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Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER

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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:10 PM

Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


In the words of Tom Hamilton, "How about that?" Rocky and Manny tied with 16 votes each for RF. So, we'll eliminate every other candidate and ask simply, Rock or Manny?


Also, I apologize for the thread congestion. If the mods want to fry any of these threads, please do.

    Rocky or Manny in RF?

  1. Poll closed on 01/31/2013
  2. Rocky Colavito: 18 votes
  3. Manny Ramirez: 21 votes

Last edited 1/24/2013 3:11 PM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 1/24/2013 3:31 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


manny

both played about 8 years for indians, manny had almost 400 more plate appearances. manny posted a 152 OPS+, rocky 137. rocky was better defensively, but not enough to make up that offensive gap.

Last edited 1/24/2013 3:43 PM by buddy34

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Posted: 1/24/2013 4:11 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


that is a tough one. I'm going with the Rock for his intangibles.... and for his rocket arm.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 4:39 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


Different eras. How would manny do with pitchers mound higher strike zone smaller and pitchers free to throw at you
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Posted: 1/24/2013 4:42 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


Has to be the Rock.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 4:44 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


OPS+ accounts for the different eras. both numbers are relative to their league at the time.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:22 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



jameseboy wrote: Different eras. How would manny do with pitchers mound higher strike zone smaller and pitchers free to throw at you

The "different eras" thing applies to this entire endeavor.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:45 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


Does OPS+ account for lineup protection, out of curiosity?
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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:53 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


stats people generally don't give a lot of credence to the notion of lineup protection. it's certainly been a very difficult concept to prove.

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Posted: 1/24/2013 8:05 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


I would think so, but I think it's at least worth a look.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 8:08 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


Manny in Cleveland
 OBP   SLG   OPS
.407   .592  .998

Rocky In Cleveland 
OBP   SLG    OPS
.361  .495    .856

Gotta go with Manny

Last edited 1/24/2013 8:10 PM by Dromag67

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Posted: 1/24/2013 8:47 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


Again it has to be The Rock ...

I really do not recall "THE CURSE OF MANNY RAMIREZ" ever being in print

The Rock was Cleveland
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Posted: 1/24/2013 8:51 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



LUPENEXPRESS wrote: Again it has to be The Rock ...

I really do not recall "THE CURSE OF MANNY RAMIREZ" ever being in print

The Rock was Cleveland
I could print out some papers about Manny cursing the 2007 Cleveland Indians if it makes him a better Indian All-Time RF.
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Posted: 1/25/2013 2:17 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


Team Manram
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Posted: 1/25/2013 6:15 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



Dromag67 wrote:
LUPENEXPRESS wrote: Again it has to be The Rock ...

I really do not recall "THE CURSE OF MANNY RAMIREZ" ever being in print

The Rock was Cleveland
I could print out some papers about Manny cursing the 2007 Cleveland Indians if it makes him a better Indian All-Time RF.
please tell me you have heard of the book and the heritage ... 

Bear in mind as well that colavito was traded and left begrudgingly ... he had no choice and of course manny bailed after our acceptance of him being manny being manny
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Posted: 1/25/2013 7:17 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



LUPENEXPRESS wrote:
Dromag67 wrote:
LUPENEXPRESS wrote: Again it has to be The Rock ...

I really do not recall "THE CURSE OF MANNY RAMIREZ" ever being in print

The Rock was Cleveland
I could print out some papers about Manny cursing the 2007 Cleveland Indians if it makes him a better Indian All-Time RF.
please tell me you have heard of the book and the heritage ... 

Bear in mind as well that colavito was traded and left begrudgingly ... he had no choice and of course manny bailed after our acceptance of him being manny being manny
My point is "does the heritage make him a better player though?"

Being in a notoriously bad trade that went against the Indians does not automatically qualify the player as All-Time caliber no matter how much he was fond of Cleveland.

Last edited 1/25/2013 7:21 PM by Dromag67

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Posted: 1/26/2013 7:31 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



Dromag67 wrote:
LUPENEXPRESS wrote:
Dromag67 wrote:
LUPENEXPRESS wrote: Again it has to be The Rock ...

I really do not recall "THE CURSE OF MANNY RAMIREZ" ever being in print

The Rock was Cleveland
I could print out some papers about Manny cursing the 2007 Cleveland Indians if it makes him a better Indian All-Time RF.
please tell me you have heard of the book and the heritage ... 

Bear in mind as well that colavito was traded and left begrudgingly ... he had no choice and of course manny bailed after our acceptance of him being manny being manny
My point is "does the heritage make him a better player though?"

Being in a notoriously bad trade that went against the Indians does not automatically qualify the player as All-Time caliber no matter how much he was fond of Cleveland.
We have the Flick factor in that none of us saw him play ... thus a lack of votes

Colavito was about more than heritage .... he could play the game - was responsive to the fans ,,, Rocky being Rocky was about quality not indifference

did you see him play the game or are you having a flick moment 

Manny was a hitter - my thought for DH perhaps but he was not our rf

perhaps with apologies to flick ... that was colavito
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Posted: 1/26/2013 5:31 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



LUPENEXPRESS wrote:
Dromag67 wrote:
LUPENEXPRESS wrote:
Dromag67 wrote:
LUPENEXPRESS wrote: Again it has to be The Rock ...

I really do not recall "THE CURSE OF MANNY RAMIREZ" ever being in print

The Rock was Cleveland
I could print out some papers about Manny cursing the 2007 Cleveland Indians if it makes him a better Indian All-Time RF.
please tell me you have heard of the book and the heritage ... 

Bear in mind as well that colavito was traded and left begrudgingly ... he had no choice and of course manny bailed after our acceptance of him being manny being manny
My point is "does the heritage make him a better player though?"

Being in a notoriously bad trade that went against the Indians does not automatically qualify the player as All-Time caliber no matter how much he was fond of Cleveland.
We have the Flick factor in that none of us saw him play ... thus a lack of votes

Colavito was about more than heritage .... he could play the game - was responsive to the fans ,,, Rocky being Rocky was about quality not indifference

did you see him play the game or are you having a flick moment 

Manny was a hitter - my thought for DH perhaps but he was not our rf

perhaps with apologies to flick ... that was colavito
I looked at all of their numbers and only went by that. 

The only effect I have is an unbiased opinion based on numerical evidence presented to me. I never met Ramirez, Colavito, or Flick. 

I haven't romanticized Manny Ramirez, I've only looked at the facts. Just as I did with Lou Boudreau for SS over Vizquel. If I was building an Indians team based on players past performances in our organization I would be building it on numbers. There's no way we can take "intangibles" into consideration for players born 100 years apart.

Elmer Flick
CLE PA 4020 OPS .792

Manny Ramirez
CLE PA 4095 OPS .998

Last edited 1/26/2013 5:33 PM by Dromag67

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Posted: 1/26/2013 6:34 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 



Dromag67 wrote:
Elmer Flick
CLE PA 4020 OPS .792

Manny Ramirez
CLE PA 4095 OPS .998

What I find bothersome about this comparison is it doesn't put into context neither how good these players were compared to other players of their era nor against players in other eras.

Flick played in the dead ball era.  Any stat that includes a power component will dramatically impact the advantage of a modern day player has over his dead ball counterpart.

One can get a feel for how a player ranks among his contemporaries by seeing where he ranked among the leaders in key stats.

One can compare players over eras by using adjusted stats.  While adjusted stats are a long ways from being perfect they do provide a better order of magnitude comparison than unadjusted stats.

For example, since you used OPS Ramirez has a lifetime OPS of .9960 putting him second on the all time list at 9th.  Flick at .8330 finishes 225th.

Does it make any kind of sense at all that Flick, one of the top hitters of his day, is by an OPS measure that much worse than Ramirez?

Ramirez's career OPS+ is 154 placing him in a tie for 26th place.  Flick's is 149 putting him in a tie for 36th.
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Posted: 1/26/2013 8:12 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: RF.. TIEBREAKER 


if OPS+ doesn't do it for anyone, try wRC+ from fangraphs. manny is at 153, flick at 144. again, close. but flick had a +30 for fielding and +16.4 for baserunning for 58.2 WAR. manny's fielding is -157.2, baserunning -31.8 and WAR 69.6
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