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John Hart Did What?

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Posted: 5/6/2013 10:00 AM

John Hart Did What? 


Interesting article about how John Hart three times traded away players for zero compensation.  

“I would venture to say this,” says Hart. “You try to get compensation but if you can’t, there generally becomes goodwill between the clubs. So if you’re caught somewhere during the middle of the season—you’ve had some injuries and need some middle infielders—you might get some help” from the club that benefited from the donated player. “Everybody,” Hart says, “gets caught like that.”


http://www.businessweek.com/ar...nothing-dot-why
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Posted: 5/6/2013 10:05 AM

Re: John Hart Did What? 


Is this an article about Brian Giles?
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Posted: 5/6/2013 11:18 AM

RE: John Hart Did What? 


Maybe Hart's worst trade ever. We got one good season out of Ricky (2001). Giles went on to have a very fine career.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 11:57 AM

RE: John Hart Did What? 


If I recall Giles was blocked pretty good at the time and was not going to get the playing time here we just did not get the quality in return we should have but out team was also pretty stacked at that time.





Bigfist wrote: Maybe Hart's worst trade ever. We got one good season out of Ricky (2001). Giles went on to have a very fine career.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 12:02 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote: Is this an article about Brian Giles?
No.  It is talking about Hart's policy (followed by Shapiro and Antonetti) of trading or releasing guys where for whatever reason don't fit into the Tribe's future in any kind of important way.  Think, for example, of players signing minor league deals in the off season that the Tribe released instead of sending them to the minors.The most recent example is Ben Francisco during spring training.  As soon as the Tribe so they didn't need him they released him.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 12:04 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 



kcatthebat wrote: If I recall Giles was blocked pretty good at the time and was not going to get the playing time here we just did not get the quality in return we should have but out team was also pretty stacked at that time.





Bigfist wrote: Maybe Hart's worst trade ever. We got one good season out of Ricky (2001). Giles went on to have a very fine career.
You remember correctly.  The Tribe also desperately needed a LH reliever.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 12:26 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 


The Giles trade is one of the most indefensible trades ever made. Manny Ramirez was on his way to free agency and David Justice was 33 years old. As best as I can tell, we entered the season with Harold Baines as our primary DH. Brian Giles was coming off of a 4 win season in 430 PA.

The end of Hart's tenure when he was desperately chasing a championship is a complete disaster.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 12:30 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 



JenniferMarie wrote:
MrBananaGrabber85 wrote: Is this an article about Brian Giles?
No.  

I thought the sarcasm would show through, but apparently I didn't do a good enough job of it.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 1:10 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote: The Giles trade is one of the most indefensible trades ever made. Manny Ramirez was on his way to free agency and David Justice was 33 years old. As best as I can tell, we entered the season with Harold Baines as our primary DH. Brian Giles was coming off of a 4 win season in 430 PA.

The end of Hart's tenure when he was desperately chasing a championship is a complete disaster.
At the time of the trade it looked like Hart gave up a little too much for a little too little.  It only becomes a horrible trade with the advantage of hindsight.

After the end of the 1998 season the Tribe had a surplus of hitting and badly needed a lefty in the pen to get out LH hitters.

Hart traded the future to "win now."  The old window of opportunity philosophy.  

Giles at the age of 26 in 1997 in 377 ABs hit .268/.368/.459/.827 with 15 doubles and 16 homers.  He had good speed and played good defense.

At 27 in 1998 in 350 ABs hit ,269/.396/.460/.856 with 19 doubles and 17 homers.

He was also hitting in a lineup with a very good offense consequently having a lot of runners on base when he hit.

Based on his 1997 and 1998 numbers, as well as his age, some improvement could have been anticipated but not nearly as much as actually occurred.

Rincon at 28 in 1998 against LH hitters faced 84 who hit .131/,207/.190/.397 against him.

He proved to be a disappointment.

Hart gave up too much for what he got in the trade but it only looks as bad as it now does because of hindsight.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 1:26 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 


It doesn't require hindsight for that trade to be awful. Giles didn't have to improve as he had already posted a 4 win season the previous year in 2/3 of a season (though I will grant that his fielding numbers inflated this, so let's call it something like a 2 win season). The guy looked pretty easily like a 120 wRC+ player going forward. That's more valuable than almost any reliever. The fact that he immediately turned into a 150 wRC+ player just makes it all the worse.

It doesn't take hindsight to know that David Justice and Manny Ramirez were certainly not BOTH long-term Indians. Or that our DHs were Wil Cordero and Harold Baines at the time.

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Posted: 5/6/2013 1:36 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote: The Giles trade is one of the most indefensible trades ever made. Manny Ramirez was on his way to free agency and David Justice was 33 years old. As best as I can tell, we entered the season with Harold Baines as our primary DH. Brian Giles was coming off of a 4 win season in 430 PA.

The end of Hart's tenure when he was desperately chasing a championship is a complete disaster.
Yep.  They abandoned the model and unfortunately it seems many FO's lose their bearings when the chase mentality takes over:  stupidity in the guise of conventional wisdom.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 1:48 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:

It doesn't require hindsight for that trade to be awful. Giles didn't have to improve as he had already posted a 4 win season the previous year in 2/3 of a season (though I will grant that his fielding numbers inflated this, so let's call it something like a 2 win season). The guy looked pretty easily like a 120 wRC+ player going forward. That's more valuable than almost any reliever. The fact that he immediately turned into a 150 wRC+ player just makes it all the worse.

It doesn't take hindsight to know that David Justice and Manny Ramirez were certainly not BOTH long-term Indians. Or that our DHs were Wil Cordero and Harold Baines at the time.

Hmmm!  You are using stats that didn't exist at the time.

In any event, you are looking and evaluating it from a different POV than Hart.  You want to look at it from the standpoint of how the trade would impact the Tribe's future while Hart viewed it from the standpoint of how it effects us now.  From that standpoint it was not a good trade but it wasn't horrible.

It seems to me your real objection is that Hart should not have traded away the future for the present.  And, if so, I completely agree with you.

During this period of time Hart did a lot of this including the trading of three additional future all-stars -- Casey, Graves and Sexson and having only really Wickman to show for it.  This talent was traded at a time when the farm system had become thin and set the stage for the 21st Century fall from contention.

On a positive note Shapiro and Antonetti both learned the lesson of not trading young talent when it can't later be replaced from within the system.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 2:00 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 


Using stats that didn't exist at the time isn't really relavent. It just puts into context how good he actually was. I would like to think that the Indians were beyond looking at BA, RBI, and HR to evaluate a player in 1998. Even if they weren't, Giles still stacked up pretty well.

 

In any event, you are looking and evaluating it from a different POV than Hart.  You want to look at it from the standpoint of how the trade would impact the Tribe's future while Hart viewed it from the standpoint of how it effects us now.  From that standpoint it was not a good trade but it wasn't horrible.

It seems to me your real objection is that Hart should not have traded away the future for the present.  And, if so, I completely agree with you.

It's more than that. The team was better with Brian Giles + available LH reliever than Cordero/Baines + Rincon. I would have less of an objection to the trade, but Giles had already demonstrated that he was at least an above average MLB hitter. He had done so over a pretty decent chunk of time and plate appearances, too.

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Posted: 5/6/2013 2:17 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:

It doesn't require hindsight for that trade to be awful. Giles didn't have to improve as he had already posted a 4 win season the previous year in 2/3 of a season (though I will grant that his fielding numbers inflated this, so let's call it something like a 2 win season). The guy looked pretty easily like a 120 wRC+ player going forward. That's more valuable than almost any reliever. The fact that he immediately turned into a 150 wRC+ player just makes it all the worse.

It doesn't take hindsight to know that David Justice and Manny Ramirez were certainly not BOTH long-term Indians. Or that our DHs were Wil Cordero and Harold Baines at the time.

+1

He had the 3rd highest OPS on the team, was under team control, and was 27 and coming into his prime years.

Trading this away for a reliever is LUNACY.

It would be like trading Nick Swisher away for a reliever, only if Swisher was younger and better. (Edit:Whoops! -and cheaper.)

Last edited 5/6/2013 2:18 PM by Ocramruf

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Posted: 5/6/2013 3:13 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 


The trade was fine.  Nobody - NOBODY at the time worried about losing him and we were excited to get a dominate lefty reliever - the fact the reliever went south and Giles... for SOME reason suddenly became a power hitter (for four years - hmmm wonder what types of things went on that might make a marginal power guy (career slugging in the minors of .450 at age 2) become an overnight power guy in the late 1990s and early 2000s?  hmmm....  and then lose that power over night at age 32...  just sayin'

Either way - rather he had help or not - there was no way to predict Giles... a guy who slugged .450 in the minors... and .459 and .460 in his two near full seasons with the indians at age 26 and 27... would suddenly slugg .614, .594, .590, .622 for four seasons... (and then like it came that power would vanish!) 

Rincon was a lefty the indians desperately needed - who couldn't stay healthy...

didn't work out - but at the time it seemed like a decent idea...

Don't forget the indians not only had Lofton, Ramirez and Justice but also guys like Sexson and Branyon that they were high on that were not natural OF but were projected there given the others we had in the IF...
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Posted: 5/6/2013 3:15 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote: The trade was fine.  Nobody - NOBODY at the time worried about losing him and we were excited to get a dominate lefty reliever - the fact the reliever went south and Giles... for SOME reason suddenly became a power hitter (for four years - hmmm wonder what types of things went on that might make a marginal power guy (career slugging in the minors of .450 at age 2) become an overnight power guy in the late 1990s and early 2000s?  hmmm....  and then lose that power over night at age 32...  just sayin'
This is as low as it gets. Justifying an awful trade with the insinuation that Giles used PED.

Interesting that you can say that "NOBODY" worried about losing him at the time, too.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 3:16 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote:
Don't forget the indians not only had Lofton, Ramirez and Justice but also guys like Sexson and Branyon that they were high on that were not natural OF but were projected there given the others we had in the IF...

And those guys (Sexson and Branyan) would have done well at the time to turn into what Giles already was.

Why are you pretending he wasn't already an above average MLB hitter, but crowing how Rincon was "dominate" based on a similar sample.

Last edited 5/6/2013 3:17 PM by MrBananaGrabber85

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Posted: 5/6/2013 3:16 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 



JenniferMarie wrote:
MrBananaGrabber85 wrote: Is this an article about Brian Giles?
No.  It is talking about Hart's policy (followed by Shapiro and Antonetti) of trading or releasing guys where for whatever reason don't fit into the Tribe's future in any kind of important way.  Think, for example, of players signing minor league deals in the off season that the Tribe released instead of sending them to the minors.The most recent example is Ben Francisco during spring training.  As soon as the Tribe so they didn't need him they released him.
FWIW I think Hart is right on.  I think the indians benifit from the good will from other organizations and particuarly the players who seem very willing to take a shot here knowing they will be let go if they can find a spot elsewhere...
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Posted: 5/6/2013 3:29 PM

Re: John Hart Did What? 



buckeyedanpt2 wrote: The trade was fine.  Nobody - NOBODY at the time worried about losing him and we were excited to get a dominate lefty reliever - the fact the reliever went south and Giles... for SOME reason suddenly became a power hitter (for four years - hmmm wonder what types of things went on that might make a marginal power guy (career slugging in the minors of .450 at age 2) become an overnight power guy in the late 1990s and early 2000s?  hmmm....  and then lose that power over night at age 32...  just sayin'

Either way - rather he had help or not - there was no way to predict Giles... a guy who slugged .450 in the minors... and .459 and .460 in his two near full seasons with the indians at age 26 and 27... would suddenly slugg .614, .594, .590, .622 for four seasons... (and then like it came that power would vanish!) 

Rincon was a lefty the indians desperately needed - who couldn't stay healthy...

didn't work out - but at the time it seemed like a decent idea...

Don't forget the indians not only had Lofton, Ramirez and Justice but also guys like Sexson and Branyon that they were high on that were not natural OF but were projected there given the others we had in the IF...
All of the "didn't work out" talk is a red herring. Even if Rincon had remained exactly what he had been and Giles had remained exactly what he had been it would have been awful value.

They traded a dollar for a quarter. Even if they had lots of other dollars, and really really wanted a quarter, a dollar is still worth more than a quarter.
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Posted: 5/6/2013 3:31 PM

RE: John Hart Did What? 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:

Using stats that didn't exist at the time isn't really relavent. It just puts into context how good he actually was. I would like to think that the Indians were beyond looking at BA, RBI, and HR to evaluate a player in 1998. Even if they weren't, Giles still stacked up pretty well.

 

 

Of course they looked at other things.  I'm sure they used what ever analytical tools available to them as well as subjective evaluations from people like Charlie Manuel

People have acted over the years like the Tribe knew it was trading a future all-star.
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