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Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B

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Posted: 12/15/2012 4:08 PM

Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


As some of you may recall, last year, I started a thread, "All-Time Tribe Team." I posted my roster and many others responded with their own version. This year, I have an idea for a similar thread, but with different rules:


I'll post a poll weekly asking for your vote of who you'd like to see on your all-time Tribe team. The leading vote-getter in each category will win his respective role on the team. 


Here's how the roster will be compiled: Players that have already been voted in are in italics

Starters:

Sandy Alomar
1B
2B 
3B
SS
LF
CF
RF 
DH

- Note: The DH can be anybody, not just an exclusive DH. However, maybe keep in mind that some players don't hit as well without the rhythm of playing the field.

Bench:
4OF
C
IF

Starting Rotation:
SP1
SP2
SP3
SP4
SP5

BullPen:
LHP
LHP
RHP
RHP
P
SU
CL

- Note: The criteria for the pitching staff is as follows: 
      - The starting pitchers can be anyone, regardless of dominant hand. So we could have five southpaws or a 3/2 split. No limit there.
      - As for the 'pen, the closer must have been a closer when he pitched, and the setup man can be anyone who was used predominantly in the bullpen. The other five members of the 'pen can be former starters or relievers. In other words, we could have both CC Sabathia and Raffy Betancourt in the pen. But CC could not be the SU or CL.


That puts us at a 24-player roster. The 25th will be your choice of position player or pitcher, and will be voted upon last.


Criteria for Voting
A player will be judged based solely on what he did for the tribe. So, even though Eddie Murray hit 500+ career HRs, he only hit 50 for the Tribe, thus not a great candidate for a spot. On the other hand, a guy like Mel Harder gets bonus points for his longevity with Cleveland.
Also, feel free to write in a vote if your guy isn't an option.


Let me know what you think! I'll try to post a poll once every five days or so, give us a way to pass the time until opening day. When the last poll is completed, I'll post a composite list of the roster, and we could discuss lineups, matchups, etc.

(The above message will be re-posted in its entirety in every poll)


Last week, Sandy Alomar was voted in as the catcher. We'll take a peak at first-basemen this week.

    Who is your starting first-baseman?

  1. Poll closed on 12/22/2012
  2. Jim Thome: 19 votes
  3. Hal Trosky: 5 votes
  4. George Burns: 1 vote
  5. Luke Easter: 1 vote
  6. Lew Fonseca: 0 votes
  7. Mike Hargrove: 0 votes
  8. Pat Tabler: 0 votes
  9. Vic Power: 0 votes
  10. Andre Thornton: 1 vote
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Posted: 12/15/2012 4:45 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


Thome.  Kind of hard to argue against 612 HR and .956 career OPS.
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Posted: 12/15/2012 4:58 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


Kinda no contest here.  Thome is the team's all-time leader in HR's, 2nd in RBI, 1st in walks, 3rd in OPS.  None of the other candidates really come close to what Thome did.
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Posted: 12/15/2012 7:01 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



Craplanta wrote: Thome.  Kind of hard to argue against 612 HR and .956 career OPS.
I could be wrong but I think the idea isn't to choose the best players that played with the Tribe but the players that played best for the Tribe.
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Posted: 12/15/2012 7:04 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


Yeah its Thome......just cause this one is such a slam dunk runners up..Vic Wertz...Andre Thorton
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Posted: 12/15/2012 7:27 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



BrianBell wrote: Kinda no contest here.  Thome is the team's all-time leader in HR's, 2nd in RBI, 1st in walks, 3rd in OPS.  None of the other candidates really come close to what Thome did.
While Thome should get the nod it isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as you suggest.

Thome with the Tribe while playing first hit .282/.412/.586//998 while Trotsky hit 313/.379/.551/.930.

Trotsky was probably above average at 1st while Thome was below average.

They played in different eras.

BTW -- The Trotsky vote wasn't me.

Last edited 12/15/2012 7:35 PM by JenniferMarie

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Posted: 12/15/2012 8:28 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


You put Tabler[who i liked by the way] and omit Fred "Wingy Whitfield? I'm offended.

Bread
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Posted: 12/15/2012 8:42 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


No Garko?

or Broussard?
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Posted: 12/15/2012 9:42 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



JenniferMarie wrote:
BrianBell wrote: Kinda no contest here.  Thome is the team's all-time leader in HR's, 2nd in RBI, 1st in walks, 3rd in OPS.  None of the other candidates really come close to what Thome did.
While Thome should get the nod it isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as you suggest.

Thome with the Tribe while playing first hit .282/.412/.586//998 while Trotsky hit 313/.379/.551/.930.

Trotsky was probably above average at 1st while Thome was below average.

They played in different eras.

BTW -- The Trotsky vote wasn't me.

Sorry still think it's a slam dunk.  Thome hit over 100 more home runs than Trosky, got on base a lot more often and hit for a lot more power.  Trosky hit for a higher average and that was it.  Did you even look up Trosky's fielding numbers?  At best he was even with Thome defensively in terms of fielding percentage.  Trosky committed over 20 errors in a single season twice while Thome never committed more than 10 in any one season as a 1B.  While Trosky had a nice career, IMHO Thome is the clear cut choice and to me it's not all that close.

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Posted: 12/15/2012 9:43 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


I'm surprised that burns didn't get more votes, Yeah he didn't hit many homeruns, but the guy could hit the baseball...
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Posted: 12/15/2012 10:17 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



Dromag67 wrote: No Garko?

or Broussard?
I do wish I would have included the Broussard/Perez platoon.
Hingsight is 20-20noidea
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Posted: 12/15/2012 10:47 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



mooseahoy wrote:
Dromag67 wrote: No Garko?

or Broussard?
I do wish I would have included the Broussard/Perez platoon.
Hingsight is 20-20noidea
Gotta admit that platoon was pretty epic for the 3 months we did it.
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Posted: 12/15/2012 11:06 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



JenniferMarie wrote:
BrianBell wrote: Kinda no contest here.  Thome is the team's all-time leader in HR's, 2nd in RBI, 1st in walks, 3rd in OPS.  None of the other candidates really come close to what Thome did.
While Thome should get the nod it isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as you suggest.

Thome with the Tribe while playing first hit .282/.412/.586//998 while Trotsky hit 313/.379/.551/.930.

Trotsky was probably above average at 1st while Thome was below average.

They played in different eras.

BTW -- The Trotsky vote wasn't me.
I can't cast a vote for him because I have doubts that he would deliver more in the clutch- his failure to close the deal in defeating Stalinism led to his prime being way too short to vote him over Thome.  Prime vs. prime they are close, though.
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Posted: 12/15/2012 11:56 PM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


One vote for Fred Whitfield.
Mike
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:13 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



BrianBell wrote:
JenniferMarie wrote:
BrianBell wrote: Kinda no contest here.  Thome is the team's all-time leader in HR's, 2nd in RBI, 1st in walks, 3rd in OPS.  None of the other candidates really come close to what Thome did.
While Thome should get the nod it isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as you suggest.

Thome with the Tribe while playing first hit .282/.412/.586//998 while Trotsky hit 313/.379/.551/.930.

Trotsky was probably above average at 1st while Thome was below average.

They played in different eras.

BTW -- The Trotsky vote wasn't me.

Sorry still think it's a slam dunk.  Thome hit over 100 more home runs than Trosky, got on base a lot more often and hit for a lot more power.  Trosky hit for a higher average and that was it.  Did you even look up Trosky's fielding numbers?  At best he was even with Thome defensively in terms of fielding percentage.  Trosky committed over 20 errors in a single season twice while Thome never committed more than 10 in any one season as a 1B.  While Trosky had a nice career, IMHO Thome is the clear cut choice and to me it's not all that close.

Not at all a shocker that you didn't change your mind.

There is no issue that Thome had more power and the SLG% numbers I offered support that.

You assert that Thome hit more then  100 than Trosky to help establish your slam dunk.  Any reason you didn't mention Thome had more  than an additional 1400 ABs. 5805 to 4365)? Thome had a homer in every 17.2 ABs while Trotsky every 20.2 ABs

Thome did have an advantage in OBP because he walked so much more often than Trosky (1008 to 449) but Thome also whiffed much more frequently (1400 to 373).  And note that Thome struck out more than he walked while the reverse was true for Trosky.

Offensively the two played in different eras and while the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS between the two have sufficient separation to convince me Thome was the better hitter the difference in eras leads me to believe Thome's advantage is less than a slam dunk.

Of course I looked at both errors and fielding parentage.  You commit the same conceptual mistake with errors as you do homers.  To do a meaningful comparison of errors you need to consider number of chances.  I didn't do the math but I think Thome has the edge but Thome played in an era of much better infields, much larger first baseman gloves and balls being kept in play (instead of being tossed) longer.

I never saw Trosky play so I based my opinion that he was probably above average defensively based on his ranking 2nd or 3rd in fielding percentage most years.  Hmmm, how many years was Thome among the leaders?

I did see Thome play first and he was a below average fielder.  Even assuming I'm wrong about Trosky's defense he couldn't have been worse than Thome. 

OT -- Zona had amazing comebacks in both football and basketball today.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 4:12 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



breadman20 wrote: You put Tabler[who i liked by the way] and omit Fred "Wingy Whitfield? I'm offended.

Bread

Ain't that the truth...I'd vote for Whitfield just because he owned the Yankees.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 6:36 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 


trosky, thome a very close second
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Posted: 12/16/2012 11:59 AM

Re: Indians Ink All-Time Tribe Team: 1B 



JenniferMarie wrote:
BrianBell wrote:
JenniferMarie wrote:
BrianBell wrote: Kinda no contest here.  Thome is the team's all-time leader in HR's, 2nd in RBI, 1st in walks, 3rd in OPS.  None of the other candidates really come close to what Thome did.
While Thome should get the nod it isn't nearly as much a slam dunk as you suggest.

Thome with the Tribe while playing first hit .282/.412/.586//998 while Trotsky hit 313/.379/.551/.930.

Trotsky was probably above average at 1st while Thome was below average.

They played in different eras.

BTW -- The Trotsky vote wasn't me.

Sorry still think it's a slam dunk.  Thome hit over 100 more home runs than Trosky, got on base a lot more often and hit for a lot more power.  Trosky hit for a higher average and that was it.  Did you even look up Trosky's fielding numbers?  At best he was even with Thome defensively in terms of fielding percentage.  Trosky committed over 20 errors in a single season twice while Thome never committed more than 10 in any one season as a 1B.  While Trosky had a nice career, IMHO Thome is the clear cut choice and to me it's not all that close.

Not at all a shocker that you didn't change your mind.

There is no issue that Thome had more power and the SLG% numbers I offered support that.

You assert that Thome hit more then  100 than Trosky to help establish your slam dunk.  Any reason you didn't mention Thome had more  than an additional 1400 ABs. 5805 to 4365)? Thome had a homer in every 17.2 ABs while Trotsky every 20.2 ABs

Thome did have an advantage in OBP because he walked so much more often than Trosky (1008 to 449) but Thome also whiffed much more frequently (1400 to 373).  And note that Thome struck out more than he walked while the reverse was true for Trosky.

Offensively the two played in different eras and while the BA/OBP/SLG/OPS between the two have sufficient separation to convince me Thome was the better hitter the difference in eras leads me to believe Thome's advantage is less than a slam dunk.

Of course I looked at both errors and fielding parentage.  You commit the same conceptual mistake with errors as you do homers.  To do a meaningful comparison of errors you need to consider number of chances.  I didn't do the math but I think Thome has the edge but Thome played in an era of much better infields, much larger first baseman gloves and balls being kept in play (instead of being tossed) longer.

I never saw Trosky play so I based my opinion that he was probably above average defensively based on his ranking 2nd or 3rd in fielding percentage most years.  Hmmm, how many years was Thome among the leaders?

I did see Thome play first and he was a below average fielder.  Even assuming I'm wrong about Trosky's defense he couldn't have been worse than Thome. 

OT -- Zona had amazing comebacks in both football and basketball today.
Um I think your math is a bit off in the at-bat department:

Trosky 4,365 at-bats with the Indians
Thome 4,711 at-bats with the Indians

As an Indian Thome averaged 1 HR per 13.9 at-bats, Trosky one every 20.2.  To me that's a significant difference. 

And you completely discount the fact that Thome got on base A LOT more than Trosky by using Thome's strikeouts.  To me an out is an out regardless of how it comes and Trosky in his Indians career made 3,025 outs in 1,124 games (2.7 outs per game) while Thome made 3,402 in 1,399 games (2.4 outs per game).  Fact is Trosky on a per game basis made more outs than Thome did.  In other words over the course of a 162 game season, Thome made 49 fewer outs than Trosky would have, again to me that is significant.

As far as defense goes going by baseball-reference, Thome as a 1B had 6,793 chances in his 6 years at 1B, Trosky had 10,852 chances in what would amount to the equivalent of 8 years as a 1B (partial years in years 1 and 9 I combined into one whole season).  So yes Trosky had a lot more chances but still though Thome comitted just 51 errors in his 6 years as a 1B whereas Trosky comitted 104.  Even if the chances were equal, Thome in the same amount of chances Trosky had would have comitted just 81 errors, compared to Trosky's 104.  That's still pretty significant.  Now you can argue that Trosky maybe had better range and therefore got to more balls which would increase his chances for errors, but when compared to the league average in their eras, they were both right around league average:

Thome .994 career fielding percentage at 1B versus a league average of .993
Trosky .991 career fielding percentage at 1B versus a league average of .990

Both guys were .001 above the league average in their careers as a 1B, making them virtual equals.

So let's see we got a guy in Thome who only hits about .285, but commits fewer outs, get's on base more, hits for more power is virtually league average defensively versus a guy in Trosky who hits about .310, commits more outs, gets on base less, hits for less power and is also virtually league average defensively.  Really and truthfully the only thing Trosky has a significant advantage in is batting average; Thome has the edge in most other categories and is right in line with Trosky in the others.
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