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Gossage on steroid users and HOF

Posted: 1/9/2013 10:03 PM

Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


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Posted: 1/10/2013 12:17 AM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


Bonds had HOF numbers before he started using steroids and was the one of if not the best player in baseball during that period. If you want to say that his decision to use steroids clouds Bonds's whole career, thats an argument that can be made.  Yet it would seem to relate more to a moral impulse to punish a rule breaker than point out a very real correlation between performance enhancing drugs and statistical achievement, something that Bonds definitely benefited from (at least according to legal standards) later in his career, but not before he amassed HOF numbers.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 12:48 AM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


Arguably Bonds is the best player ever and that's based on pre steroid numbers (or what we think is pre steroid) His HOF chances are marred by steroid use and being a general jerk which turned off a lot of the media folks, the ones who vote.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:13 AM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


I love it!!! Good for Goose for saying what alot of player's are thinking!!!
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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:55 AM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


the goose remains as sanctimonious as ever.

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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:15 AM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



Isn't it a question of opportunity? Wouldn't have Gossage and others possibly been involved with steroids if they were available? Has anyone been popped the question?
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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:27 AM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


They had pitchers of amphetamines in the clubhouse and there's a HoF who bragged about PEDs already.

hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...irtues-of-peds/

Also, there's such a thing as the CBA that needs to be considered.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 12:29 PM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 




---------------------------------------------
--- Frenchie1 wrote:


Isn't it a question of opportunity? Wouldn't have Gossage and others possibly been involved with steroids if they were available? Has anyone been popped the question?

---------------------------------------------

This is true, and the real reason PED should not be used.

I could care less about the purity of the game, but a human should not be put in the position of needing to do PED to compete.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 12:34 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


Tim Kurkjan made a very valid point yesterday morning before the results were released.  FWIW he said he DID vote for Bonds and Clemens.  He said something to the effect of while he doesn't condone the use of PED's to get an "edge" on the competition, players have been doing illegal things over the entire history of the game to get an "edge" over the competition.  Now he didn't go into details on that, but I'm sure there were things done say in the era of Ruth that would be considered illegal today.  And who's not to say that Gossage himself didn't do little subtle things to gain an "edge" on any given night against his opponent.  Whether it be putting a foreign substance on the ball or whatever.  Some players at better at hiding these things than others.

I'm most certainly not condoning the use of PED's, all I'm saying is that the concept of what they are used for is not much different than a pitcher doctoring up a ball or anything else that players do to give themselves a perceived "edge" over their opponent.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 12:53 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


the other point is that HOF players are generally those who were the best from their era, and among the best of all-time. whatever that era entailed, you still have the players who stood above others. and beyond that, no one can say with any certainty who didn't use.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 4:02 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


I still think the best solution is to make a wing for the time frame put a plaque on the wall saying steroid use jacked the records and put people from that era in there.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 5:41 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



BrianBell wrote: I'm most certainly not condoning the use of PED's, all I'm saying is that the concept of what they are used for is not much different than a pitcher doctoring up a ball or anything else that players do to give themselves a perceived "edge" over their opponent.
I respectfully disagree.

It's all cheating, but while amphetimines gave players energy to remain on the field, they didn't turn 30 HR players into 50, 60 or even 70 HR players. Roids gave them the ability to put up numbers way above what they could do without roids & for a lot longer into their careers.

Since players get into the HOF based on their numbers, I see why nobody got in.

Doctoring a ball is cheating as well, but that's a whole different scenario.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:43 PM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


Comparing using PEDs to doctoring a ball is a joke.

Gossage nailed it: anyone that used should not get in.  Anyone found to have used after getting in should be removed.

Some people just don't get what being accountable for your actions means anymore.

The second they allow a known user in(or to stay in), might as well allow those that gambled on the games they were playing in into the HOF.  That is how much of a joke it becomes at that point.

Last edited 1/10/2013 6:44 PM by Craplanta

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Posted: 1/10/2013 6:47 PM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



Frenchie1 wrote:
Isn't it a question of opportunity? Wouldn't have Gossage and others possibly been involved with steroids if they were available? Has anyone been popped the question?
No, its a question of if you used or didn't use.

Oh, and steroids were around then.  So it is a baseless argument to begin with.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 7:51 PM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



Craplanta wrote: 

Some people just don't get what being accountable for your actions means anymore.

And some people are unfamiliar with the punishment fitting the crime.


MLB had no real policy on this until the mid 2000's. They are extremely complicit in the use of PED.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 8:28 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


People really want to throw Hank Aaron and Willie Mays out of the HOF?
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Posted: 1/10/2013 10:18 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



WahooinAtlanta wrote:
BrianBell wrote: I'm most certainly not condoning the use of PED's, all I'm saying is that the concept of what they are used for is not much different than a pitcher doctoring up a ball or anything else that players do to give themselves a perceived "edge" over their opponent.
I respectfully disagree.

It's all cheating, but while amphetimines gave players energy to remain on the field, they didn't turn 30 HR players into 50, 60 or even 70 HR players. Roids gave them the ability to put up numbers way above what they could do without roids & for a lot longer into their careers.

Since players get into the HOF based on their numbers, I see why nobody got in.

Doctoring a ball is cheating as well, but that's a whole different scenario.
I respectfully disagree.  Cheating is cheating regardless.  I wonder how many players are in the HOF that used corked bats, but got away with it.  I wonder what amphetamines plus a corked bat would have done for a player?  I'd be willing to bet that there are more than a few guys in the HOF that cheated, but simply never got caught.  I wonder how many pitchers are in the HOF whom at some point or another used Vaseline on a ball.  Using a corked bat or Vaseline would directly impact a player's stats.  Not on the same level as someone who used PED's, but maybe enough to turn their great numbers in HOF worthy numbers.  And as I said who knows what was going on in the era of Ruth, could have been a lot of things going on then that would be highly illegal today. 

And let's also keep in mind that PED's have only been banned now for little over a decade.  How many players who retired in the 80's or 90's used them?  What if Nolan Ryan used PED's?  After all he pitched really well.  Look at his numbers from age 40 on: 3.33 ERA, 1.15 WHIP and was still striking out 10 men per 9 innings.  What about Cal Ripken Jr.?  He hit .340 at the age of 38, what's not to say he didn't use?  Wade Boggs was still a .300 hitter at the time he retired at the age of 41, what's to say that he didn't use?  There's a distinct possibility that all 3 of these guys could have used something to prolong their careers, but hey PED's weren't a banned substance and no testing was done for them.  Steroid testing didn't start until 2002 which would have been after these guys retired.  Steroid use was against the rules prior to that, BUT there was never any policing of it until 2002, so there is now real way to tell whom might already be in the HOF that used and they most certainly aren't going to come clean about it now.  All guys like Bonds and Clemens are guilty of is being relevant in an era where steroid use was policed.  If these guys had played in and retired in the late 90's they would already be in the HOF.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:22 PM

Re: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
Craplanta wrote: 

Some people just don't get what being accountable for your actions means anymore.

And some people are unfamiliar with the punishment fitting the crime.


MLB had no real policy on this until the mid 2000's. They are extremely complicit in the use of PED.
And some people believe in myths and pass them off as facts.

Since '71 the policy has been that personnel must comply with state and federal drug laws.  Federal law mandated that any steroids were illegal without a prescription.

Vincent('91) and Selig('97) both later spelled out in memorandums sent to all teams and the union specifically stating that steroids were not allowed without a valid prescription.  Both stating that any players using would risk being banned for life.

The Mitchel Report then went on to clarify yet again the actual policy, and specifically states the above policy has been in effect since '71.

Until the 2000's there wasn't testing.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:26 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 


I find it funny that a reliever with a career ERA+ of 126 (Joe Smith's is 132) is so happy to talk about who doesn't belong in the hall.
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Posted: 1/10/2013 11:31 PM

RE: Gossage on steroid users and HOF 



Lando12 wrote: I find it funny that a reliever with a career ERA+ of 126 (Joe Smith's is 132) is so happy to talk about who doesn't belong in the hall.
What's your ERA+ and what professional sport HOF are you a member of?  

I'm just curious of your qualifications to chime in, since apparently there are some according to you.rolleyes
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