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Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit opinion,

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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:19 PM

Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit opinion, 


HeNeverLies has repeatedly asserted, since last summer, really, that Monta Ellis is an average NBA player, and that's it. IMHO, that's simple JaDE-like chain-yanking trolling, but I get the sense that HNL 1) really believes what he says, and 2) thinks that it's a widely-held and valid basketball opinion. 

I think the proposed assertion is uproarious, a slam of a near-All-Star player who is arguably top-five in the league at attacking the basket. I don't think it's at all a legitimate opinion. Just looking for a little backup here. When HNL makes that claim about Ellis, should he be aware a priori that it's going to be generally received as trolling?

    Is "Ellis = average" a legit BB opinion, or trolling?

  1. Poll closed on 08/06/2014
  2. It's a legit opinion: 14 votes
  3. It's trolling, whether HNL sees it that way or not: 50 votes
  4. It's only trolling if j0n says it's trolling: 10 votes

Dear Cuban and Donnie, great job on the offseason. Now go get Rondo and sign Jermaine O'Neal and we'll be ready to go get Dirk and Tyson another ring.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:21 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


People believe a lot of stupid stuff, doesn't make their opinion illegitimate, just makes it stupid and irrational.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:22 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


obviously not. he is an all-star caliber player

a player like jeff taylor is average
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:42 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


IIRC, HNL was a Calderon fan (apologist) that joined the forum when Calderon signed and was one of the guys constantly trying to argue Calderon was a better player than Ellis. He's trolling. If you can't skip his posts, best to just put him on ignore.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:45 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


Chuck Cooperstein held a negative opinion of Monta so I'd say its ok for a smart basketball fan to think he's average.  You can even make a good case for that statistically. 

Monta is above average offense (PER of 16.8) and below average defense and rebounding.  What he "can do" counterbalances what he "can't do."  Slightly above average player with a needed skillset.

keep the fires lit
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:47 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



DirksKnee wrote: IIRC, HNL was a Calderon fan (apologist) that joined the forum when Calderon signed and was one of the guys constantly trying to argue Calderon was a better player than Ellis. He's trolling. If you can't skip his posts, best to just put him on ignore.
You're mixing TeamOverAnything with HNL. HNL has been on these boards for a while. He's a Mayo fan who got upset that the Mavs chose Monta over Mayo.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:48 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit opinio 


Played all 82 games and second most minutes played in the league.

#1 in total number of drives taken in the league

Shooting guard rankings

#5 in PPG #3 in total points

#3 in FTA and FTM

#2 in FGM and FGA

#10 in FG%

#1 in Total Assists #3 in APG

#1 in Total Steals #2 in SPG

Bad stats

#2 in total turnovers and TPG

#13 in total rebounds and #15 in RPG

#40 in 3P% but also #40 in 3PA.

Yes he's an average rebounder and defender at his position, he turns the ball over alot and he doesn't make threes, but as you can see he also didn't attempt a ton of threes and drove to the basket like no other.

you can see he is elite at pretty much every other stat you can think of.
 
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Posted: 7/30/2014 12:50 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


As far as the original question, I don't think Monta is an elite player.  However, the one thing that he is elite at...driving to the rim...is a perfect complement to the skillset of the  best player on this team. So Monta is a great fit next to Dirk. Complementary skillset should matter a lot when putting a team together. . When people say that, others who are correct in their assessment of Monta not being a great player,  confuse that as the other side saying that Monta is a great player...period. That's where all the arguments then start.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:07 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



Ryan4131 wrote: obviously not. he is an all-star caliber player

a player like jeff taylor is average
where is his all-star apperances? just askin

 

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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:09 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



hakeemfan wrote:
DirksKnee wrote: IIRC, HNL was a Calderon fan (apologist) that joined the forum when Calderon signed and was one of the guys constantly trying to argue Calderon was a better player than Ellis. He's trolling. If you can't skip his posts, best to just put him on ignore.
You're mixing TeamOverAnything with HNL. HNL has been on these boards for a while. He's a Mayo fan who got upset that the Mavs chose Monta over Mayo.
Ah, you're right.

hakeemfan wrote: As far as the original question, I don't think Monta is an elite player.  However, the one thing that he is elite at...driving to the rim...is a perfect complement to the skillset of the  best player on this team. So Monta is a great fit next to Dirk. Complementary skillset should matter a lot when putting a team together. . When people say that, others who are correct in their assessment of Monta not being a great player,  confuse that as the other side saying that Monta is a great player...period. That's where all the arguments then start.
Elite? Not sure anyone claims he''s an overall elite player. But there is a huge gap between average and elite from an offensive perspective.  Monta's numbers (19 PPG) are much closer to All-Star (20+ PPG) than average (9.7 PPG).
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:11 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



chiodos03 wrote:
Ryan4131 wrote: obviously not. he is an all-star caliber player

a player like jeff taylor is average
where is his all-star apperances? just askin
did i say he was an all-star? i said all-star CALIBER player. is that too big a word for you?
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:13 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



DirksKnee wrote:
hakeemfan wrote:
DirksKnee wrote: IIRC, HNL was a Calderon fan (apologist) that joined the forum when Calderon signed and was one of the guys constantly trying to argue Calderon was a better player than Ellis. He's trolling. If you can't skip his posts, best to just put him on ignore.
You're mixing TeamOverAnything with HNL. HNL has been on these boards for a while. He's a Mayo fan who got upset that the Mavs chose Monta over Mayo.
Ah, you're right.

hakeemfan wrote: As far as the original question, I don't think Monta is an elite player.  However, the one thing that he is elite at...driving to the rim...is a perfect complement to the skillset of the  best player on this team. So Monta is a great fit next to Dirk. Complementary skillset should matter a lot when putting a team together. . When people say that, others who are correct in their assessment of Monta not being a great player,  confuse that as the other side saying that Monta is a great player...period. That's where all the arguments then start.
Elite? Not sure anyone claims he''s an overall elite player. But there is a huge gap between average and elite from an offensive perspective.  Monta's numbers (19 PPG) are much closer to All-Star (20+ PPG) than average (9.7 PPG).
this

no one is saying monta is a top 5 player here. but he is an all-star caliber player, who puts up near 20 a night w 6 assists and is a 2nd option who is capable of being a 1b on any given night on a 50 win team
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:15 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


There are people on this board who think Kevin Love is an average player.  So while I think Monta being an average player is an incorrect opinion, it's still an opinion nonetheless
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:19 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



chiodos03 wrote:
Ryan4131 wrote: obviously not. he is an all-star caliber player

a player like jeff taylor is average
where is his all-star apperances? just askin
In GS and Mil, he was raw, young and not surrounding by good teammates.  He was an inefficient player who needed direction and a fresh start.  Thus, his reputation had become one that wasnt not very good.

Last year, he completely reversed that reputation.  He fit in great with this team, Dirk and the culture established here.  The only reason he didnt make the all-star team is because in addition to the lack of many top notch 2 guards , the PG position is SO DEEP in this league now that they are giving more spots to PG's and less to SG's.  (much like the PF/C situation).  But when talking about 2 guards, with Kobe out last year, who is better than Monta?  Everyone says Harden, but if you are going to call someone NOT elite because of their weakness then you have to consider that Harden plays ZERO defense.

Monta is an elite finisher at the rim, an elite passer, an elite passing lane clogger/stealer, a very good ball handler, a much improved jump shooter, is very quick and has got himself a nice little corner 3 shot now.  So just because his overall 3-ball is average and his man defense is average, we are going to proclaim he isnt a special player in this league?
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:23 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


I cant deal with tardsville

 

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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:24 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:25 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 


HeNeverLies is a well known evaluator of NBA talent and we should take his word on such things.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:28 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



chiodos03 wrote: I cant deal with tardsville

Out of the 29 other starting shooting guards in this league, can you name those that are clearly overall better than Monta at this point in their respective careers?  (BTW Kobe is absolutely unproven after his injury and Wade has shown his regression.)
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:30 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



CenTexMavsFan wrote:
chiodos03 wrote:
Ryan4131 wrote: obviously not. he is an all-star caliber player

a player like jeff taylor is average
where is his all-star apperances? just askin
In GS and Mil, he was raw, young and not surrounding by good teammates.  He was an inefficient player who needed direction and a fresh start.  Thus, his reputation had become one that wasnt not very good.

Last year, he completely reversed that reputation.  He fit in great with this team, Dirk and the culture established here.  The only reason he didnt make the all-star team is because in addition to the lack of many top notch 2 guards , the PG position is SO DEEP in this league now that they are giving more spots to PG's and less to SG's.  (much like the PF/C situation).  But when talking about 2 guards, with Kobe out last year, who is better than Monta?  Everyone says Harden, but if you are going to call someone NOT elite because of their weakness then you have to consider that Harden plays ZERO defense.

Monta is an elite finisher at the rim, an elite passer, an elite passing lane clogger/stealer, a very good ball handler, a much improved jump shooter, is very quick and has got himself a nice little corner 3 shot now.  So just because his overall 3-ball is average and his man defense is average, we are going to proclaim he isnt a special player in this league?
All-Star balloting is based more on popularity than actual skills. Kobe should not have made it last year. If they replaced his spot with another SG or had true balloting by position rather than simply frontcourt/backcourt, Ellis would be at the top of a shot list of SG in the West.
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Posted: 7/30/2014 1:34 PM

Re: Is "Ellis is an average NBA player" a legit 



CenTexMavsFan wrote:
chiodos03 wrote: I cant deal with tardsville

Out of the 29 other starting shooting guards in this league, can you name those that are clearly overall better than Monta at this point in their respective careers?  (BTW Kobe is absolutely unproven after his injury and Wade has shown his regression.)
dude is a massive monta hater. dont bother
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