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Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS

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Posted: 1/5/2013 5:16 PM

Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


As some of you may recall, last year, I started a thread, "All-Time Tribe Team." I posted my roster and many others responded with their own version. This year, I have an idea for a similar thread, but with different rules:


I'll post a poll weekly asking for your vote of who you'd like to see on your all-time Tribe team. The leading vote-getter in each category will win his respective role on the team. 


Here's how the roster will be compiled: Players that have already been voted in are in italics

Starters:

Sandy Alomar
1B Jim Thome
2B Nap Lajoie
3B Al Rosen
SS
LF
CF
RF 
DH

- Note: The DH can be anybody, not just an exclusive DH. However, maybe keep in mind that some players don't hit as well without the rhythm of playing the field.

Bench:
4OF
C
IF

Starting Rotation:
SP1
SP2
SP3
SP4
SP5

BullPen:
LHP
LHP
RHP
RHP
P
SU
CL

- Note: The criteria for the pitching staff is as follows: 
      - The starting pitchers can be anyone, regardless of dominant hand. So we could have five southpaws or a 3/2 split. No limit there.
      - As for the 'pen, the closer must have been a closer when he pitched, and the setup man can be anyone who was used predominantly in the bullpen. The other five members of the 'pen can be former starters or relievers. In other words, we could have both CC Sabathia and Raffy Betancourt in the pen. But CC could not be the SU or CL.


That puts us at a 24-player roster. The 25th will be your choice of position player or pitcher, and will be voted upon last.


Criteria for Voting
A player will be judged based solely on what he did for the tribe. So, even though Eddie Murray hit 500+ career HRs, he only hit 50 for the Tribe, thus not a great candidate for a spot. On the other hand, a guy like Mel Harder gets bonus points for his longevity with Cleveland.
Also, feel free to write in a vote if your guy isn't an option.


Let me know what you think! I'll try to post a poll once every five days or so, give us a way to pass the time until opening day. When the last poll is completed, I'll post a composite list of the roster, and we could discuss lineups, matchups, etc.

(The above message will be re-posted in its entirety in every poll)


Rosen ran away with 3B to a larger extent than I expected. 
SS should be the most interesting position of all. One future and two current HOFers to choose from.

    Who is your starting shortstop?

  1. Poll closed on 01/12/2013
  2. Lou Boudreau: 21 votes
  3. Ray Chapman: 0 votes
  4. Julio Franco: 1 vote
  5. Woodie Held: 0 votes
  6. Joe Sewell: 3 votes
  7. Terry Turner: 0 votes
  8. Omar Vizquel: 16 votes
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Posted: 1/5/2013 5:34 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Alright this is the first actual decision to make...both Sewell and Boudreau are ahead of Omar imo so it comes down between these two.

Sewell had 1800 hits in 11 years with the Indians 
Boudreau had 1736 hits in 12 years with the Indians

Sewell had 375 Doubles, 63 Triples and 30 HRs with the Indians
Boudreau had 367 Doubles 65, triples and 63 HRs with the Indians

The stats are close so for me it comes down to this, Sewell had an average almost 20 points higher than Boudreau, averaged more hits per year and had 99 strikeouts his entire Indians career including only striking out 4 times in 671 plate appearence and 3 times in 414 appearence his last 2 years in Cleveland

Sewell barely eeks out Boudreau imo

Last edited 1/5/2013 5:37 PM by Seiks

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Posted: 1/5/2013 5:56 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


I'll take Lou Boudreau.  His one MVP award (which for a SS is a true rarity) and 8 top 10 finishes in the MVP award voting narrowly put him ahead of Sewell.
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Posted: 1/5/2013 6:38 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Lou no doubt about it.
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Posted: 1/5/2013 8:19 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 



Yea, gotta be lou
---------------------------------------------
--- Cavsfan70 wrote:

Lou no doubt about it.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 1/5/2013 8:43 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Went with Lou. He can manage the team, too!
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Posted: 1/5/2013 10:16 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Yeah, have to go with Lou. Once again we have different eras except this time it's three instead of two. Manager of the last tribe team to win a world series and still played SS.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 12:55 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


This one is interesting to me. Joe put up better numbers at the plate (with the Tribe)

Lou ran a .296.382.416.798
Joe ran a .320.398.425.823


Neither was a base-stealer.

Lou stole 52 bases, was caught 50 times.
Joe stole 71 bases, was caught 67 times.


I'm not a fan of dWAR at all, but for what it's worth:

Lou: 22.7
Joe: 8.1

Overall WAR

Lou: 57.9
Joe: 49.2


Overall, the statistics pretty much even out. So, the deciding factors for me are awards, prestige, and wins, baby. Joe played sparingly on the '20 champ team. Lou was the MAN on the '48 winner (A.L. MVP that season).


It's hard for me to compare Omar to these two because the impact he had on the game and the era he played in were so much different. But to me, he's right there with them. Arguably the best defensive SS ever, an automatic GG winner, and much more of a base-stealer than either of the two (279/95-SB/CS).


But in the end, as others have said, it's gotta be Lou. Few players have meant as much to this franchise as Boudreau, and he lead us to our last champ friggin 65 years ago.

Last edited 1/6/2013 12:57 AM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 1/6/2013 12:59 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


The Tribe has to have the richest SS history of any franchise, do they not?

(Don't tell that to the P.R. team)
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Posted: 1/6/2013 3:05 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


For that 1948 Playoff Game alone, the guts to throw a knuckleballer on the mound and then mash the ball the manner he did that afternoon...why, it has to be good ol' Lou...

The granddaughter of the guy who Bearden beat that day married my cousin...let's just say I don't bring that game up in jest at family gatherings.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 3:08 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Larry Brown...only because he visited me in the hospital.

Bread
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Posted: 1/6/2013 4:31 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 



Sewell played in the first live ball era. Offenses were really good in the Twenties, and his career wRC+ was 111. Boudreau's was 122. That is the career wRC+ for one Derek Jeter. Jeter is rightfully considered a top three or so SS of all time. His peak offensive seasons blow Sewell's away as well.


---------------------------------------------
--- mooseahoy wrote:

This one is interesting to me. Joe put up better numbers at the plate (with the Tribe)

Lou ran a .296.382.416.798
Joe ran a .320.398.425.823


Neither was a base-stealer.

Lou stole 52 bases, was caught 50 times.
Joe stole 71 bases, was caught 67 times.


I'm not a fan of dWAR at all, but for what it's worth:

Lou: 22.7
Joe: 8.1

Overall WAR

Lou: 57.9
Joe: 49.2


Overall, the statistics pretty much even out. So, the deciding factors for me are awards, prestige, and wins, baby. Joe played sparingly on the '20 champ team. Lou was the MAN on the '48 winner (A.L. MVP that season).


It's hard for me to compare Omar to these two because the impact he had on the game and the era he played in were so much different. But to me, he's right there with them. Arguably the best defensive SS ever, an automatic GG winner, and much more of a base-stealer than either of the two (279/95-SB/CS).


But in the end, as others have said, it's gotta be Lou. Few players have meant as much to this franchise as Boudreau, and he lead us to our last champ friggin 65 years ago.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 1/6/2013 8:47 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


comparing counting stats from different eras could lead to illogical conclusions.

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Posted: 1/6/2013 12:03 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Omar
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Posted: 1/6/2013 2:04 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 




---------------------------------------------
--- mooseahoy wrote:

The Tribe has to have the richest SS history of any franchise, do they not?

(Don't tell that to the P.R. team)

---------------------------------------------

No, Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan and whoever else has ever played SS for the Pirates. Vaughan is probably the most undervalued player of all time.There is a strong argument that he is the second best SS ever and he did not even get voted in to the Hall by the writers, though he did by the Veteran,s committee over 30 years after his death.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 2:36 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:
Sewell played in the first live ball era. Offenses were really good in the Twenties, and his career wRC+ was 111. Boudreau's was 122. That is the career wRC+ for one Derek Jeter. Jeter is rightfully considered a top three or so SS of all time. His peak offensive seasons blow Sewell's away as well.


---------------------------------------------
--- mooseahoy wrote:

This one is interesting to me. Joe put up better numbers at the plate (with the Tribe)

Lou ran a .296.382.416.798
Joe ran a .320.398.425.823


Neither was a base-stealer.

Lou stole 52 bases, was caught 50 times.
Joe stole 71 bases, was caught 67 times.


I'm not a fan of dWAR at all, but for what it's worth:

Lou: 22.7
Joe: 8.1

Overall WAR

Lou: 57.9
Joe: 49.2


Overall, the statistics pretty much even out. So, the deciding factors for me are awards, prestige, and wins, baby. Joe played sparingly on the '20 champ team. Lou was the MAN on the '48 winner (A.L. MVP that season).


It's hard for me to compare Omar to these two because the impact he had on the game and the era he played in were so much different. But to me, he's right there with them. Arguably the best defensive SS ever, an automatic GG winner, and much more of a base-stealer than either of the two (279/95-SB/CS).


But in the end, as others have said, it's gotta be Lou. Few players have meant as much to this franchise as Boudreau, and he lead us to our last champ friggin 65 years ago.

---------------------------------------------
Ehhh whoever considers Jeter a top-3 SS of all-time might need an intervention. (No offense)

But I'm not as well-versed in sabermetrics as many on here. To be quite honest I have no idea what wRC+ is. 

Either way, I was using the numbers as a point of reference. I voted Lou, but Sewell impressed me.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 2:40 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 



MrBananaGrabber85 wrote:

---------------------------------------------
--- mooseahoy wrote:

The Tribe has to have the richest SS history of any franchise, do they not?

(Don't tell that to the P.R. team)

---------------------------------------------

No, Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughan and whoever else has ever played SS for the Pirates. Vaughan is probably the most undervalued player of all time.There is a strong argument that he is the second best SS ever and he did not even get voted in to the Hall by the writers, though he did by the Veteran,s committee over 30 years after his death.
True, and they had Dick Groat for the start of his prime too. I'd say it's a close call. I'm a bit skeptical of Vaughn as the second best SS ever, but history says he was a stud.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 3:09 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


What three SS are better than Jeter?

I think we all agree Wagner is greatest.
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Posted: 1/6/2013 4:19 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


Yeah, Wagner obviously. Over Jeter, give me Yount (if he counts), Banks (if he counts), Ripken, Ozz, Appling, Lou, and maybe Vaughan and Cronin
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Posted: 1/16/2013 8:55 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: SS 


What happened to this thread ?
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