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The Carlos Carrasco Mystery

Posted: 8/4/2014 10:21 PM

The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


OK so Francona supposedly stated that CC the 2nd has proven to be solid in the bullpen and should be looked to for more important work.  Yet, CC gets sent in during a 10 run game instead of using Adams for two+ innings in spite of the fact Adams was going to be sent down for House the next day.  Oh and during a 12 inning baseball game a day later, he isn't ever called on.
WTH is going on?  Could there be some deep dark desire by Francona to use Carlos as a starter again so he is afraid of using him like a regular reliever?  I don't get the random and inexplicable misuse of the bullpen.
Today is another example, while not directly affecting Carlos (although him pitching the final two frames of a 5 run game would seem to be a good use of his talents) but why you don't figure to use Hagadone (prime candidate to be sent down) to start an inning makes no sense.  Instead now you needed to use Axford after using him yesterday, so he is out, and Hagadone who also went two days in a row might not be available, regardless if he is sent down or not.
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Posted: 8/4/2014 10:25 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


francona's bullpen usage is largely inexplicable
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Posted: 8/5/2014 12:36 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


The shame of it all is that we're down to the last five men standing--Kluber, Bauer, Salazar, Tomlin, House (and who would have predicted that would be our rotation down the stretch of contention?)--and we could use a truly viable sixth guy in case one of them falters due to injury or ineffectiveness, and that guy is Carlos Carrasco. And yet, the way Terry uses him (infrequently, if at all) means he'll never be ready for a critical assignment as a starter when that time inevitably comes.

{shaking my head in disgust}
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  • CDAV45
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Posted: 8/5/2014 6:01 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


Josh Tomlin, as much as I like him, should not be an option for this rotation unless someone is injured.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:34 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 



CDAV45 wrote: Josh Tomlin, as much as I like him, should not be an option for this rotation unless someone is injured.

Yes, I would prefer Carrasco to be starting. Maybe he has been working on it on the side?

There is always the August 31 deadline. AJ Burnett is an interesting guy who might stand a chance of slipping to us (he has already been placed on waivers). Amaro is so bad that he may ask for Lindor or bust.

I would expect Cleveland to put a claim in on Jason Hammel if he gets to us (which he may very well), though I don't know if a deal could be worked out.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:43 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


Wow, lets not overstate how awful Tomlin has been.  
He's got a career WHIP of 1.2 (there's like 30  pitchers in all of baseball this year with better whips THAN HIS CAREER numbers)
This year he's struck out 80 batters and walked 10 (which is definitely better than career numbers)
1/3 of his starts are Quality starts.

He's had a pretty brutal July, but his May and June were VERY good. He's not the worst starter in the league by far.  There's only like 30 guys in the AL pitching better than him this year....maybe my expectations are too low.
CDAV45 wrote: Josh Tomlin, as much as I like him, should not be an option for this rotation unless someone is injured.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:47 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


tomlin absolutely deserves to be in this rotation. i'll take a 3.11 xFIP every day.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:20 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 





---------------------------------------------
--- buddy34 wrote:

tomlin absolutely deserves to be in this rotation. i'll take a 3.11 xFIP every day.

---------------------------------------------

Yeah, after I posted I looked at that and thought he deserves it.

Would still rather give Carrasco a shot than House. Glad to have Bauer getting the opportunity to learn on the job in pretty relevant games and doing a pretty good job.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:23 AM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


i'm on board with giving carrasco another look, but house has been pretty solid too. the indians certainly have options, even if they don't bring in anyone else.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 2:07 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


Not using a pitcher very often isn't really preparing him to go back into a starter's role, unless he is throwing some long bullpen sessions in between. I really hope this isn't an option- Carrasco has had more than a few opportunities to establish himself as a starter in the bigs and has failed. He has shown, in the spots he has been used, to be capable. The Peter principle is looking about right with him right now.


As for the sporadic usage, not really sure what Francona is thinking but then again I am not the manager who has to try and get something out of a guy who was a total dumpster fire as a starter to begin the season. Carrasco going in a few days ago well could have been Francona trying to get him some work, nothing more. If his response was to go give up a run, then maybe that is an anwer unto itself. Point is, Francona is a tough spot with Carrasco- trying to have him be useful without letting him sabotage anymore of the season than he already has. Seeing as Francona did a pretty good job nursing along another failure in Lonnie Chisenhall, starting him off as a DH against righties then slowly giving him more challenges. Have to assume this is part of his thinking with Carlos.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 3:31 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


The problem with that thinking is that Carlos has been in other high-leverage situations and shut down the opposition.  Every reliever gives up runs, just because Carlos is gives up one or two during a blowout shouldn't be used against him.
He has had a "few opportunities" and struggled, but he also had a decent stretch in his second call-up and then the start of the following season before his injury where he was pretty successful. 
allhailshapiro wrote: Not using a pitcher very often isn't really preparing him to go back into a starter's role, unless he is throwing some long bullpen sessions in between. I really hope this isn't an option- Carrasco has had more than a few opportunities to establish himself as a starter in the bigs and has failed. He has shown, in the spots he has been used, to be capable. The Peter principle is looking about right with him right now.


As for the sporadic usage, not really sure what Francona is thinking but then again I am not the manager who has to try and get something out of a guy who was a total dumpster fire as a starter to begin the season. Carrasco going in a few days ago well could have been Francona trying to get him some work, nothing more. If his response was to go give up a run, then maybe that is an anwer unto itself. Point is, Francona is a tough spot with Carrasco- trying to have him be useful without letting him sabotage anymore of the season than he already has. Seeing as Francona did a pretty good job nursing along another failure in Lonnie Chisenhall, starting him off as a DH against righties then slowly giving him more challenges. Have to assume this is part of his thinking with Carlos.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 4:19 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


I want Tomlin in the rotation WAY before I want Carrasco

I actually like Carrasco But until he goes to some sports therapist or something him in the rotation would be a MAJOR mistake. It's all mental with him. He's a better pitcher then Tomlin is when it just comes down to pitching but he needs his head on straight
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:25 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


Carrasco needs to pitch sometimes but he's still basically the long guy so his usage is sporadic...

I don't think you can turn him back to starting at this point in the season without risking injury...
now next spring I def would like to see him get another shot at starting
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:46 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


so maybe the issue isn't tomlin v carrasco but rather the fo's ability to find starting pitchers
-

given the reds lineup tonight, tomlin should've worn a clippers uni - and he still got his azz kicked 


btw, mcallister gave up 2 hits in 7 innings today for the clippers - whatdoyoudo
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Posted: 8/5/2014 8:57 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 



cmasbuck wrote: so maybe the issue isn't tomlin v carrasco but rather the fo's ability to find starting pitchers
-

given the reds lineup tonight, tomlin should've worn a clippers uni - and he still got his azz kicked 


btw, mcallister gave up 2 hits in 7 innings today for the clippers - whatdoyoudo
Tomlin didn't really get beat up.  He made three mistakes, the two doubles and the homer.  one of the doubles shouldn't have scored, and only did because of the error.  The homer should have been 2 runs instead of 3 since he inexplicably plunked a runner to get on.  And the second double scored on an infield single that JRam probably should have barehanded to get the runner and prevent a run.
And the last run scored on a stinking double-steal, that was set up on a seeing-eye single on a pitch out of the zone that the hitter did everything wrong on.
In other words, Tomlin really wasn't getting hit around the yard.  I wouldn't mind seeing Carlos get a chance but unfortunately it is probably too late for Carlos to be re-inserted into the rotation, but he deserves a shot in ST next year.  However in the competition between ZMac and Tomlin, Tomlin still has the lead although I wonder if he is showing signs of fatigue this being his first full year back from TJ surgery.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:02 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote: Carrasco needs to pitch sometimes but he's still basically the long guy so his usage is sporadic...

I don't think you can turn him back to starting at this point in the season without risking injury...
now next spring I def would like to see him get another shot at starting
The thing is Francona doesn't seem to know how to properly use a long guy?  Instead he always tries to mix and match in the 4th inning or so even when the starter is pulled early.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:08 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 


That 'decent stretch' was a long time ago, Hawaii, and he has had 3 shots at starting since then and been a turd.  You have to know when to stop- Einstein or someone else had a quote about doing ths ame thing over and over and expecting different results.  Carrasco has shown for whatever reason he can't mentally handle starting, he gets so amped up that he goes Kirk Gibson on the other team or he gets so gunshy because of that and gets shelled.  He has shown he can handle long work- keep him there with small doses in other roles.  Francona has done just that.  Hell just a week or two ago he put Carlos in back to back to see how he responded.  His velo was down 3-4 mph and he struggled.  Baby steps, he can try again later.

I think tonight kind of showed why he gets used the way he does, though- as the long man, and with so many of our starters capable of implosions lately (Tomlin, McAlister, House) Francona needs to keep Carrasco on the ready so he doesn't smoke the bullpen.  As someone put it so well either in here or elsewhere, the cupboard is bare right now in terms of starters- Tyle Cloyd to the rescue!!!!!- so the need for a capable longman is there.  For now, until something stabilizes with this rotation, Carrasco is it. 


Hawaii007 wrote: The problem with that thinking is that Carlos has been in other high-leverage situations and shut down the opposition.  Every reliever gives up runs, just because Carlos is gives up one or two during a blowout shouldn't be used against him.
He has had a "few opportunities" and struggled, but he also had a decent stretch in his second call-up and then the start of the following season before his injury where he was pretty successful. 
allhailshapiro wrote: Not using a pitcher very often isn't really preparing him to go back into a starter's role, unless he is throwing some long bullpen sessions in between. I really hope this isn't an option- Carrasco has had more than a few opportunities to establish himself as a starter in the bigs and has failed. He has shown, in the spots he has been used, to be capable. The Peter principle is looking about right with him right now.


As for the sporadic usage, not really sure what Francona is thinking but then again I am not the manager who has to try and get something out of a guy who was a total dumpster fire as a starter to begin the season. Carrasco going in a few days ago well could have been Francona trying to get him some work, nothing more. If his response was to go give up a run, then maybe that is an anwer unto itself. Point is, Francona is a tough spot with Carrasco- trying to have him be useful without letting him sabotage anymore of the season than he already has. Seeing as Francona did a pretty good job nursing along another failure in Lonnie Chisenhall, starting him off as a DH against righties then slowly giving him more challenges. Have to assume this is part of his thinking with Carlos.
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:09 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 



cmasbuck wrote: so maybe the issue isn't tomlin v carrasco but rather the fo's ability to find starting pitchers
-

given the reds lineup tonight, tomlin should've worn a clippers uni - and he still got his azz kicked 


btw, mcallister gave up 2 hits in 7 innings today for the clippers - whatdoyoudo

BINGO 

The needs this team have now are pretty much the same exact needs that they have had for the last couple of years and they havent been addressed and that's why I have a strong dislike for this FO
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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:27 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 



allhailshapiro wrote: That 'decent stretch' was a long time ago, Hawaii, and he has had 3 shots at starting since then and been a turd.  You have to know when to stop- Einstein or someone else had a quote about doing ths ame thing over and over and expecting different results.  Carrasco has shown for whatever reason he can't mentally handle starting, he gets so amped up that he goes Kirk Gibson on the other team or he gets so gunshy because of that and gets shelled.  He has shown he can handle long work- keep him there with small doses in other roles.  Francona has done just that.  Hell just a week or two ago he put Carlos in back to back to see how he responded.  His velo was down 3-4 mph and he struggled.  Baby steps, he can try again later.

I think tonight kind of showed why he gets used the way he does, though- as the long man, and with so many of our starters capable of implosions lately (Tomlin, McAlister, House) Francona needs to keep Carrasco on the ready so he doesn't smoke the bullpen.  As someone put it so well either in here or elsewhere, the cupboard is bare right now in terms of starters- Tyle Cloyd to the rescue!!!!!- so the need for a capable longman is there.  For now, until something stabilizes with this rotation, Carrasco is it. 


Hawaii007 wrote: The problem with that thinking is that Carlos has been in other high-leverage situations and shut down the opposition.  Every reliever gives up runs, just because Carlos is gives up one or two during a blowout shouldn't be used against him.
He has had a "few opportunities" and struggled, but he also had a decent stretch in his second call-up and then the start of the following season before his injury where he was pretty successful. 
allhailshapiro wrote: Not using a pitcher very often isn't really preparing him to go back into a starter's role, unless he is throwing some long bullpen sessions in between. I really hope this isn't an option- Carrasco has had more than a few opportunities to establish himself as a starter in the bigs and has failed. He has shown, in the spots he has been used, to be capable. The Peter principle is looking about right with him right now.


As for the sporadic usage, not really sure what Francona is thinking but then again I am not the manager who has to try and get something out of a guy who was a total dumpster fire as a starter to begin the season. Carrasco going in a few days ago well could have been Francona trying to get him some work, nothing more. If his response was to go give up a run, then maybe that is an anwer unto itself. Point is, Francona is a tough spot with Carrasco- trying to have him be useful without letting him sabotage anymore of the season than he already has. Seeing as Francona did a pretty good job nursing along another failure in Lonnie Chisenhall, starting him off as a DH against righties then slowly giving him more challenges. Have to assume this is part of his thinking with Carlos.
Although his decent stretch was a long time ago, he had TJ surgery that took him out for pretty much 1.5 years.  He was on the Columbus shuttle last year back and forth and actually pitched great as a starter in AAA last year.  This year he had some struggles and was pulled from the rotation after a month.  So he has never had a full year of just being a starter at the ML level, automatically considering him a unredeemable as a starter when the results have been incomplete and mixed is premature.
Francona's handling of Carlos has been horrible in the bullpen.  The point I have been making is he actually never uses him in long relief situations, nor has he tried to use him for multiple innings with the intent of saving other arms, like in extra inning games!  He just throws him out there when he can't think of anyone else to use!  And using him two days in a row was stupid and shouldn't have ever been done in the first place this year.

Last edited 8/5/2014 9:28 PM by Hawaii007

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Posted: 8/5/2014 9:40 PM

Re: The Carlos Carrasco Mystery 



Hawaii007 wrote:
cmasbuck wrote: so maybe the issue isn't tomlin v carrasco but rather the fo's ability to find starting pitchers
-

given the reds lineup tonight, tomlin should've worn a clippers uni - and he still got his azz kicked 


btw, mcallister gave up 2 hits in 7 innings today for the clippers - whatdoyoudo
Tomlin didn't really get beat up.  He made three mistakes, the two doubles and the homer.  one of the doubles shouldn't have scored, and only did because of the error.  The homer should have been 2 runs instead of 3 since he inexplicably plunked a runner to get on.  And the second double scored on an infield single that JRam probably should have barehanded to get the runner and prevent a run.
And the last run scored on a stinking double-steal, that was set up on a seeing-eye single on a pitch out of the zone that the hitter did everything wrong on.
In other words, Tomlin really wasn't getting hit around the yard.  I wouldn't mind seeing Carlos get a chance but unfortunately it is probably too late for Carlos to be re-inserted into the rotation, but he deserves a shot in ST next year.  However in the competition between ZMac and Tomlin, Tomlin still has the lead although I wonder if he is showing signs of fatigue this being his first full year back from TJ surgery.
he's had one equality start in his last 9 appearances - the blind squirrel one hitter - the reds might've had the worst lineup in baseball tonight and tomlin got knocked around - 30 year old "prospects" we don't need
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