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Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF

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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:09 AM

Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


As some of you may recall, last year, I started a thread, "All-Time Tribe Team." I posted my roster and many others responded with their own version. This year, I have an idea for a similar thread, but with different rules:


I'll post a poll weekly asking for your vote of who you'd like to see on your all-time Tribe team. The leading vote-getter in each category will win his respective role on the team. 


Here's how the roster will be compiled: Players that have already been voted in are in italics

Starters:

Sandy Alomar
1B Jim Thome
2B Nap Lajoie
3B Al Rosen
SS Lou Boudreau
LF
CF
RF Manny Ramirez
DH

- Note: The DH can be anybody, not just an exclusive DH. However, maybe keep in mind that some players don't hit as well without the rhythm of playing the field.

Bench:
4OF
C
IF

Starting Rotation:
SP1 Bob Feller
SP2
SP3
SP4
SP5

BullPen:
LHP
LHP
RHP
RHP
P
SU
CL

- Note: The criteria for the pitching staff is as follows: 
      - The starting pitchers can be anyone, regardless of dominant hand. So we could have five southpaws or a 3/2 split. No limit there.
      - As for the 'pen, the closer must have been a closer when he pitched, and the setup man can be anyone who was used predominantly in the bullpen. The other five members of the 'pen can be former starters or relievers. In other words, we could have both CC Sabathia and Raffy Betancourt in the pen. But CC could not be the SU or CL.


That puts us at a 24-player roster. The 25th will be your choice of position player or pitcher, and will be voted upon last.


Criteria for Voting
A player will be judged based solely on what he did for the tribe. So, even though Eddie Murray hit 500+ career HRs, he only hit 50 for the Tribe, thus not a great candidate for a spot. On the other hand, a guy like Mel Harder gets bonus points for his longevity with Cleveland.
Also, feel free to write in a vote if your guy isn't an option.


Let me know what you think! I'll try to post a poll once every five days or so, give us a way to pass the time until opening day. When the last poll is completed, I'll post a composite list of the roster, and we could discuss lineups, matchups, etc.

(The above message will be re-posted in its entirety in every poll)



Manny finally takes the cake in RF.

The Tribe has a phenomenal history of center fielders. 

Grady will be included in the center field poll, probably not in left. Probably won't matter anyway.


    Who is your starting center fielder?

  1. Poll closed on 02/07/2013
  2. Earl Averill: 0 votes
  3. Albert Belle: 0 votes
  4. Rocky Colavito: 1 vote
  5. Larry Doby: 0 votes
  6. Elmer Flick: 0 votes
  7. Joe Jackson: 1 vote
  8. Charlie Jamieson: 0 votes
  9. Kenny Lofton: 6 votes
  10. Grady Sizemore: 0 votes
  11. Tris Speaker: 23 votes

Last edited 2/1/2013 1:19 PM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:29 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


I'll take Tris. OPS+ of 158 and a historically elite defensive player. Can anyone explain why he never got MVP votes with the Tribe? It's a common misconception that his best years were with the Sox. Really, it's pretty even, and he played here for two (essentially four) more seasons.


Anyway, the fact that Kenny Lofton really doesn't even deserve to be in this conversation is a testament to how strong our CF history is. Our CF history has to rank #1, even over the Stanks
Averill-Doby-Lofton-Speaker > Dimaggio-Mantle-Williams

Last edited 2/1/2013 12:31 AM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:37 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


Yeah those 11 years pretty much beat everything else minus Joe Jackson but he only played 6 with us. Tris it is!
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:38 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


IMHO this is a 3-man race between Averill, Speaker and Doby.  No disrespect intended for "Shoeless" Joe Jackson, but he only played here for 6 years while the above 3 played here for at least 10.  The above 3's career Cleveland stats:

Averill: .322/.399/.542/.940 with a 136 OPS+ and 54.2 WAR in 11 seasons
Tris Speaker: .354/.444/.520/.965 with a 158 OPS+ and 80.4 WAR in 10 seasons
Doby: .286/.389/.500/.889 with a 140 OPS+ and 47.5 WAR in 10 seasons

Even when you look at those 3, Tris Speaker clearly stands out from the other 2, so he gets my vote.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 12:58 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


^ I counted 11 years in CLE for Tris?
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:15 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 



mooseahoy wrote: ^ I counted 11 years in CLE for Tris?
Yeah you're right, Doby's the only one of the 3 who played just 10 years in Cleveland.

Last edited 2/1/2013 1:16 AM by BrianBell

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Posted: 2/1/2013 7:14 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


speaker.

i'd say dimaggio and mantle alone almost trumps speaker-averill-doby-lofton. then you have williams, combs, murcer.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 7:18 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


Didn't Manny win the vote for RF, not Colavito?

Last edited 2/1/2013 7:18 AM by indiansfan1234

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Posted: 2/1/2013 10:34 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


With all due respect to Messieurs Doby, Averill, and Lofton there is absolutely no question that the correct answer here is Tris Speaker.

I know that the guy did not play his entire career in Cleveland, but he has the 7th highest career WAR for a batter and the third highest for a CF. In just 11 years in Cleveland he posted a WAR of 80.3!!!!!!

The numbers are pretty staggering for his time in Cleveland.

wOBA 0.449
wRC+ 158

Miguel Cabrera posted a wRC+ of 166 this year and a wOBA of 0.417. The guy was essentially the equivalent to the best hitter in baseball today and while playing CF. Just a fantastic player.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:18 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 



indiansfan1234 wrote: Didn't Manny win the vote for RF, not Colavito?
Whoops, good catch. Fixed. Thanks
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:24 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote: With all due respect to Messieurs Doby, Averill, and Lofton there is absolutely no question that the correct answer here is Tris Speaker.

I know that the guy did not play his entire career in Cleveland, but he has the 7th highest career WAR for a batter and the third highest for a CF. In just 11 years in Cleveland he posted a WAR of 80.3!!!!!!

The numbers are pretty staggering for his time in Cleveland.

wOBA 0.449
wRC+ 158

Miguel Cabrera posted a wRC+ of 166 this year and a wOBA of 0.417. The guy was essentially the equivalent to the best hitter in baseball today and while playing CF. Just a fantastic player.
In addition: Speaker's defensive skills are legendary. 

Speaker

Last edited 2/1/2013 1:28 PM by AustinTribeFan

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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:32 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 



buddy34 wrote: speaker.

i'd say dimaggio and mantle alone almost trumps speaker-averill-doby-lofton. then you have williams, combs, murcer.
I disagree. I think Dimaggio was great, but not as much as he was made out to be. I'd put Tris above him on the list of CFs.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:32 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


Good point on the defense. As a point of reference, WAR credits him with ~ 9 wins on defense and Kenny Lofton is credited with ~ 14

That is purely for informational purposes. I have no idea what to make of it.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:37 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


dimaggio was great - certainly a top 5 alltime. speaker is a top 10, very close to dimaggio.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:45 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


I must say the idea of Albert Belle in center field is pretty funny..
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:48 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


I am sure Tris deserves it but going back so far is tough for me. I want to enter a write in vote for Kenny Lofton and why in the world is he not at least a candidate?
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Posted: 2/1/2013 1:53 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


I would have to say Speaker is better than Dimaggio.

There are guys like Julio Franco that compile stats because they play forever and there are guys that compile stats because they play forever and they are terrific ballplayers. Speaker's run of play that was by and large excellent lasted 19 full seasons. Dimaggio had 13, but to be fair he did miss 3 prime seasons for the war. Much like Speaker, he was also excellent for his entire career.

Their advanced metrics make them basically dopplegangers in terms of offensive value, and it could be reasonably assumed that DiMaggio would have accrued 20 wins during the war years that would bring his total to 110 for his career. Speaker posted a career WAR of 140. Even if DiMaggio had posted a WAR of 30 from 43-45, I would still say that the 20 wins accrued by Speaker in just three additional wins give him the nod.


The more interesting case would be between Mantle and Speaker. I would probably go with Mantle because his peak was so absurdly good (he eclipsed 11 wins three times and 12 wins twice) but there is a case to be made that Speaker's unbelievable run of excellent play makes him better than any other CF ever but Cobb or Mays.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 2:04 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


i'd say the holy trinity is mays, mantle, cobb. i think dimaggio is fourth and speaker probably in the 5-7 range, but they're all so damn good they're almost interchangeable.
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Posted: 2/1/2013 2:05 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


What makes DiMaggio better than Speaker?
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Posted: 2/1/2013 2:08 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: CF 


For a CF I want really strong defense, including an arm, and I have never heard anyone rave about Cobb's D. 

My all-time CF for all of MLB is Willie.
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