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Catcher defense

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Posted: 10/9/2012 2:47 PM

Catcher defense 


This has both Santana and Marson being pretty bad this year.
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Posted: 10/9/2012 4:24 PM

Re: Catcher defense 



GopherIndianHybrid wrote: This has both Santana and Marson being pretty bad this year.
A little surprising with Marson, but I guess the good news is he's a little better than A.J. Pierzynski or Shoppach. Surprising that Santana comes out ahead.

That being said, I just never viewed Marson as anything more than a backup catcher anyway.
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Posted: 10/9/2012 5:18 PM

Re: Catcher defense 


This is why Cleveland should bring in another catcher and let Santana play the bulk of his playing time at first... Santana is not a good catcher and he doesn't have a body of a catcher and it will end up bad for the Indians if they keep him at catcher...  Santana will be on the DL every year and his body will wear down... We need to move him soon!!!
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Posted: 10/10/2012 12:50 AM

RE: Catcher defense 


Mike Piazza was a lousy catcher...so what, he hit. Same with Santana. I can never understand anyone who wants to move one of our few assets to a position where he no longer is one and replace him with a mediocrity like Marson. Santana is one guy you do not move and you do not trade.

Anyone who didn't notice that Marson's defense tailed off badly this year and thought he had a better year defensively than Santana wasn't paying attention. Marson has to be a bitter disappointment to the organization, much like Donald and Knapp. If even one of those three turned out to be a better than major league player and Carrasco had a decent career, the Lee trade wouldn't have turned out so bad.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 6:16 AM

RE: Catcher defense 



WhoAzcue wrote: Mike Piazza was a lousy catcher...so what, he hit. Same with Santana. I can never understand anyone who wants to move one of our few assets to a position where he no longer is one and replace him with a mediocrity like Marson. Santana is one guy you do not move and you do not trade.

Anyone who didn't notice that Marson's defense tailed off badly this year and thought he had a better year defensively than Santana wasn't paying attention. Marson has to be a bitter disappointment to the organization, much like Donald and Knapp. If even one of those three turned out to be a better than major league player and Carrasco had a decent career, the Lee trade wouldn't have turned out so bad.
Agree. Never understood the Marson love. He would have to be the greatest defensive catcher of all time to justify putting him in the lineup on a regular or semi-regular basis. 

Hey Lou, hit the weight room and its OK to swing before taking two fastballs right down broadway.

Bread
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Posted: 10/10/2012 8:23 AM

RE: Catcher defense 


I like Marson as a back up catcher! If you look at the possible free agent's, there are some decent catcher's on the market...  I don't understand the concept that Santana doesn't have any value at first base... I would take Santana's number's over Kotchmans, Cleveland doesn't have a Miguel Cabrera!!!  Santana's power number's were down this year, Santana could hit 25+ homeruns....
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Posted: 10/10/2012 10:23 AM

RE: Catcher defense 



WhoAzcue wrote: Mike Piazza was a lousy catcher...so what, he hit. Same with Santana. I can never understand anyone who wants to move one of our few assets to a position where he no longer is one and replace him with a mediocrity like Marson. Santana is one guy you do not move and you do not trade.

Anyone who didn't notice that Marson's defense tailed off badly this year and thought he had a better year defensively than Santana wasn't paying attention. Marson has to be a bitter disappointment to the organization, much like Donald and Knapp. If even one of those three turned out to be a better than major league player and Carrasco had a decent career, the Lee trade wouldn't have turned out so bad.
This echoes my thoughts. I'm OK with bad defense if you hit enough to make up for it. Santana still might.

It's worth thinking about moving him to 1b, of course. I'm just not convinced.

And Marson's basically just valuable because it'd cost too much to realistically upgrade.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 11:38 AM

Re: Catcher defense 


I have a great idea. Since everybody thinks Santana is or will be a great (or at least adequate) hitter, let's make him the DH and let a genuine first baseman play first base. He and LaPorta already have proven they aren't first basemen. Depsite Kotchman's hitting problems, it was very comforting this past season to know he wasn't going to drop a low throw or make a bonehead play at first.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 12:26 PM

RE: Catcher defense 



breadman20 wrote:
WhoAzcue wrote: Mike Piazza was a lousy catcher...so what, he hit. Same with Santana. I can never understand anyone who wants to move one of our few assets to a position where he no longer is one and replace him with a mediocrity like Marson. Santana is one guy you do not move and you do not trade.

Anyone who didn't notice that Marson's defense tailed off badly this year and thought he had a better year defensively than Santana wasn't paying attention. Marson has to be a bitter disappointment to the organization, much like Donald and Knapp. If even one of those three turned out to be a better than major league player and Carrasco had a decent career, the Lee trade wouldn't have turned out so bad.
Agree. Never understood the Marson love. He would have to be the greatest defensive catcher of all time to justify putting him in the lineup on a regular or semi-regular basis. 

Hey Lou, hit the weight room and its OK to swing before taking two fastballs right down broadway.

Bread

Piazza was only bad at throwing.  He was excelllent at blocking pitches, framing pitches, blocking the plate, taking throws at the plate, being a friend and leader to the pitchers.  He had one of the worst arms ever, but if you ask most catchers, they will say Piazza was above average at everything else (non hitting).
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Posted: 10/10/2012 1:12 PM

RE: Catcher defense 


Depsite Kotchman's hitting problems, it was very comforting this past season to
know he wasn't going to drop a low throw or make a bonehead play at first.

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kotchman wasn't what he was billed to be. 6 errors in 137 games, 1,087 innings.

he'd only made 8 errors in the previous 5 seasons, 647 games, almost 5,325 innings.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 2:05 PM

Re: Catcher defense 



moonriverbuck wrote: I have a great idea. Since everybody thinks Santana is or will be a great (or at least adequate) hitter, let's make him the DH and let a genuine first baseman play first base. He and LaPorta already have proven they aren't first basemen. Depsite Kotchman's hitting problems, it was very comforting this past season to know he wasn't going to drop a low throw or make a bonehead play at first.
I don't want that! The DH spot gives us the option of giving player's like Asdrubal, Santana, Brantley, and kipnis some time off from the field, while not taking there bat out of the line up...  Santana,Cabrera and Kipnis were all over worked by Acta this year, they played alot of games, because we didn't have anybody that could replace there bat...  I wouldn't mind bringing Kotchman back to be a late inning replacement or to let him hit against pitcher's he's had success against...
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:06 PM

RE: Catcher defense 



buddy34 wrote: Depsite Kotchman's hitting problems, it was very comforting this past season to
know he wasn't going to drop a low throw or make a bonehead play at first.

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kotchman wasn't what he was billed to be. 6 errors in 137 games, 1,087 innings.

he'd only made 8 errors in the previous 5 seasons, 647 games, almost 5,325 innings.
When you have the Cle IF throwing so many balls badly you are bound to have more bounce away and get errors on them.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:14 PM

RE: Catcher defense 


that may have contributed, but generally crappy throws are counted against the thrower, not the first baseman.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:25 PM

RE: Catcher defense 



buddy34 wrote: that may have contributed, but generally crappy throws are counted against the thrower, not the first baseman.

I agree. And for the life of me I cannot believe that anybody would actually be ok with Kotchman coming back for another season. That to me is mind boggling.

First base is and always has been (and should be) an offense first position. Especially when your team struggles to score runs.

Last edited 10/10/2012 3:25 PM by TitoFrancona

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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:27 PM

RE: Catcher defense 


The Indians would have been better offensively with Marson's 84 OPS+ and Santana at 1B than Kotchman's 73 OPS+ and Santana at C.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:32 PM

RE: Catcher defense 


This same rating system had Marson as the 5th best C in MLB for 2010.
www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2010...efense-rankings

This same rating system had Marson as the 3rd best C in MLB for 2011.
www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011...efense-rankings

You need to be careful using one year's defensive stats for a part time player who had less defensive PA in 2012 than in the prior 2 years.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:34 PM

RE: Catcher defense 


Santana was 65th, 59th and 92nd the last 3 years. So he was worse this year according to this rating.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 3:43 PM

RE: Catcher defense 


good point on defensive stats - taking a longer view will always yield a better idea of what a guy can or can't do.
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Posted: 10/10/2012 5:47 PM

RE: Catcher defense 



ronfh wrote: Santana was 65th, 59th and 92nd the last 3 years. So he was worse this year according to this rating.
  I would take a catcher that can't hit, but can throw out runner's and know how to handle the pitching staff...  You should also look at how bad our catcher's throw out runner's, it's pathetic!!!  Santana needs to be moved!!!  Marson is a really good catcher that had an off year.... I would throw Marson out there any time we have a left handed pitcher starting against us... Santana would make a decent first baseman; he isn't going to be Albert P, or Miguel Cabrera, but he's better then anything on the free agent market that will not cost us 100 million....
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Posted: 10/11/2012 4:48 AM

RE: Catcher defense 


Casper you'd have some validity to your point if this team didn't have by far the worst staff at holding runners on base. Especially in the starting rotation. Masterson, Jimenez and McAllister were all awful at holding runners. It was beyond pathetic. The catcher needs to have a chance to throw the guy out.
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