touting Willie Bloomquist (.265/.308/.355) as a good signing and never admitting any mistakes were made?

If we all know where he screwed up why does he have to come out and tell us where he screwed up. If he non tenders Jacobs, lets olivo walk isnt that saying I screwed up?

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

Jacobs wasnt blocking Killa. You said yourself that you had no problem with Killa going to AAA. Now if you want to argue that late june-july he should of been up then fine. However thats a diffrent discussion. trading for jacobs did not block Killa. Especally when you had no problem with him going to AAA

ryansublett wrote:

 

steadyd wrote:

If someone had told me last offseason that we would add $15M in payroll (or whatever it was), Zack would contend for the Cy Young and Billy would hit .301/.362/.492 with 73 XBH I would have been thrilled.  This is easily the most disappointing season ever.

 

It's not too hard to see what DM was trying to do.  He gambled on competing in a weak division and as Cameron notes, there is value in being merely mediocre instead of horrible... especially with a "new" stadium opening.  But why can't he just man up and say he messed up instead of touting Willie Bloomquist (.265/.308/.355) as a good signing and never admitting any mistakes were made?

If we all know where he screwed up why does he have to come out and tell us where he screwed up. If he non tenders Jacobs, lets olivo walk isnt that saying I screwed up?

With Jacobs, yes. That probably does constitute an admission of failure. Though you still have to wonder why he ever thought it was going to work in the first place...

With Olivo, not really. He could and should have cut him last year. Instead he exercised the option and added another one and a buyout. Cutting him now is doing so after the horse has bolted and the stable has burned down.

lexingtonroyal wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

steadyd wrote:

If someone had told me last offseason that we would add $15M in payroll (or whatever it was), Zack would contend for the Cy Young and Billy would hit .301/.362/.492 with 73 XBH I would have been thrilled.  This is easily the most disappointing season ever.

 

It's not too hard to see what DM was trying to do.  He gambled on competing in a weak division and as Cameron notes, there is value in being merely mediocre instead of horrible... especially with a "new" stadium opening.  But why can't he just man up and say he messed up instead of touting Willie Bloomquist (.265/.308/.355) as a good signing and never admitting any mistakes were made?

If we all know where he screwed up why does he have to come out and tell us where he screwed up. If he non tenders Jacobs, lets olivo walk isnt that saying I screwed up?

With Jacobs, yes. That probably does constitute an admission of failure. Though you still have to wonder why he ever thought it was going to work in the first place...

 

With Olivo, not really. He could and should have cut him last year. Instead he exercised the option and added another one and a buyout. Cutting him now is doing so after the horse has bolted and the stable has burned down.

Actually the way we handled Olivo may work in our favor. If we had cut him last year we would not have gotten a draft pick as he didnt have the service time to qualify. Now by having him another year he qualified as a type B AND we get a comp pick if we let him go. So in the long run we benfit from having Olivo this year.

Now I didnt really have issue with Olivo being back this year because we didnt really have anything else(we still dont really) and we had other things we had to focus on,

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

Jacobs wasnt blocking Killa. You said yourself that you had no problem with Killa going to AAA. Now if you want to argue that late june-july he should of been up then fine. However thats a diffrent discussion. trading for jacobs did not block Killa. Especally when you had no problem with him going to AAA

Yes, Kila should have come up at some point in the season. Jacobs was blocking him from doing that.

It's not hard to see this. It's not hard to see this.

Kila is a DH. He was in AAA. He should have been in MLB, but instead, Mike Jacobs was getting the DH playing time and performing awful.

Conclusion, Mike Jacobs blocked Kila.

I am not claiming to be "right" about anything I predicted or said before the year started. I am stating what happened. We brought in Mike Jacobs and he will be blocking Kila for the 2nd straight season while we SHOULD be rebuilding. That's a 100000% fact...and yet you still try and deny it. Rich.

ryansublett wrote:

 

steadyd wrote:

If someone had told me last offseason that we would add $15M in payroll (or whatever it was), Zack would contend for the Cy Young and Billy would hit .301/.362/.492 with 73 XBH I would have been thrilled.  This is easily the most disappointing season ever.

 

It's not too hard to see what DM was trying to do.  He gambled on competing in a weak division and as Cameron notes, there is value in being merely mediocre instead of horrible... especially with a "new" stadium opening.  But why can't he just man up and say he messed up instead of touting Willie Bloomquist (.265/.308/.355) as a good signing and never admitting any mistakes were made?

If we all know where he screwed up why does he have to come out and tell us where he screwed up. If he non tenders Jacobs, lets olivo walk isnt that saying I screwed up?

Dude.... you're killing me.  Almost every single game from May 5th on was absolute torture... between our insanely bad offense, our outright embarrasing defense, and our pathetic bullpen, it was not a good time to be a Royals fan.  I've never yelled at my TV so much.  And every time DM gave an interview and didn't admit any mistakes were made it furiated (bobhamelin©) me.  Blaming Billy Butler's inabilitiy to turn a 3-6-3 double play?  Comparing Trey Hillman to guys like Torre and LaRussa?  Not knowing anything about defensive metrics?  Heralding Willie Bloomquist as a success?  Everybody who spends money on the Royals deserves to see someone take responsibility for the crap we witnessed this year and that doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

Jacobs wasnt blocking Killa. You said yourself that you had no problem with Killa going to AAA. Now if you want to argue that late june-july he should of been up then fine. However thats a diffrent discussion. trading for jacobs did not block Killa. Especally when you had no problem with him going to AAA

Yes, Kila should have come up at some point in the season. Jacobs was blocking him from doing that.

 

It's not hard to see this. It's not hard to see this.

 

Kila is a DH. He was in AAA. He should have been in MLB, but instead, Mike Jacobs was getting the DH playing time and performing awful.

Conclusion, Mike Jacobs blocked Kila.

I am not claiming to be "right" about anything I predicted or said before the year started. I am stating what happened. We brought in Mike Jacobs and he will be blocking Kila for the 2nd straight season while we SHOULD be rebuilding. That's a 100000% fact...and yet you still try and deny it. Rich.

You are a fool, and quite frankly I have never said we SHOULDNT REBUILD. Nowhere in this thread did I say we need to rebuild. I agree with you that Killa should of been up at some point. I however dont have issue with bringing in Jacobs because Killa needed more time in the minors...

Now im done arguing with you because everytime we have a debate you either put words in my mouth or try to tell me what I think. So w are done you leave me alone ill leave you alone

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

Jacobs wasnt blocking Killa. You said yourself that you had no problem with Killa going to AAA. Now if you want to argue that late june-july he should of been up then fine. However thats a diffrent discussion. trading for jacobs did not block Killa. Especally when you had no problem with him going to AAA

Yes, Kila should have come up at some point in the season. Jacobs was blocking him from doing that.

 

It's not hard to see this. It's not hard to see this.

 

Kila is a DH. He was in AAA. He should have been in MLB, but instead, Mike Jacobs was getting the DH playing time and performing awful.

Conclusion, Mike Jacobs blocked Kila.

I am not claiming to be "right" about anything I predicted or said before the year started. I am stating what happened. We brought in Mike Jacobs and he will be blocking Kila for the 2nd straight season while we SHOULD be rebuilding. That's a 100000% fact...and yet you still try and deny it. Rich.

You are a fool, and quite frankly I have never said we SHOULDNT REBUILD. Nowhere in this thread did I say we need to rebuild. I agree with you that Killa should of been up at some point. I however dont have issue with bringing in Jacobs because Killa needed more time in the minors...

 

Now im done arguing with you because everytime we have a debate you either put words in my mouth or try to tell me what I think. So w are done you leave me alone ill leave you alone

WTF are you even talking about? Every time you are losing an argument, you just pull the "you are putting words in my mouth" trick....what a joke. Where did I put words in your mouth in that last post? Where??

Where did I say that you said we shouldn't rebuild. Where did I say that??

Mike Jacobs blocked Kila during the 2009 season. It's not even close to debatable. That's all I'm talking about.

...and I respond to posts that I disagree with. It's not my fault that you just post madeup crap out of your ass that I disagree with. You post about how Willie Bloomquist isn't that bad, Mike Jacobs didn't block Kila, and our middle infield depth could be good..and I'm gonna respond. Simple as that..doesn't matter whether you post it or firesticks posts it.

steadyd wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

steadyd wrote:

If someone had told me last offseason that we would add $15M in payroll (or whatever it was), Zack would contend for the Cy Young and Billy would hit .301/.362/.492 with 73 XBH I would have been thrilled.  This is easily the most disappointing season ever.

 

It's not too hard to see what DM was trying to do.  He gambled on competing in a weak division and as Cameron notes, there is value in being merely mediocre instead of horrible... especially with a "new" stadium opening.  But why can't he just man up and say he messed up instead of touting Willie Bloomquist (.265/.308/.355) as a good signing and never admitting any mistakes were made?

If we all know where he screwed up why does he have to come out and tell us where he screwed up. If he non tenders Jacobs, lets olivo walk isnt that saying I screwed up?

Dude.... you're killing me.  Almost every single game from May 5th on was absolute torture... between our insanely bad offense, our outright embarrasing defense, and our pathetic bullpen, it was not a good time to be a Royals fan.  I've never yelled at my TV so much.  And every time DM gave an interview and didn't admit any mistakes were made it furiated (bobhamelin©) me.  Blaming Billy Butler's inabilitiy to turn a 3-6-3 double play?  Comparing Trey Hillman to guys like Torre and LaRussa?  Not knowing anything about defensive metrics?  Heralding Willie Bloomquist as a success?  Everybody who spends money on the Royals deserves to see someone take responsibility for the crap we witnessed this year and that doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.

He didnt blame Billy Butler for not being able to turn a 3-6-3. He said that was something hed like to see Billy improve on that. Probably after being ASKED about Billy. As someone who has done some interviewing and newspaper writing. Sometimes you can write things in a way that can seem totaly diffrent than the context of the conversation.

If I ask "what have you liked about Billy and what would you like him to work on" then I put his answer in the article its going to seem like hes throwing Billy under the bus when really that isnt the case at all

Now  if DM had done an interview and said hey we screwed up, We made moves and they didnt work. What does that change? nothing. If it makes you feel better fine but that isnt really his job. Is him admiting he messed up going to make one more fan come out to the  park? no

I have NEVER heard a GM say in an  interview that he messed up on a certin move. To expect that from DM when no one else in the game woud is un fair

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

Jacobs wasnt blocking Killa. You said yourself that you had no problem with Killa going to AAA. Now if you want to argue that late june-july he should of been up then fine. However thats a diffrent discussion. trading for jacobs did not block Killa. Especally when you had no problem with him going to AAA

Yes, Kila should have come up at some point in the season. Jacobs was blocking him from doing that.

 

It's not hard to see this. It's not hard to see this.

 

Kila is a DH. He was in AAA. He should have been in MLB, but instead, Mike Jacobs was getting the DH playing time and performing awful.

Conclusion, Mike Jacobs blocked Kila.

I am not claiming to be "right" about anything I predicted or said before the year started. I am stating what happened. We brought in Mike Jacobs and he will be blocking Kila for the 2nd straight season while we SHOULD be rebuilding. That's a 100000% fact...and yet you still try and deny it. Rich.

You are a fool, and quite frankly I have never said we SHOULDNT REBUILD. Nowhere in this thread did I say we need to rebuild. I agree with you that Killa should of been up at some point. I however dont have issue with bringing in Jacobs because Killa needed more time in the minors...

 

Now im done arguing with you because everytime we have a debate you either put words in my mouth or try to tell me what I think. So w are done you leave me alone ill leave you alone

WTF are you even talking about? Every time you are losing an argument, you just pull the "you are putting words in my mouth" trick....what a joke. Where did I put words in your mouth in that last post? Where??

 

Where did I say that you said we shouldn't rebuild. Where did I say that??

 

Mike Jacobs blocked Kila during the 2009 season. It's not even close to debatable. That's all I'm talking about.

 

...and I respond to posts that I disagree with. It's not my fault that you just post madeup crap out of your ass that I disagree with. You post about how Willie Bloomquist isn't that bad, Mike Jacobs didn't block Kila, and our middle infield depth could be good..and I'm gonna respond. Simple as that..doesn't matter whether you post it or firesticks posts it.

you said right there that I deny that we should be rebuiding.... secondly you have no evidence yet that Killa will be blocked for a 2nd year.

So im not the only one pulling stuff out of my ass

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

 

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

 

I think you have a problem when you have long term money locked in to guys. Im talking about Farnsworth, Guillen those types. Guys like Jacobs who you can cut lose year to year pretty easily doesnt really hurt us any in terms of rebuilding

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Jacobs blocking Kila hasn't hurt us in terms of rebuilding at all. I mean, the freaking definition of rebuilding is giving young players a shot to see what they can do. So yeah, Jacobs hasn't gotten in the way of any young players getting a chance, except for that one season where he got in the way of a young player getting a chance. Going on two years now.

Jacobs wasnt blocking Killa. You said yourself that you had no problem with Killa going to AAA. Now if you want to argue that late june-july he should of been up then fine. However thats a diffrent discussion. trading for jacobs did not block Killa. Especally when you had no problem with him going to AAA

Yes, Kila should have come up at some point in the season. Jacobs was blocking him from doing that.

 

It's not hard to see this. It's not hard to see this.

 

Kila is a DH. He was in AAA. He should have been in MLB, but instead, Mike Jacobs was getting the DH playing time and performing awful.

Conclusion, Mike Jacobs blocked Kila.

I am not claiming to be "right" about anything I predicted or said before the year started. I am stating what happened. We brought in Mike Jacobs and he will be blocking Kila for the 2nd straight season while we SHOULD be rebuilding. That's a 100000% fact...and yet you still try and deny it. Rich.

You are a fool, and quite frankly I have never said we SHOULDNT REBUILD. Nowhere in this thread did I say we need to rebuild. I agree with you that Killa should of been up at some point. I however dont have issue with bringing in Jacobs because Killa needed more time in the minors...

 

Now im done arguing with you because everytime we have a debate you either put words in my mouth or try to tell me what I think. So w are done you leave me alone ill leave you alone

WTF are you even talking about? Every time you are losing an argument, you just pull the "you are putting words in my mouth" trick....what a joke. Where did I put words in your mouth in that last post? Where??

 

Where did I say that you said we shouldn't rebuild. Where did I say that??

 

Mike Jacobs blocked Kila during the 2009 season. It's not even close to debatable. That's all I'm talking about.

 

...and I respond to posts that I disagree with. It's not my fault that you just post madeup crap out of your ass that I disagree with. You post about how Willie Bloomquist isn't that bad, Mike Jacobs didn't block Kila, and our middle infield depth could be good..and I'm gonna respond. Simple as that..doesn't matter whether you post it or firesticks posts it.

you said right there that I deny that we should be rebuiding.... secondly you have no evidence yet that Killa will be blocked for a 2nd year.

 

So im not the only one pulling stuff out of my ass

I said you deny that Jacobs will be blocking Kila, not that you deny that we should be rebuilding.

....and the evidence that Jacobs will block Kila for a 2nd year is that Jacobs will be a Royal next year and Kila will be an O-Royal. BOOK IT.

I'm talking about one specific thing. Jacobs blocking Kila, you're the one who cries everytime you are getting throttled in an argument b/c you make ridiculous statements that almost never have any basis in fact or reality.

LOL I love how you blast me for not having facts. Then you flollow that up by saying its a lock Jacobs will be back next year with no facts to back it up.

ryansublett wrote:

LOL I love how you blast me for not having facts. Then you flollow that up by saying its a lock Jacobs will be back next year with no facts to back it up.

 

It's a prediction. The FACT is that he has blocked Kila for one season. I think it will be two, but regardless, he has still blocked Kila, which is a fact you have clearly denied.

That's what I'm talking about. You're the one talking about all sorts of other crap and crying about how your random BS statements get rejected constantly.

KingKirkpatrick wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

LOL I love how you blast me for not having facts. Then you flollow that up by saying its a lock Jacobs will be back next year with no facts to back it up.

 

It's a prediction. The FACT is that he has blocked Kila for one season. I think it will be two, but regardless, he has still blocked Kila, which is a fact you have clearly denied.

 

That's what I'm talking about. You're the one talking about all sorts of other crap and crying about how your random BS statements get rejected constantly.

Whatever dude

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

And Branyan was signed for 1 yr, for less money, and without having to give up a decent, young reliever. Jacobs is a perfect example of what not to do, regardless of the situation the team is in.

gilmeche55 wrote:

 

ryansublett wrote:

Interesting article

 

I wil say that Jacobs I dont think belongs in that as an example. Yes we did pay more money for Jacobs than Seattle payed for Branyan, but its a 1 year deal to(assuming we non tender him)

And Branyan was signed for 1 yr, for less money, and without having to give up a decent, young reliever. Jacobs is a perfect example of what not to do, regardless of the situation the team is in.

How dare you put words in his mouth, F**KER