Posted: 9/28/2012 2:37 PM
Last edited 9/28/2012 2:37 PM by ronfh
Posted: 9/28/2012 2:40 PM
Posted: 9/28/2012 2:41 PM
Last edited 9/28/2012 2:43 PM by DCTribefan
Posted: 9/28/2012 3:05 PM
ronfh wrote: I wish Shapiro would give us the details on what the challenges are which were the creation of the org and the others which were the result of other decisions.
Posted: 9/28/2012 3:07 PM
ronfh wrote: "But I feel he's controlled the bulk of what he can control well."
Last edited 9/28/2012 3:07 PM by mooseahoy
Posted: 9/28/2012 3:25 PM
ronfh wrote: Team president Mark Shapiro said on Thursday that the organization has confidence in Antonetti's strategy for the building of a contending team. "We obviously look at a broad range of criteria when we're evaluating everybody," Shapiro said. "Chris is dealing with a set of challenges, which I understand, some of which are the creation of the organization that he and I ran together, and some of which are the result of other decisions. "But I feel he's controlled the bulk of what he can control well. [Indians CEO Paul Dolan] and I still endorse strongly [Antonetti's] vision for how we can be competitive and, ultimately, a championship team. "We feel that he's uniquely qualified and more capable than any other person in leading us to that outcome."http://cleveland.indians.mlb.c...rticle_39130812
Posted: 9/28/2012 3:33 PM
Posted: 9/28/2012 4:02 PM
ronfh wrote: "Manny's not the only one to blame," Antonetti said....That status quo just not good enough anymore.What’s the definition of insanity? Ah yes, it’s doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting different resultsWell, here we go again....With that said, Manny Acta needed to be fired, because this team needs to go in a different direction.But if the Indians aren’t firing the general manager and president that constructed both the personnel and the philosophy of this team since 2001, what are they really doing?Is Chris Antonetti suddenly going to figure things out?Is Mark Shapiro going to force Antonetti to do something that doesn’t fit into the context of their “stable environment?”Are the Indians going to start taking the risks that are needed to take the next steps into contention?No freakin' way.The Dolans are still going to be the frugal, mind-numbing owners that have the PR sense of BP after their gulf oil disaster a couple years back.Mark Shapiro is still going to talk about having the money to make moves, then follow with a cautionary tale about something with regards to making those moves...then never make them.Chris Antonetti is going to continue to sign hundreds of former major leaguers that are about 31, who have about 40 games of major league experience, used to be #4 prospects for their teams about seven years ago, and can't hit major league pitching.http://www.indiansprospectinsi...-to-blame-32547
Posted: 9/28/2012 5:53 PM
Posted: 9/28/2012 6:01 PM
Posted: 9/28/2012 9:43 PM
TitoFrancona wrote: Keeping Antonetti but firing Acta is kind of like buying new tires on a car that is in need of a front end alignment. Tires aren't going to do much good without that alignment.
Posted: 9/29/2012 6:44 AM
Last edited 9/29/2012 6:48 AM by KMSbuck
Posted: 9/29/2012 9:05 AM
Posted: 9/29/2012 12:04 PM
jameseboy wrote: Why do so many want to ignore reality and rant about anyone stating facts. The market is small and attendance is poor. It fell off sharply after the string of sell outs and reverted to the norm of the rest of the last 50 years but spmehow Shapiro is Alize or spinner if he mentions it. With reality comes the need to take chances. Some work some dont. I a certain with an unlimited budget we would have seen Pujoles at first ad CC and Lee in the rotation and everyone could say our front office was brilliant. Money all was all about accepting the reality and creating a new matrix to Perdue success. We have a matrix we ignore. We have almost no money committed long term. We could literally release everyone on the team and proceed with no money tied up in salary. What we will do is build the rest of the team around young cheap talent. If you don't like this team you have an excellent chance of seeing a much different team next year
Posted: 9/29/2012 2:37 PM
KMSbuck wrote: Clearly there are issues that are out of a GM's control and player performance expectations are a serious issue, but there are a lot of systematic and organizational problems that are completely controllable and have nothing to do with "small market realities" and "economic challenges" that, until taken seriously, will continue set this team up for failure.
Posted: 9/29/2012 4:47 PM
WhoAzcue wrote: One thing you didn't raise is an issue I keep wondering about: where does this organization now stand with respect to the continuum between old-fashioned baseball scouting and modern analytical techniques? Are we balanced? Leaning one direction or another? Blended? And where's Waldo? (Keith Woolner) And how much did our reliance on one approach or another lead us to the current circumstances and is it now discredited? Or it too the victim of poor luck?
Posted: 9/30/2012 3:20 AM
JenniferMarie wrote: ronfh wrote: Team president Mark Shapiro said on Thursday that the organization has confidence in Antonetti's strategy for the building of a contending team. "We obviously look at a broad range of criteria when we're evaluating everybody," Shapiro said. "Chris is dealing with a set of challenges, which I understand, some of which are the creation of the organization that he and I ran together, and some of which are the result of other decisions. "But I feel he's controlled the bulk of what he can control well. [Indians CEO Paul Dolan] and I still endorse strongly [Antonetti's] vision for how we can be competitive and, ultimately, a championship team. "We feel that he's uniquely qualified and more capable than any other person in leading us to that outcome."http://cleveland.indians.mlb.c...rticle_39130812At this point it appears that if there was an interview Bastian was doing a one on one because every site that offers the Shapiro quotes about Antonetti coming back sources Bastian.It is also possible that there was not even an interview but Shapiro and Dolan's comments were from a media handout.
Posted: 9/30/2012 9:41 AM
KMSbuck wrote: Regarding the "controllable" issues, I think Shapiro believes that the decisions Antonetti has made (or that he is ultimately responsible for) were the right ones, but the negative results were because of bad luck.While I'm not a big fan of the FO, there's is some truth to it depending on how objective you want to be and what model you are using for accessing risk/reward. Some would say that the moves he made were based on logical projections of past performance and reasonable likelihoods, others would say that signs were ignored and wishful thinking became the model. The easiest thing to do is apply hindsight and say the moves Antonetti is responsible for were horrible, but I'm sure even the most cynical Tribe fans were hoping that some of these moves would pan out and at some level a logical basis for why they might be good was at least entertained.Was it completely stupid to think Kotchman would at least fall somewhere between his career .260 and the previous year's .300?Was it obvious that Damon was washed up when he stole nearly 20 bases and hit 16 home runs while playing 150 games for Tampa last year?Was it unreasonable to think Sizemore's rehab would go well and he could at least contribute something?Is it out of the realm of possibility to expect Jimenez to receive coaching and be able to fix his mechanics?Is it crazy to expect that Santana would take the next logical step in his development and raise his average and hit for more power?Could it have been predicted or even expected that Tomlin, Masterson and Gomez would all seriously underperform in the same year?There's more, but a lot of the problems this year were not necessarily reasonable to expect, Hafner's injuries notwithstanding. I can see this side of their story. However, there is the negative evaluation that does not rely on hindsight that is disconcerting:Is there a model that shows that a lineup of mostly left handed bats has been successful and that teams wouldn't exploit it to the tune of calling up LH minor league pitchers to make "emergency starts" and then using mostly LH relievers from the 6th inning on?If they do believe that left handed heavy lineups are the next big thing, why would you not want at least one left handed starter on your roster? I guess it's a chess vs. checkers thing.When your system is completely devoid of right handed power hitters, why in the world would you not see that as a critical position of need in the draft or in your FA/trading strategy? Is it because you have secret evidence that projects Shelley Duncan and Matt Laporta to be regular, contributing power hitters?When it's obvious your team can't hit for power, why would you not tell your manager that he might want to mix in a little 'small ball' strategy and try to manufacture some runs? Why does the system continue to produce players that have low baseball IQs? Plate discipline, base running, fielding fundamentals are all consistently poor on a team that can't afford them to be.Why is it necessary to tell the fans that you are in serious discussions to sign free agents you have absolutely no intention of signing? Do you think we are that stupid?Do you really believe that it is a fan's responsibility to support a product, in a down economy, that it doesn't believe in and that the only hope we have of seeing serious attempts at acquiring even mid-level players the roster is desperate for, is if we do fill the stands? Does "if they come, we will build it" even make sense? It's like GM saying that if consumers buy our crappy car, we'll start to invest in ways to make it better.Clearly there are issues that are out of a GM's control and player performance expectations are a serious issue, but there are a lot of systematic and organizational problems that are completely controllable and have nothing to do with "small market realities" and "economic challenges" that, until taken seriously, will continue set this team up for failure.
Posted: 10/3/2012 12:10 AM
Posted: 10/3/2012 12:12 AM
JenniferMarie wrote: A prudent FO gathers as much information as possible and on an individual case basis examines the information, explores the reason(s) for conflict and then makes an informed judgment.
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