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Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP

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Posted: 1/23/2013 2:18 PM

Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


As some of you may recall, last year, I started a thread, "All-Time Tribe Team." I posted my roster and many others responded with their own version. This year, I have an idea for a similar thread, but with different rules:


I'll post a poll weekly asking for your vote of who you'd like to see on your all-time Tribe team. The leading vote-getter in each category will win his respective role on the team. 


Here's how the roster will be compiled: Players that have already been voted in are in italics

Starters:

Sandy Alomar
1B Jim Thome
2B Nap Lajoie
3B Al Rosen
SS Lou Boudreau
LF
CF
RF 
DH

- Note: The DH can be anybody, not just an exclusive DH. However, maybe keep in mind that some players don't hit as well without the rhythm of playing the field.

Bench:
4OF
C
IF

Starting Rotation:
SP1
SP2
SP3
SP4
SP5

BullPen:
LHP
LHP
RHP
RHP
P
SU
CL

- Note: The criteria for the pitching staff is as follows: 
      - The starting pitchers can be anyone, regardless of dominant hand. So we could have five southpaws or a 3/2 split. No limit there.
      - As for the 'pen, the closer must have been a closer when he pitched, and the setup man can be anyone who was used predominantly in the bullpen. The other five members of the 'pen can be former starters or relievers. In other words, we could have both CC Sabathia and Raffy Betancourt in the pen. But CC could not be the SU or CL.


That puts us at a 24-player roster. The 25th will be your choice of position player or pitcher, and will be voted upon last.


Criteria for Voting
A player will be judged based solely on what he did for the tribe. So, even though Eddie Murray hit 500+ career HRs, he only hit 50 for the Tribe, thus not a great candidate for a spot. On the other hand, a guy like Mel Harder gets bonus points for his longevity with Cleveland.
Also, feel free to write in a vote if your guy isn't an option.


Let me know what you think! I'll try to post a poll once every five days or so, give us a way to pass the time until opening day. When the last poll is completed, I'll post a composite list of the roster, and we could discuss lineups, matchups, etc.

(The above message will be re-posted in its entirety in every poll)



Don't want to jump the gun on calling the RF vote, so we'll get the pitching staff rolling for now.

We'll pick our ace in this poll, also known as a formality to employ the real Rocket. Or maybe Joss will make a run. We'll see.

    Who is your ace?

  1. Poll closed on 01/30/2013
  2. Stan Coveleski: 0 votes
  3. Bob Feller: 23 votes
  4. Mel Harder: 0 votes
  5. Willis Hudlin: 0 votes
  6. Addie Joss: 3 votes
  7. Bob Lemon: 0 votes
  8. Sam McDowell: 1 vote
  9. Charles Nagy: 0 votes
  10. C.C. Sabathia: 0 votes
  11. Early Wynn: 0 votes

Last edited 1/26/2013 3:00 PM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 1/23/2013 2:25 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


Easiest selection of all.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 3:55 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


closer than you think. you have to go with feller because of his peaks and the sheer workload (3800-plus innings), but his ERA+ wasn't all that great (120) and nowhere close to the best on this list.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:11 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



buddy34 wrote: closer than you think. you have to go with feller because of his peaks and the sheer workload (3800-plus innings), but his ERA+ wasn't all that great (120) and nowhere close to the best on this list.
Who are the leaders? I can't find them.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:13 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


Left Cy off. My mistake. He'll be on the next one.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 4:43 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



mooseahoy wrote: Left Cy off. My mistake. He'll be on the next one.
No big deal, he only pitched here 3 years anyways.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:57 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


Mr. Feller no doubt about it.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 5:59 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


pitcher, ERA+, innings as indian:

joss, 142, 2300-some (died at age 31 of tubercular meningitis)
cy young, 138, 3353 IP (also pitched 3 years later for tribe, 500 IP, 107 ERA+)
coveleski, 129, 2502 IP
wes ferrell, 126, 1321 IP
feller, 120, 3800-plus IP
lemon, 119, 2850 IP
mcdowell, 119, 2109 IP
sabathia, 115, 1528 IP
harder, 113, 3400 IP
wynn, 107, 2286 IP
hudlin, 104, 2557IP
nagy, 101, 1942 IP
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Posted: 1/23/2013 6:13 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


Ah ok, didn't think of The Spiders as a part of the Indians franchise.
---------------------------------------------
--- buddy34 wrote:

pitcher, ERA+, innings as indian:

joss, 142, 2300-some (died at age 31 of tubercular meningitis)
cy young, 138, 3353 IP (also pitched 3 years later for tribe, 500 IP, 107 ERA+)
coveleski, 129, 2502 IP
wes ferrell, 126, 1321 IP
feller, 120, 3800-plus IP
lemon, 119, 2850 IP
mcdowell, 119, 2109 IP
sabathia, 115, 1528 IP
harder, 113, 3400 IP
wynn, 107, 2286 IP
hudlin, 104, 2557IP
nagy, 101, 1942 IP

---------------------------------------------

Last edited 1/23/2013 6:14 PM by Dromag67

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Posted: 1/23/2013 8:11 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


The problem with ERA+ especially in this case is that a guy like Joss played in an era where offenses simply sucked (as a matter of fact he played in what is normally called the Dead-ball era).  Take his 1908 season for example, arguably his best year.  He played in a league that for that year the "average" ERA was 2.39 and average team scored 3.44 runs per game.  In comparison, you take Feller's best season which IMO was 1940 and the league average ERA was almost 2 runs higher at 4.38 and the average team scored 4.97 runs per game.  In 1908 there were 116 HR's hit amongst the 8 teams in the AL; in 1940 there were 883 HR's hit amongst the 8 teams in the AL.  I can't help but think that if Feller had played in the same era as Joss or if Joss had played in the same era as Feller, that the numbers would even out.  Joss didn't have to face hitters with 30-40 HR power like Foxx, DiMaggio, and Greenburg whereas Feller didn't have the advantage of facing non-HR hitters.  Again JMO, but I think the ERA+ would even out if both guys played in the same era, either Feller's would have gone up dramatically playing in Joss' era or Joss' ERA+ would have gone up if he had played in Feller's era.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 8:31 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


+1 on all the below.
buddy34 wrote: pitcher, ERA+, innings as indian:

joss, 142, 2300-some (died at age 31 of tubercular meningitis)
cy young, 138, 3353 IP (also pitched 3 years later for tribe, 500 IP, 107 ERA+)
coveleski, 129, 2502 IP
wes ferrell, 126, 1321 IP
feller, 120, 3800-plus IP
lemon, 119, 2850 IP
mcdowell, 119, 2109 IP
sabathia, 115, 1528 IP
harder, 113, 3400 IP
wynn, 107, 2286 IP
hudlin, 104, 2557IP
nagy, 101, 1942 IP
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Posted: 1/23/2013 10:51 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



Dromag67 wrote: Ah ok, didn't think of The Spiders as a part of the Indians franchise.
---------------------------------------------
--- buddy34 wrote:

pitcher, ERA+, innings as indian:

joss, 142, 2300-some (died at age 31 of tubercular meningitis)
cy young, 138, 3353 IP (also pitched 3 years later for tribe, 500 IP, 107 ERA+)
coveleski, 129, 2502 IP
wes ferrell, 126, 1321 IP
feller, 120, 3800-plus IP
lemon, 119, 2850 IP
mcdowell, 119, 2109 IP
sabathia, 115, 1528 IP
harder, 113, 3400 IP
wynn, 107, 2286 IP
hudlin, 104, 2557IP
nagy, 101, 1942 IP

---------------------------------------------
Oh...are we counting the Spiders? Well in the that case Jesse Burkett for starting LF

After Feller, the choice between Young and Joss is really close
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:19 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



BrianBell wrote: The problem with ERA+ especially in this case is that a guy like Joss played in an era where offenses simply sucked (as a matter of fact he played in what is normally called the Dead-ball era).  Take his 1908 season for example, arguably his best year.  He played in a league that for that year the "average" ERA was 2.39 and average team scored 3.44 runs per game.  In comparison, you take Feller's best season which IMO was 1940 and the league average ERA was almost 2 runs higher at 4.38 and the average team scored 4.97 runs per game.  In 1908 there were 116 HR's hit amongst the 8 teams in the AL; in 1940 there were 883 HR's hit amongst the 8 teams in the AL.  I can't help but think that if Feller had played in the same era as Joss or if Joss had played in the same era as Feller, that the numbers would even out.  Joss didn't have to face hitters with 30-40 HR power like Foxx, DiMaggio, and Greenburg whereas Feller didn't have the advantage of facing non-HR hitters.  Again JMO, but I think the ERA+ would even out if both guys played in the same era, either Feller's would have gone up dramatically playing in Joss' era or Joss' ERA+ would have gone up if he had played in Feller's era.
You are making it too complicated. The point of ERA+ is to alleviate the problems you suggest. Since Joss played against worse offenses, he had to post a much lower ERA. I am not sure why you think this works against him.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:26 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



buddy34 wrote: closer than you think. you have to go with feller because of his peaks and the sheer workload (3800-plus innings), but his ERA+ wasn't all that great (120) and nowhere close to the best on this list.
Feller pitched well past his prime. The innings you note definitely worked against his effectiveness in later years.

He also missed out on the war years, when he almost certainly would have been completely dominant. His WAR between 1939 and 1941 was 23.9 In 1946 it was 10.7.
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Posted: 1/23/2013 11:41 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


I was sorry not seeing Herb Score on the list. I would have had to consider him even though I know Feller is the right choice.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 12:59 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
BrianBell wrote: The problem with ERA+ especially in this case is that a guy like Joss played in an era where offenses simply sucked (as a matter of fact he played in what is normally called the Dead-ball era).  Take his 1908 season for example, arguably his best year.  He played in a league that for that year the "average" ERA was 2.39 and average team scored 3.44 runs per game.  In comparison, you take Feller's best season which IMO was 1940 and the league average ERA was almost 2 runs higher at 4.38 and the average team scored 4.97 runs per game.  In 1908 there were 116 HR's hit amongst the 8 teams in the AL; in 1940 there were 883 HR's hit amongst the 8 teams in the AL.  I can't help but think that if Feller had played in the same era as Joss or if Joss had played in the same era as Feller, that the numbers would even out.  Joss didn't have to face hitters with 30-40 HR power like Foxx, DiMaggio, and Greenburg whereas Feller didn't have the advantage of facing non-HR hitters.  Again JMO, but I think the ERA+ would even out if both guys played in the same era, either Feller's would have gone up dramatically playing in Joss' era or Joss' ERA+ would have gone up if he had played in Feller's era.
You are making it too complicated. The point of ERA+ is to alleviate the problems you suggest. Since Joss played against worse offenses, he had to post a much lower ERA. I am not sure why you think this works against him.
I'm sorry, but I find it hard to believe that Joss would have posted an ERA+ of 206 in 1940 like he did in 1908.  It was still 2 totally different eras of the game.  His ERA+ may state that, but I have doubts about it.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 1:26 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



jameseboy wrote: I was sorry not seeing Herb Score on the list. I would have had to consider him even though I know Feller is the right choice.
Feel free to write him in. 

I left Herbie off because he was so short lived. But, he was (and is) such an icon that I might adjust the next poll.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 1:29 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



Seiks wrote: 
Oh...are we counting the Spiders? Well in the that case Jesse Burkett for starting LF

Wow, forgot about him.

Poll within a poll, just to gauge interest.. Should we count Spiders players?

Last edited 1/24/2013 1:29 AM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 1/24/2013 5:30 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 



mooseahoy wrote:
Seiks wrote: 
Oh...are we counting the Spiders? Well in the that case Jesse Burkett for starting LF

Wow, forgot about him.

Poll within a poll, just to gauge interest.. Should we count Spiders players?
Nah the organization sees itself as 1901 and on, I wouldn't personally count the Spiders as part of the organization if the organization itself doesn't.
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Posted: 1/24/2013 10:29 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SP 


For me if it were extended to the top 20 I would go Luis Tiant / Gaylord Perry / Herb Score / Bert Blyleven / Rick Sutcliffe. I might even place Tiant just in front of Nagy.

Just imagine if Herb Score and Joss would have played a full careers.
jameseboy wrote: I was sorry not seeing Herb Score on the list. I would have had to consider him even though I know Feller is the right choice.
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