The vote is announced next week.

Baseball Think Factory did a straw poll of voters (I read about it on Deadspin, no link.  Look it up yourself you lazy bastrds), and based on that, no one gets in.

I can't wait to read explanations, so I have a nice, sanctimonious, moral compass to follow when it comes to sports.

lol @ nobody getting in. Although, I will say that nobody getting in is >>>>>>>> Jack Morris and/or Dale Murphy getting in.

The best player of all time doesn't even get in on the first ballot. Baseball writers are complete jackasses and should all have their voting rights revoked.

mpf8888 wrote: lol @ nobody getting in. Although, I will say that nobody getting in is >>>>>>>> Jack Morris and/or Dale Murphy getting in.

The best player of all time doesn't even get in on the first ballot. Baseball writers are complete jackasses and should all have their voting rights revoked.

Willie Mays was in on his first year.

My point remains. Even if you think there are 1 or 2 players better, it is aburd to keep Bonds from the Hall of Fame. He's unquestionably a 1st ballot HOFer and was so before the "steroid era". Clemons is also. We're talking about the #2 position player and #3 pitcher in Wins Above Replacement all time.


Others less egregious, but still Piazza, Schilling, and Biggio should all be 1st timers. Bagwell, Raines, Edgar Martinez have good cases.

mpf8888 wrote: My point remains. Even if you think there are 1 or 2 players better, it is aburd to keep Bonds from the Hall of Fame. He's unquestionably a 1st ballot HOFer and was so before the "steroid era". Clemons is also. We're talking about the #2 position player and #3 pitcher in Wins Above Replacement all time.


Others less egregious, but still Piazza, Schilling, and Biggio should all be 1st timers. Bagwell, Raines, Edgar Martinez have good cases.

Actually, after reading your first post, I realized that I think the arguments to keep Bonds and friends out are less idiotic than those to include Jack Morris.

And Bonds should be in, along with Piazza, Schiling, Bagwell and Biggio.  Raines, and Martinez certainly wouldn't shame the Hall.  Each has a better case than Jim F'ing Rice.

Did any of you guys actually see Jim Rice or Jack Morris play? With both of these guys there is a lot more than WAR and all the stats. Hell, all Jack Morris did was win game after game in the 80s....a time when pitchers often finished their own games or at least pitched well into games. Jim Rice was only one of the most feared hitters of his era....his stats aren't as good as these in e 90s and 00s, but then PEDs weren't in the picture. Murphy dominated the NL for ten years and was a 2x MVP. When you watched Murphy in the 80s NOONE thought it would ever be questioned that he would be hall worthy. Trammel was every bit as good as Larkin. I think HOF voting is out of control contaminated by people that probably didnt even see some of these guys play....

FWIW, I think Bonds, Piazza, Biggio, Bagwell, McGwire , Murphy and probably Trammel deserve to be in the Hall. I saw every one of these guys play and they were all very special players.
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--- ChiTownRoyalsFan wrote:

mpf8888 wrote: My point remains. Even if you think there are 1 or 2 players better, it is aburd to keep Bonds from the Hall of Fame. He's unquestionably a 1st ballot HOFer and was so before the "steroid era". Clemons is also. We're talking about the #2 position player and #3 pitcher in Wins Above Replacement all time.


Others less egregious, but still Piazza, Schilling, and Biggio should all be 1st timers. Bagwell, Raines, Edgar Martinez have good cases.

Actually, after reading your first post, I realized that I think the arguments to keep Bonds and friends out are less idiotic than those to include Jack Morris.

And Bonds should be in, along with Piazza, Schiling, Bagwell and Biggio.  Raines, and Martinez certainly wouldn't shame the Hall.  Each has a better case than Jim F'ing Rice.

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I agree that Edgar and probably Schilling deserve to be in as well.

I've always thought there should be an additional stratum. A hall of legends. The best 9 players ever from each league. The only way onto the legends team is to knock somewhat out.......
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--- ChiTownRoyalsFan wrote:

mpf8888 wrote: My point remains. Even if you think there are 1 or 2 players better, it is aburd to keep Bonds from the Hall of Fame. He's unquestionably a 1st ballot HOFer and was so before the "steroid era". Clemons is also. We're talking about the #2 position player and #3 pitcher in Wins Above Replacement all time.


Others less egregious, but still Piazza, Schilling, and Biggio should all be 1st timers. Bagwell, Raines, Edgar Martinez have good cases.

Actually, after reading your first post, I realized that I think the arguments to keep Bonds and friends out are less idiotic than those to include Jack Morris.

And Bonds should be in, along with Piazza, Schiling, Bagwell and Biggio.  Raines, and Martinez certainly wouldn't shame the Hall.  Each has a better case than Jim F'ing Rice.

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mpf8888 wrote: My point remains. Even if you think there are 1 or 2 players better, it is aburd to keep Bonds from the Hall of Fame. He's unquestionably a 1st ballot HOFer and was so before the "steroid era". Clemons is also. We're talking about the #2 position player and #3 pitcher in Wins Above Replacement all time.


Others less egregious, but still Piazza, Schilling, and Biggio should all be 1st timers. Bagwell, Raines, Edgar Martinez have good cases.

I don't see how you put Piazza in but not Murphy.

I think if you put Bonds and his ilk in, you've got to put Pete Rose in.

I've always thought this. It's not the hall of "good guys" or hall of "great citizens". Ty Cobb is in there and he once beat a man in a wheelchair. It's for playing baseball. Bonds and McGwire were just two of many people who used PED.

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--- PokieDolano wrote:

I think if you put Bonds and his ilk in, you've got to put Pete Rose in.

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kerg01 wrote: I've always thought this. It's not the hall of "good guys" or hall of "great citizens". Ty Cobb is in there and he once beat a man in a wheelchair. It's for playing baseball. Bonds and McGwire were just two of many people who used PED.

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--- PokieDolano wrote:

I think if you put Bonds and his ilk in, you've got to put Pete Rose in.

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Using PEDs (allegedly) is much different than betting on the game you are playing/managing.

I grew up in Boston in the 70's and early 80's.  Jim Rice was my favorite player as a kid.  I had a poster of Jim Rice on my wall from the time I was 8 until I was 12, then he was replace by Bo Derek.  I do not think Rice should be in the Hall.  He would have a much better case if he did not fall off a cliff in the late 80's, but most of that was related to vision issues (he spent his last couple of years trying to hit MLB pitching with uncorrected 20/100 vision or worse) because he was to vain to wear glasses and could not wear contact lenses. 

Perhaps if the PED now known as laser corrective vison surgery was available back in 1986 Rice would have played into the mid-90's and would have been an air-tight case for the Hall.
 
You do realize that if you wanted to retroactively clean up the HoF, you would need to throw about 20% of the members before Rice's name was even mentioned.

ChiTownRoyalsFan wrote:

mpf8888 wrote: My point remains. Even if you think there are 1 or 2 players better, it is aburd to keep Bonds from the Hall of Fame. He's unquestionably a 1st ballot HOFer and was so before the "steroid era". Clemons is also. We're talking about the #2 position player and #3 pitcher in Wins Above Replacement all time.


Others less egregious, but still Piazza, Schilling, and Biggio should all be 1st timers. Bagwell, Raines, Edgar Martinez have good cases.

Actually, after reading your first post, I realized that I think the arguments to keep Bonds and friends out are less idiotic than those to include Jack Morris.

And Bonds should be in, along with Piazza, Schiling, Bagwell and Biggio.  Raines, and Martinez certainly wouldn't shame the Hall.  Each has a better case than Jim F'ing Rice.

Jack Morris    No
Dale Murphy   No
Mike Piazza    Yes
Tim Raines     Yes
Barry Bonds   Yes
Roger Clemens Yes
Alan Trammell  No.


I really wish, as a fan, that I could say yes to Morris and Murphy.  I also wish Jim Rice and Gary Carter could be pulled out.  But they can't.  If Gary Carter is in, Mike Piazza should go in. And even with Jim Rice in, Dale Murphy is a trivia question, not a HOFer.


And if Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, so is Albert Belle.

Odie9 wrote: Jack Morris    No
Dale Murphy   No
Mike Piazza    Yes
Tim Raines     Yes
Barry Bonds   Yes
Roger Clemens Yes
Alan Trammell  No.


I really wish, as a fan, that I could say yes to Morris and Murphy.  I also wish Jim Rice and Gary Carter could be pulled out.  But they can't.  If Gary Carter is in, Mike Piazza should go in. And even with Jim Rice in, Dale Murphy is a trivia question, not a HOFer.


And if Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, so is Albert Belle.

I know that almost no one will agree with me, but I think Puckett, (scumbag that he was...) is a Hall of Famer.  If he hadn't gotten glaucoma he probably would have put up the requisite Hall numbers. 

As for Albert Belle, and I know not many will agree, if writers elect someone on their peak performance, like they did with Koufax, no reason Belle shouldn't be in.  That guy was one of the best hitters of the 90s.  I am almost certain the only reason he fell off the ballot so early was because he was a massive prick.

I agree on Belle too. I've never been one of those "longevity" guys. That's why it's easy for me to say yes to Rice, Murphy, Trammel ect. Those guys were the most feared and or best players at their positions for 5-10 years. I put some stock in a players contemporaneous all star appearances. In most eras, the perenial all star players are the HOFs later. So on that criteria, RIce, Trammel, Carter, Raines and all of them should be in. I'm not sure what the resistance is to putting players in other than just using stats to argue against it. Stats, even with some "corrective factor" dont translate well from era to era. I know we don't want to water the hall down, but if we keep going, no one will get in. I've been to the building, it's a big building, there's no space limitation. By putting in a trammel or a Raines, a fan in 2050 might walk by and say, who was this guy and what did he do? Why was he a 10x all star player. If you remove the consensus best player in a league (Murphy) for 5-10 years just because his stats dont stack up long term, you are removing a big part of the history of the 80s for the 2050 fan. This was certainly my experience in visiting the hall and it didnt take away from my respect of the true legends like Mays and Aaron or Ruth.

As for Rose, I understand the precedent and am not hard over. But again he's in there due to his play on the field, not his criminal or immoral play later. Did his betting really "stain" the game that much in comparison to the combined PED effect.

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--- ChiTownRoyalsFan wrote:

Odie9 wrote: Jack Morris    No
Dale Murphy   No
Mike Piazza    Yes
Tim Raines     Yes
Barry Bonds   Yes
Roger Clemens Yes
Alan Trammell  No.


I really wish, as a fan, that I could say yes to Morris and Murphy.  I also wish Jim Rice and Gary Carter could be pulled out.  But they can't.  If Gary Carter is in, Mike Piazza should go in. And even with Jim Rice in, Dale Murphy is a trivia question, not a HOFer.


And if Kirby Puckett is a HOFer, so is Albert Belle.

I know that almost no one will agree with me, but I think Puckett, (scumbag that he was...) is a Hall of Famer.  If he hadn't gotten glaucoma he probably would have put up the requisite Hall numbers. 

As for Albert Belle, and I know not many will agree, if writers elect someone on their peak performance, like they did with Koufax, no reason Belle shouldn't be in.  That guy was one of the best hitters of the 90s.  I am almost certain the only reason he fell off the ballot so early was because he was a massive prick.

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I should have reached this point a few years ago (especially after Bagwell got 41 percent), but I expect that after this year's ballot is revealed on January 9, I'll no longer be even remotely interested in discussing or even reading about the Hall of Fame.

If the best hitter and best pitcher of our generation can't even get in, then what's the point of even having a Hall of Fame?

My ballot this year would include:

Bagwell
Trammell
Edgar
McGwire
Palmeiro
Biggio
Bonds
Clemens
Piazza
Sosa

...And I consider it a travesty if the six guys I bolded aren't elected.

Edit: Also, I only included 10 because that's the voting limit. But I'd also be pleased as punch if I could also include Raines, McGriff, Walker, Murphy, and Schilling. I'm a big Hall type of guy.

RoyalsCorner wrote: I should have reached this point a few years ago (especially after Bagwell got 41 percent), but I expect that after this year's ballot is revealed on January 9, I'll no longer be even remotely interested in discussing or even reading about the Hall of Fame.

If the best hitter and best pitcher of our generation can't even get in, then what's the point of even having a Hall of Fame?

This is a really good point, RC.  Does this make the Hall irrelevant to people from our age group?

I'll admit, it makes it much less relelvant for me.

Gbwoy wrote:

RoyalsCorner wrote: I should have reached this point a few years ago (especially after Bagwell got 41 percent), but I expect that after this year's ballot is revealed on January 9, I'll no longer be even remotely interested in discussing or even reading about the Hall of Fame.

If the best hitter and best pitcher of our generation can't even get in, then what's the point of even having a Hall of Fame?

This is a really good point, RC.  Does this make the Hall irrelevant to people from our age group?

I'll admit, it makes it much less relelvant for me.

I kind of wish I could get there, but instead, I am pretty sure blind rage will result instead of apathy. 

However, Kenisaw Mountain Landis, Tom Yawkey, Ty Cobb, and Gaylord Perry would probably say that character and integrity are necessary prereqs to Hall induction.



Landis, Yawkey, and Cobb would probably add white skin to that list.

I totally agree. I would think a general amnesty of all PED users should be announced by veterans committee, the HOF itself or the commissioner or combo and let it rest. Other than those guys who readily admitted use, we really only know this:
1) a lot of players, not just Bonds and the more obvious ones, looked like they gained muscle weight in theb90s and 00s.
2) not one player, other than Canseco and his money inspired book, spoke up about it. No team spoke up about it though it was unfathomable some or all of managements didnt know what was going on in the locker rooms.
3) no sanctimonious writers did any real investigative reporting to uncover the truth until a few key players were "outed".
4) my opinion only. A large number of players used PEDs in this era. Just like players routinely gambled on baseball games in the early 1900s and a large number of players probably used pot and speed in the 70s (see Boutons book).


Writers need to get over themselves and vote in the best players period. We can argue about some of these guys but Bonds and Clemens were among the best ever to play the game if not the best ever.
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--- RoyalsCorner wrote:

I should have reached this point a few years ago (especially after Bagwell got 41 percent), but I expect that after this year's ballot is revealed on January 9, I'll no longer be even remotely interested in discussing or even reading about the Hall of Fame.

If the best hitter and best pitcher of our generation can't even get in, then what's the point of even having a Hall of Fame?

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