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Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B

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Posted: 1/2/2013 4:49 PM

Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


As some of you may recall, last year, I started a thread, "All-Time Tribe Team." I posted my roster and many others responded with their own version. This year, I have an idea for a similar thread, but with different rules:


I'll post a poll weekly asking for your vote of who you'd like to see on your all-time Tribe team. The leading vote-getter in each category will win his respective role on the team. 


Here's how the roster will be compiled: Players that have already been voted in are in italics

Starters:

C Sandy Alomar 
1B Jim Thome
2B Nap Lajoie
3B
SS
LF
CF
RF 
DH

- Note: The DH can be anybody, not just an exclusive DH. However, maybe keep in mind that some players don't hit as well without the rhythm of playing the field.

Bench:
4OF
C
IF

Starting Rotation:
SP1
SP2
SP3
SP4
SP5

BullPen:
LHP
LHP
RHP
RHP
P
SU
CL

- Note: The criteria for the pitching staff is as follows: 
      - The starting pitchers can be anyone, regardless of dominant hand. So we could have five southpaws or a 3/2 split. No limit there.
      - As for the 'pen, the closer must have been a closer when he pitched, and the setup man can be anyone who was used predominantly in the bullpen. The other five members of the 'pen can be former starters or relievers. In other words, we could have both CC Sabathia and Raffy Betancourt in the pen. But CC could not be the SU or CL.


That puts us at a 24-player roster. The 25th will be your choice of position player or pitcher, and will be voted upon last.


Criteria for Voting
A player will be judged based solely on what he did for the tribe. So, even though Eddie Murray hit 500+ career HRs, he only hit 50 for the Tribe, thus not a great candidate for a spot. On the other hand, a guy like Mel Harder gets bonus points for his longevity with Cleveland.
Also, feel free to write in a vote if your guy isn't an option.


Let me know what you think! I'll try to post a poll once every five days or so, give us a way to pass the time until opening day. When the last poll is completed, I'll post a composite list of the roster, and we could discuss lineups, matchups, etc.

(The above message will be re-posted in its entirety in every poll)


Lajoie wins easily last poll. 3B should provide very interesting competition. I've slacked and we're a bit behind here, so we'll try to do multiple positions within a few of the upcoming days.


    Who is your starting third-baseman?

  1. Poll closed on 01/09/2013
  2. Max Alvis: 0 votes
  3. Buddy Bell: 1 vote
  4. Casey Blake: 0 votes
  5. Bill Bradley: 0 votes
  6. Travis Fryman: 2 votes
  7. Larry Gardner: 0 votes
  8. TobyHarrah: 3 votes
  9. Brook Jacoby: 1 vote
  10. Ken Keltner: 2 votes
  11. Al Rosen: 23 votes

Last edited 1/2/2013 5:24 PM by mooseahoy

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Posted: 1/2/2013 4:49 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


I'm actually going to be a nerd and research this one. Nettles misses the cut but feel free to write him (or anyone) in.
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Posted: 1/2/2013 5:17 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


rosen
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Posted: 1/2/2013 6:42 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


solely on what he did for the tribe: rosen
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Posted: 1/2/2013 7:31 PM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


It was down to Rosen and Bell. I really liked Buddy as a player but as the all time best Indians 3rd. basemen there is only Al Rosen.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 12:16 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


Ole baloney nose himself...Al "Flip" Rosen.......even though I lived in Cleveland I had not heard the Flip nickname till I met an old black gentleman here in Memphis that played in the Negro Leagues and had played against him in the winter.  Looked it up and sure enough he was called Flip.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 3:03 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


Ken Keltner halted the Yankee Clipper.  Al Rosen was overrated and chose to become a Yankee.

Gimme Kenny.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 3:50 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 



WhoAzcue wrote: Ken Keltner halted the Yankee Clipper.  Al Rosen was overrated and chose to become a Yankee.

Gimme Kenny.
Became a Yankee? 

Al Rosen was an Indian his whole career, he retired an Indian. By 1956 back problems and leg injuries caught up with Rosen and he retired at just 32, had he stayed healthy he was a potential HOF. 

Casey Blake vs Ken Keltner 
                         avg    obp    slg    ops
Ken Keltner     -  .276 .338 .441 .778

Casey Blake    -  .268 .339 .448 .791

Al Rosen        -   .285 .384 .495 .879

Last edited 1/3/2013 3:52 AM by Dromag67

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Posted: 1/3/2013 5:15 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 



Dromag67 wrote:
WhoAzcue wrote: Ken Keltner halted the Yankee Clipper.  Al Rosen was overrated and chose to become a Yankee.

Gimme Kenny.
Became a Yankee? 

Al Rosen was an Indian his whole career, he retired an Indian. By 1956 back problems and leg injuries caught up with Rosen and he retired at just 32, had he stayed healthy he was a potential HOF. 

Casey Blake vs Ken Keltner 
                         avg    obp    slg    ops
Ken Keltner     -  .276 .338 .441 .778

Casey Blake    -  .268 .339 .448 .791

Al Rosen        -   .285 .384 .495 .879

Al went to work for The Boss, although he was eventually elbowed out by Billy Martin.

And please, no Keltner comparisons with Casey Blake.  Ken was a seven-time All Star and was in the Top 15 in MVP voting four times.  Even accounting for expansion, Casey Blake couldn't hold Ken's jockst...er...glove.  Check out what Kenny did in '48...it's enough to bring tears to your eyes...man, what a left side of the infield that was.

Rosen only had one year that was better than what Keltner did in '48, though Rosen had two other years that were close.  While I'll grant you that Rosen would win in the objective eyes of most, if you talk to old-timers who lived through both careers fully, more had a fonder memory of Keltner, so that's why he gets my vote.  I trust dear old Dad and his peers, sorry.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 10:42 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


Rosen retired at a very early age.  I believe had a problem with the GM, Greenberg, and decided to retire rather than play for him.

Neither Keltner nor Rosen are in the HOF.  You can make a case for Keltner; he was my second choice.    I beleive Keltner was a better all around third baseman.
WhoAzcue wrote:
Dromag67 wrote:
WhoAzcue wrote: Ken Keltner halted the Yankee Clipper.  Al Rosen was overrated and chose to become a Yankee.

Gimme Kenny.
Became a Yankee? 

Al Rosen was an Indian his whole career, he retired an Indian. By 1956 back problems and leg injuries caught up with Rosen and he retired at just 32, had he stayed healthy he was a potential HOF. 

Casey Blake vs Ken Keltner 
                         avg    obp    slg    ops
Ken Keltner     -  .276 .338 .441 .778

Casey Blake    -  .268 .339 .448 .791

Al Rosen        -   .285 .384 .495 .879

Al went to work for The Boss, although he was eventually elbowed out by Billy Martin.

And please, no Keltner comparisons with Casey Blake.  Ken was a seven-time All Star and was in the Top 15 in MVP voting four times.  Even accounting for expansion, Casey Blake couldn't hold Ken's jockst...er...glove.  Check out what Kenny did in '48...it's enough to bring tears to your eyes...man, what a left side of the infield that was.

Rosen only had one year that was better than what Keltner did in '48, though Rosen had two other years that were close.  While I'll grant you that Rosen would win in the objective eyes of most, if you talk to old-timers who lived through both careers fully, more had a fonder memory of Keltner, so that's why he gets my vote.  I trust dear old Dad and his peers, sorry.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 11:12 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


Rosen. His peak was absolutely terrific.

Ken Keltner had a really nice career, too.


Buddy Bell was better with the Rangers, though he was a good Indians player.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 11:18 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


Ken Keltner     -  .276 .338 .441 .778

Casey Blake    -  .268 .339 .448 .791

Al Rosen        -   .285 .384 .495 .879

-------------------

to be relevant, stats have to be put into context. baseball changes, and the meaning of the numbers change with it. that's why i like OPS+ as a quick and dirty comparison point that includes the context, though there are probably better numbers. career OPS+:

keltner 112
blake 107
rosen 137

one of his claims to fame is that he is used as a reference point on whether a player should be in the HOF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keltner_list

Last edited 1/6/2013 9:28 AM by buddy34

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Posted: 1/3/2013 11:23 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


Yeah, that is the reason for stats like OPS+ and wRC+ and stuff.

I don't like anything OPS based much because it weights OBP and SLG the same, but what the stat is showing here basically holds true by any measuring stick. Keltner posted a career wRC+ of 110 and Blake's is 106.


You could make a reasonable argument that Blake was as good of a "career" hitter as Keltner, but Keltner's best seasons absolutely blow Blake's best seasons away. Casey posted a wRC+ of 120 twice, and Keltner bested that three times. His best season was 145, and another was 136.
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Posted: 1/3/2013 11:41 AM

RE: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 3B 


We definitely underrate Blake; didn't mean to disparage him, but one of his prized assets was versatility, and I happen to think he was a much better outfielder than thirdbaseman. Keltner was pure at the hot corner; Blake, not so much.

Boudreau didn't have much range at short (think Peralta and subtract some)...Keltner may have actually made it possible that Boudreau could plausibly play the position.

Another thing the old-timers snort about is the idea that Brooks was a better thirdbaseman than Clete Boyer. All the guys I know hated the Yankees intensely, but think it's ridiculous that Clete isn't remembered as an equal defensively to the hallowed Brooks, if not better.

Last edited 1/3/2013 11:43 AM by WhoAzcue

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