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The Hall of Fame and Steroids

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Posted: 1/8/2013 3:50 PM

The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


Both Doc and Fay didn't vote this time because of the steroid issue.  They both have small pieces on it.  But this one of Heyman's is the best I've read so far.  Check it out.http://www.cbssports.com/colum...ers---this-time   Heyman's

My take, I wouldn't vote for a cheater.  If Rose is ineligible then come the hell on.  He didn't cheat, didn't give himself an unfair, illegal advantage.  That's my 2 cents.  If they were legal and mlb approved, then OK, but they were not.  So no HOF for them.  They all made millions anyway so poor guys will survive.  Lying to Congress?  Ain't no way that belongs in the HOF.  Let the bums hang out outside the Hall.......


Exercising my right not to vote  

I simply can’t do it. I put off mailing in my 2013 Hall of Fame ballot until today’s deadline. It will not be sent. I’d rather abstain than play judge and jury this year. The two most deserving players statistically of the 37 on the ballot are Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. Bonds was the [...]

Rosenthal:
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s...od-thing-010613

Last edited 1/8/2013 7:29 PM by cincykid

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Posted: 1/9/2013 6:31 PM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


No one elected to the Hall of Fame.  No cheaters allowed so far. 


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s...-of-2013-010913

Steroid-tainted stars Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Sammy Sosa were denied entry to baseball's Hall of Fame, with voters failing to elect any candidates for only the second time in four decades.

HOF voting results

Player Pct. Yrs. on ballot
Craig Biggio68.21
Jack Morris67.714
Jeff Bagwell59.63
Mike Piazza57.81
Tim Raines52.26
Lee Smith47.811
Curt Schilling38.81
Roger Clemens37.61
Barry Bonds36.21
Edgar Martinez35.94
Alan Trammell33.612
Larry Walker21.63
Fred McGriff20.74
Dale Murphy18.615
Mark McGwire16.97
Don Mattingly13.213
Sammy Sosa12.51
Rafael Palmiero8.83



BBWAA

A candidate must receive 75 percent of the vote from the voting members of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America in order to be inducted.

In totals announced Wednesday by the Hall and the BBWAA, Bonds, baseball’s only seven-time Most Valuable Player, received 36.2 percent of the vote. Clemens, the only seven-time Cy Young Award winner got 37.6 percent; Sammy Sosa received just 12.5 percent. They were appearing on the ballot for the first time and have up to 14 more years to make it to Cooperstown.

Bonds is the sport's season and career home run leader. Clemens is third in career strikeouts and ninth in wins.

''It is unimaginable that the best player to ever play the game would not be a unanimous first-ballot selection,'' said Jeff Borris of the Beverly Hills Sports Council, Bonds' longtime agent.

Craig Biggio, 20th on the career list with 3,060 hits, topped the 37 candidates with 68.2 percent of the 569 ballots, 39 shy of the 75 percent needed.

The voters also shunned first-time candidates Mike Piazza (57.8 percent) and Curt Schilling (38.8 percent).

Jack Morris led holdovers with 67.7 percent. He will make his final ballot appearance next year, when fellow pitchers Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine along with slugger Frank Thomas are eligible for the first time.

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Posted: 1/9/2013 10:47 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


Good.

Lets have 2014 include Maddux, Biggio, and maybe Morris. Let the cheaters suck eggs, among other things
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:33 AM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


Shocking how many of the MLB talking heads are angry because Clemons and Bonds are not being voted in.  Jim Bowden actually compares amphetamines and caffeine used by players in the past, to steroids.  Goose Gossage really laid into him when Bowden asked Goose if he had ever used amphetamines.  Yes, I did take them to stay awake in the bull pen, Jim.  But they are not the reason I threw 100 mph. 

Many of these same hypocrits who think steroids "saved the game after the players strike,"  do NOT want Pete on the ballot. -IDIOTS.  Also, a few of these guys have become so disrespectful on air, of any callers who have an opinion different than their own.
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Posted: 1/11/2013 7:36 AM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 



Theshadowman wrote: Shocking how many of the MLB talking heads are angry because Clemons and Bonds are not being voted in.  Jim Bowden actually compares amphetamines and caffeine used by players in the past, to steroids.  Goose Gossage really laid into him when Bowden asked Goose if he had ever used amphetamines.  Yes, I did take them to stay awake in the bull pen, Jim.  But they are not the reason I threw 100 mph. 

Many of these same hypocrits who think steroids "saved the game after the players strike,"  do NOT want Pete on the ballot. -IDIOTS.  Also, a few of these guys have become so disrespectful on air, of any callers who have an opinion different than their own.
LOL After reading the above, it occurs to me that I have become disrespectful of these talking heads.  Maybe I need to start listening to a little less of these guys, and a little more classical music.
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Posted: 1/11/2013 8:23 AM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


The idea of speed being a ped cracks me up, oooops no pun intended, but uhhh I know first hand that speed is a lot like caffine, it keeps you awake and focused.  How that is a ped I do not know.  It also decreases appetite so growing big heads and muscle is out.  Plus, it won't improve your physical abilities.  So the arguement on greenies or speed imo is just a lamo excuse, just bs.  Leave it to leatherpants to compare caffine to peds, what a ..............!  Insert whatever you choose.  And not concerned about disrespecting someone who touts that bs.
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Posted: 1/12/2013 12:31 PM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


The Morning Line, 1/10
01/10/13 at 9:10am by pdaugherty

ONLY BASEBALL IS CAPABLE of such extended, navel-gazing hand wringing. Day after day of somber discussion, about the voting process and what to do with the supposed steroid freaks.

Enough already.

There is nothing wrong with the voting process. I know lots of HOF voters. I dont know any who dont take it seriously. Who don’t study the candidates, who don’t know what they’re doing. Look, there are about 1,000 Heisman voters. Literally. There are about250 HOF voters. Is anyone screaming about how the Heisman is awarded? Half the 1,000 never go to a college game. What they know about J. Manziel, they get from watching TV. They make the HOF voters all look like Bill James.

The voting is not conducted in a court room. Constitutional protections do not apply. Voters are judge and jury, same as any other HOF electoral body. In other words, the fact that Bonds and Clemens were not convicted of PED use is irrelevant. It’s a debate, not a legal proceeding. The only guiding principle is the so-called “character clause.” If a voter feels a player has violated that clause, said voter is free to be swayed by that feeling, and vote his conscience.

There’s nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all.

Don’t  suggest that there should be some sort of Miscreants Wing. No matter the scarlet inference, those guys are still being rewarded, and that ain’t right. That says, “We have room for players who cheat the game.” Why would any Hall of Fame want that? Might as well call it The Hall of Dubious Fame.

I listened to Buster Olney last night. He was ridiculous. Basically, Olney said he voted for Bonds, Clemens etc. because cheating was rampant in their era. That’s the old “everybody’s doing it” argument. If we suddenly had potential HOFers committing major crimes, would we excuse them on the grounds that they played in a lawless time? If Buster has kids, I hope he doesn’t raise them employing the logic he uses to condone the Steroid-ists.

And, FWIW, if Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc. suddenly found religion and apologized, with the notion that contrition would be a HOF ticket, how genuine would  those apologies be?

So, no, the process isnt what’s messed up here. The players are messed up. And they should be treated as such.

Thus endeth the lesson.

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Posted: 1/12/2013 2:21 PM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


I will always remember the Reds Cubs game when Sosa hits a ground ball and the bat breaks apart with super balls flying out of his bat and bouncing all over the infield. LOL.

The talk about the HOF is all the baseball talk shows ever discuss now.  I realize its a slow time of the year, but they are so disgusted with Ken Rosenthal among others, and want the whole voting process changed.  Their excuse for these guys is, "Everyone was doin it." They tried to get Johnny Bench to speak against the writers, and I heard only a part of his interview, but he told them that the vote of nobody getting in did not surprise him at all.  Tony Gwynn said, "No, I don't see how you can change the voting process now.  I got in the hall with the same criteria as all of those before me. Why should it change now?"
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Posted: 1/12/2013 5:38 PM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


^^^^  Yup shadow, I thanked all the anti cheaters crew on twitter, starting with Heyman.  Someone said, no need to change the process....the players are the ones needing a change.  I agree.  Thank God it is done like it is.  They were not all doing it and if you have eyes you could tell.  They all did not lie to congress and whoever either. And I still lol at saying speed is like roids.  One effects the brain the other the physical body.

super ball give away, lol.  Sosa did not do to well........ahhhhh.biggrin

Last edited 1/12/2013 5:44 PM by cincykid

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Posted: 1/13/2013 10:15 AM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


Kid, my sentiments precisely.
cincykid wrote: ^^^^  Yup shadow, I thanked all the anti cheaters crew on twitter, starting with Heyman.  Someone said, no need to change the process....the players are the ones needing a change.  I agree.  Thank God it is done like it is.  They were not all doing it and if you have eyes you could tell.  They all did not lie to congress and whoever either. And I still lol at saying speed is like roids.  One effects the brain the other the physical body.

super ball give away, lol.  Sosa did not do to well........ahhhhh.biggrin
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Posted: 1/13/2013 4:59 PM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


HOF is not a right, it's a privilege.  If you cheat, you lose that privilege
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Posted: 1/14/2013 9:55 AM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


This says it all from the players perspectives.

Andre Dawson: Don’t vote PED users in Hall

“The thing is, I played a long time in the majors (21 years), and a couple more in the minors, and I didn’t play with that many Hall of Fame-caliber ballplayers,” Dawson said. “I didn’t play against more than a few Hall of Famers.

“You don’t just suddenly have 20 or 30 Hall of Famers in both leagues at one time, but that’s what the numbers said. That’s what all the commentators said.

“You knew something was wrong when numbers were getting obliterated in a short period. That many great players don’t just show up like that. It just doesn’t happen. You don’t see 40 Hall of Famers show up out of nowhere in five years.”

...“I don’t let bitterness and anger weigh me down, but I won’t pretend it doesn’t offend me,” Dawson said. “I was talking to Frank Robinson about it last year, and he’s really angry about what’s been done to the history of the game.

“The guys who took steroids disrespected the game, and disrespected the history. Our history relies so much on the numbers, and the numbers have been destroyed.”

...“I’m mad about what they did to the game. I think of Hank (Aaron) and Willie and Mickey, it makes me really angry,” Dawson said. “We worked really, really hard to get to a certain level. They did it with drugs.

“I love the game, and I hate to see the stain on our game. It makes me sad, but I don’t think we can pretend it didn’t happen by voting all those guys in. That would be the ultimate stain.”

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Posted: 1/14/2013 7:49 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


The History of the Game matters (or used to) in baseball.

61, 60, *, 714, 755 -- those numbers all had real meaning. I bet everybody here over 35 knows these #'s like an anit-communist coded Lord's Prayer to our national pastime.

The steroid era robbed us of these. It became routine to obliterate decades old standards by over 15%, so what difference do the historical numbers make, except as relics?

Baseball history has (for me) had such a vivid existence simply because all the numbers stayed relevant. Nobody really recalls the top season and career stats for football and basketball, but the did for baseball.

And now I no longer recall the best seasons in baseball. I saw McGwire hit 70 (several in person) and I forgot that B*nds hit 73 (I thought it was 72, but i really did not and do not give a ****).

THAT is the legacy of the steroid cheats. We have a Ben Johnson/B*nds record in the 100, and we have the Maris/Aaron record. The fact that one exists at all makes me care too little about the real achievement, but that again is the crime, isn't it?
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:40 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 



BlackPeteIbold wrote:
THAT is the legacy of the steroid cheats. We have a Ben Johnson/B*nds record in the 100, and we have the Maris/Aaron record. The fact that one exists at all makes me care too little about the real achievement, but that again is the crime, isn't it?

Couldn't agree more. Throw in the idiotic voting process where a player becomes more "deserving" the longer he stays on the ballot and the Hall just doesn't mean much to me. I'm happy when a player I think is deserving makes it in, but for someone who loves baseball the way I (and most of us) do...the Hall just doesn't mean as much as it should.
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Posted: 1/14/2013 10:40 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


The ole dreaded *.  Very well said blackpeteibold, well said. 

Wonder what some of the HOFers from pre-roids could have done on that stuff? Nawww we don't.

Koufax, Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Rose, Bench, Morgan, Perez, Seaver, Drysdale, Gibson,  and all the rest of the HOF +.  Those are who I use as benchmarks.

Last edited 1/14/2013 10:42 PM by cincykid

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Posted: 1/15/2013 3:38 PM

Re: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


I got no problem with cheaters being denied.  I guess, that my problem is, and I don't know that there is any solution, that eventually someone will get in that cheated and didn't get caught and conversely, someone might be denied that was clean. 

There are a lot of borderline players that could have stayed clean and achieved induction in eras past, but since they were unfortunate enough to play in the "cheater era" they're accomplishments will be swept under the rug along with the monster numbers from the cheaters that are being excluded. 

Juan Gonzalez had some monster seasons and got hardly any votes at all.  I read somewhere that "he was a teammate of Jose Conseco" so does that mean he used?  Okay, perhaps he wasn't really borderline in a lot of books......What about his teammate Pudge Rodriguez?  The greatest catcher of his era and definitely Hall-worthy.  He was a teammate of Canseco too. 

How about Bagwell?  His teammate Biggio is generally considered "clean" because he didn't hit a lot of home runs.  However, have you noticed that a bunch of the players that get caught are pitchers?  They don't hit a lot of homers either.  I figure that if a bunch the cheaters getting caught are pitchers then a bunch of the cheaters not getting caught are probably pitchers too.  I think a misconception is that inflated HR totals are the only result of roids when there's a lot of evidence players used them to improve other facets of their game. 

Howabout ARod?  He's been busted.  Will voters remember that years from now when he finally hits the ballot? After getting busted he claimed it was just a one-time thing.  Who believes that? 

Personally I think Griffey Jr was clean, and he was outspoken against them.  Still, when it gets down to it, the only think we have is his word.  What happens when someone without Griffey's reputation says that he's clean too? 

How about that "experimenters" that didn't use more than a handful of times?  I don't know that Andy Pettitte would have made it anyway, but he did confess that he "tried them once".  There are going to be others that make this claim.  Perhaps most of them will be lying, but not all of them. 

I'm thinking Gary Sheffield was one that confessed to an isolated use of a cream and everyone kind of accepted it and it went away.  He's in the 500 HR club, is that enough to keep him out? 

When it gets down to it, voters will be casting and witholding a lot of votes based on their intuition which opens the door to a lot of error. 

We know from stats that the roid era was rampant with cheaters.  Ownership is as guilty as anyone.  You can't tell me they weren't aware what was going on for all those years.  It was easy for them to look the other way when inflated offensive stats increased their revenues.  When cheaters are allowed to continue with nothing being said, that silence sends a message that it is ok. 

Funny, I'm not a Conseco fan, but look at the repercussions from his book.  I remember when it was released everyone was jumping on his character and said he was attacking baseball because he wasn't allowed to play another season to break through 500 HR which at that time was like an "auto-entry" into the Hall. There were a lot of people in his book that denied everything and accused him of lying.  Now it appears that his story is a lot closer to the truth than most of those involved. 

Bonds and Clemens are probably the two biggest names and the writers have spoken, at least for this year, on their eligibility.  However, the can of worms has just been opened and there's going to be a lot of headaches for voters in the next few years.  I figure a bunch of them will just error on the side of caution and not vote when they are uncertain about external issues.  Again, that's just opening the door for some clean players to get screwed.

Check out news from the Reds development teams by clicking "Cincinnati Home" beneath the CincyHardball log above. 

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Posted: 1/15/2013 4:32 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


Juan Gon is not a Hall of Famer, regardless. He is a juiced up Dale Murphy, and he won't be getting in.

Pudge cheated his (little) ass off. He got huge, put up stats that make Bench look like a puzzy, and I hope he too never gets in. Then he quit and came back to the Nats looking like Tatoo from Fantasy Island -- "ze plane! ze plane!" Bagwell is a known guilty party, even if he never "tested positive" (see Armstrong, Lance for more on this phenomenon).


FWIW, those in and around the game know who did and who did not juice. Griffey did not juice, and that is according to those who did juice and those who did not. Griffey WILL get in the HoF first ballot. So will Greg Maddux next yr, and prob Tom Glavine.

Nobody (at least that I know) thinks of Gary Sheffield as a Hof'er. And again, thats the rub. These guys totally blew the constant benchmarks of success out fo the water so far that the line (500 hrs) is now meaningless. So you win some and lose some, cheaters. Yep, you got 500 hrs, but you also made that stat irrelevant. Reap it, bitches...
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Posted: 1/15/2013 9:33 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


^^^^^^^  Oh hell yes blackpeteIbold, almost made you post o the day down there.  The players know and thus the guys in the HOF know, baseball people know and the writers ....they know too, they have eyes and ears.  As long as they just vote using their heads and their knowledge, it'll stay relatively clean. 

Coke cola causes obesity, its the culprit.  omg  I thought it was a ped.  ridiculousness, absolutely.

I seem to recall conseco getting hit in the head with a fly ball hit has way in the reds series with A's, wasn't it him?

Ole fb might let a few in hu?  lmao.  Easy big fella just messing with you, pull ya in here,  we all know better.

Do they witness the sampling of players?  If so who?  They can afford some top Quality fake wizz.  Bet they could freeze their own clean blood too, good for 10 + years if stored around -80 C and with the right additive in the blood.  It would not be hard at all.  Blood banker here. Thaw remove the additive.......clean blood, how much ya need?  It would not surprise me if it's already been done.

Last edited 1/16/2013 8:47 AM by cincykid

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Posted: 1/16/2013 10:26 AM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 


Yesterday, a tape was played from a previous show on MLB with the Goose.  Casey Stearn and Jim Bowden asked, "What if a player's numbers were good enough before he started taking PEDs?'' DUh, Gossage answers, "And just how do you know when that was?  Also, why would Bond's numbers soar at an age when others are dwindling?" 

They were actually arguing that if a player was good enough to make it without steroids, then go ahead and vote em in even though they obviously took them. 

The first thing I thought when I saw  Clemons pick up a jagged piece of a broken bat that bounced his way and throw it at Mike Piazza as Pizza was running to 1b-- Roid Rage.
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Posted: 1/16/2013 11:29 PM

RE: The Hall of Fame and Steroids 



Theshadowman wrote: Yesterday, a tape was played from a previous show on MLB with the Goose.  Casey Stearn and Jim Bowden asked, "What if a player's numbers were good enough before he started taking PEDs?'' DUh, Gossage answers, "And just how do you know when that was?  Also, why would Bond's numbers soar at an age when others are dwindling?" 

They were actually arguing that if a player was good enough to make it without steroids, then go ahead and vote em in even though they obviously took them. 

The first thing I thought when I saw  Clemons pick up a jagged piece of a broken bat that bounced his way and throw it at Mike Piazza as Pizza was running to 1b-- Roid Rage.
I remember that roid rage o clemons' tossing the piece o bat.  Should have beaten his chest.
.....like the old saying goes, if you s....... no hold the phone on that one.  But, if you cheat you are therefore a cheater.  Is what it is.  Well they could create a wing .....only cheated a little?  lol.....


Think of Pedro Bourbon on roids, OMG!  Or some of the more colorful pitchers.  Damnation.....Gibson -  Brushback hell, whack.

Last edited 1/16/2013 11:37 PM by cincykid

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