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GREAT Scouting

  • RAMBLE
  • Franchise Player
  • 1744 posts this site

Posted: 10/13/2012 11:51 AM

GREAT Scouting 


How do the Cards get a guy like Rosenthal? Doesn't  look the part. But.  He throws 100 routinely. Amazing.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player...amp;level='ALL'
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Posted: 10/13/2012 12:47 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 


Their scouting and minor league development is second to none.  Hopefully, in time, Theo and the gang can do the same for the Cubs.
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  • RAMBLE
  • Franchise Player
  • 1744 posts this site

Posted: 10/13/2012 1:42 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 


He's a 21st Rd draft pick. How can a 100 mph arm go there???
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Posted: 10/13/2012 6:02 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



doughboy981 wrote: Their scouting and minor league development is second to none.  Hopefully, in time, Theo and the gang can do the same for the Cubs.
They are far from the best minor league system - What do you base your comment on ?

Baseball America's annual organization talent rankings evaluate the overall value of each system's prospect-eligible players (no more than 130 at-bats, 50 innings or 30 relief appearances in the major leagues, without regard to service time).
1. Texas Rangers
2. Kansas City Royals
3. San Diego Padres
4. Arizona Diamondbacks
5. Toronto Blue Jays
6. Seattle Mariners
7. Oakland Athletics
8. Tampa Bay Rays
9. Boston Red Sox
10. St. Louis Cardinals
11. Pittsburgh Pirates
12. Washington Nationals
13. New York Yankees
14. Chicago Cubs
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Posted: 10/13/2012 6:25 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



cubs2007 wrote:
doughboy981 wrote: Their scouting and minor league development is second to none.  Hopefully, in time, Theo and the gang can do the same for the Cubs.
They are far from the best minor league system - What do you base your comment on ?

Baseball America's annual organization talent rankings evaluate the overall value of each system's prospect-eligible players (no more than 130 at-bats, 50 innings or 30 relief appearances in the major leagues, without regard to service time).
1. Texas Rangers
2. Kansas City Royals
3. San Diego Padres
4. Arizona Diamondbacks
5. Toronto Blue Jays
6. Seattle Mariners
7. Oakland Athletics
8. Tampa Bay Rays
9. Boston Red Sox
10. St. Louis Cardinals
11. Pittsburgh Pirates
12. Washington Nationals
13. New York Yankees
14. Chicago Cubs


There is a pretty distinct difference betwen minor league rankings and actual development.  The former is a subjective snapshot.  The latter is reality.  St. Louis' system consistenly produces major league talent.
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Posted: 10/13/2012 6:27 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



SPOONER wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
doughboy981 wrote: Their scouting and minor league development is second to none.  Hopefully, in time, Theo and the gang can do the same for the Cubs.
They are far from the best minor league system - What do you base your comment on ?

Baseball America's annual organization talent rankings evaluate the overall value of each system's prospect-eligible players (no more than 130 at-bats, 50 innings or 30 relief appearances in the major leagues, without regard to service time).
1. Texas Rangers
2. Kansas City Royals
3. San Diego Padres
4. Arizona Diamondbacks
5. Toronto Blue Jays
6. Seattle Mariners
7. Oakland Athletics
8. Tampa Bay Rays
9. Boston Red Sox
10. St. Louis Cardinals
11. Pittsburgh Pirates
12. Washington Nationals
13. New York Yankees
14. Chicago Cubs


There is a pretty distinct difference betwen minor league rankings and actual development.  The former is a subjective snapshot.  The latter is reality.  St. Louis' system consistenly produces major league talent.
Reality says they are not the best at producing major league talent
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Posted: 10/13/2012 6:43 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



cubs2007 wrote:
SPOONER wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
doughboy981 wrote: Their scouting and minor league development is second to none.  Hopefully, in time, Theo and the gang can do the same for the Cubs.
They are far from the best minor league system - What do you base your comment on ?

Baseball America's annual organization talent rankings evaluate the overall value of each system's prospect-eligible players (no more than 130 at-bats, 50 innings or 30 relief appearances in the major leagues, without regard to service time).
1. Texas Rangers
2. Kansas City Royals
3. San Diego Padres
4. Arizona Diamondbacks
5. Toronto Blue Jays
6. Seattle Mariners
7. Oakland Athletics
8. Tampa Bay Rays
9. Boston Red Sox
10. St. Louis Cardinals
11. Pittsburgh Pirates
12. Washington Nationals
13. New York Yankees
14. Chicago Cubs


There is a pretty distinct difference betwen minor league rankings and actual development.  The former is a subjective snapshot.  The latter is reality.  St. Louis' system consistenly produces major league talent.
Reality says they are not the best at producing major league talent
So now you're a believer in minor league rankings above anything else.  Look at how the Cardinals have developed players from their system to contribute at the ML level.  John Jay, Allen Craig, Descalso, and plenty of pitching.  Those types of players have them poised to possibly win their 2nd straight WS, that makes them second to none regardless of some prospect rankings.
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Posted: 10/13/2012 6:55 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



cubs2007 wrote:
doughboy981 wrote: Their scouting and minor league development is second to none.  Hopefully, in time, Theo and the gang can do the same for the Cubs.
They are far from the best minor league system - What do you base your comment on ?

Baseball America's annual organization talent rankings evaluate the overall value of each system's prospect-eligible players (no more than 130 at-bats, 50 innings or 30 relief appearances in the major leagues, without regard to service time).
1. Texas Rangers
2. Kansas City Royals
3. San Diego Padres
4. Arizona Diamondbacks
5. Toronto Blue Jays
6. Seattle Mariners
7. Oakland Athletics
8. Tampa Bay Rays
9. Boston Red Sox
10. St. Louis Cardinals
11. Pittsburgh Pirates
12. Washington Nationals
13. New York Yankees
14. Chicago Cubs
I think this is only a further testament to their abilities.  They have developed and cultivated talent from players that were not viewed highly more than any other team.  They consistently find contributors from lesser-known prospects.  Also helps keep their cost down. Their hole has been the inability to find elite talent the last few years (which could be argued in the case of Wainwright, Freese, and others).


Baez has "top-shelf bat speed," according to one National League scout who recently saw him play. "I haven't seen that type of bat speed this year outside of the big leagues. It's pure, unadulterated, just violent bat-speed."

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Posted: 10/13/2012 7:31 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



doughboy981 wrote:
So now you're a believer in minor league rankings above anything else.  Look at how the Cardinals have developed players from their system to contribute at the ML level.  John Jay, Allen Craig, Descalso, and plenty of pitching.  Those types of players have them poised to possibly win their 2nd straight WS, that makes them second to none regardless of some prospect rankings.
Again they are not second to none when producing and developing major league talent.

Why don't you share facts that backup your statement ?
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Posted: 10/13/2012 7:50 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



cubs2007 wrote:
doughboy981 wrote:
So now you're a believer in minor league rankings above anything else.  Look at how the Cardinals have developed players from their system to contribute at the ML level.  John Jay, Allen Craig, Descalso, and plenty of pitching.  Those types of players have them poised to possibly win their 2nd straight WS, that makes them second to none regardless of some prospect rankings.
Again they are not second to none when producing and developing major league talent.

Why don't you share facts that backup your statement ?

coming up on back-to-back WS led by a bunch of guys from their own system who actually contribute.  That's all that's needed to say, beats any rankings my friend.
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Posted: 10/13/2012 8:02 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



doughboy981 wrote:
Look at how the Cardinals have developed players from their system to contribute at the ML level.  John Jay, Allen Craig, Descalso, and plenty of pitching.  Those types of players have them poised to possibly win their 2nd straight WS, that makes them second to none regardless of some prospect rankings.

Jay, Craig and Descalso along with Kozma, Carpenter and Lynn never appeared on a top 100 prospects list.  Seems they don't become impact players until they reach the majors.  Maybe the great development happens when they get to St. Louis.

They do, however, have four players in the top 50 now.  So Theo and Co. have their work cut out for them.

Last edited 10/13/2012 8:03 PM by KatieCubFan

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Posted: 10/13/2012 8:18 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



RAMBLE wrote: How do the Cards get a guy like Rosenthal? Doesn't  look the part. But.  He throws 100 routinely. Amazing.

http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player...amp;level='ALL'

There's your answer.  They thought the same about Maddux, who was a different type of pitcher but didn't have a pitcher's frame.  Only the Cubs saw something in him.
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Posted: 10/14/2012 10:06 AM

Re: GREAT Scouting 


I don't know if they are "second to none" or not but they are pretty good. They won a World Series last year with a ton of home grown talent and they are in the NLCS this year with even more of it.

But I do know that if someone is making an argument for or against them being "second to none" developing major league talent, current minor league system rankings are irrelevant.
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Posted: 10/14/2012 10:51 AM

RE: GREAT Scouting 


It's an interesting discussion. They never seem to have top prospects, but they get contributions from homegrown players every single year. If you look at their recent list of first round draft picks, they haven't gotten much more value from them than the Cubs have, but no team is better at plugging in guys you've never heard of and getting production from them.
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Posted: 10/14/2012 2:21 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 


Forget the prospects list and look at the actual number of players developed and they are middle of the pack. They are a good organization but not the best in player development.

I'm sure everyone hopes the new front office can do better than Jay, Craig and Descalso as examples of what we should dtrive for. St Louis is not the organization that the Cubs have said they want to model themselves after. They are a well run organization that never had to lose a 100 games to stay a competitive in a small to mid size market.
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Posted: 10/14/2012 3:50 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 


Don't forget also that under the new CBA, the Cardinals and their $110 million payroll are eligible for the bonus draft pool which was set up for competitive balance.
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Posted: 10/14/2012 4:23 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



cubs2007 wrote:
I'm sure everyone hopes the new front office can do better than Jay, Craig and Descalso as examples of what we should dtrive for. St Louis is not the organization that the Cubs have said they want to model themselves after.
Exactly.  You can't use a model based on scrubs.  It's like when fans point to the 2006 Cardinals as a reason for hope when it comes to a flawed team winning it all.  Total aberration.  Why haven't teams like the Rays and Reds pulled it off?  They actually have had a steady stream of top prospects.  Is there something wrong with their scouting and development?  I don't think so.  The Cardinals have taken full advantage of the crapshoot.  They have won two division titles in the past seven years including one with 83 wins.  They could win their third World Series since 2006, yet in that span the most games they've won in a season was 91, one of only two times they reached the 90-win mark.  You have to feel for the Braves, who for years have had excellent scouting and player development.

Last edited 10/14/2012 6:29 PM by KatieCubFan

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Posted: 10/14/2012 11:40 PM

Re: GREAT Scouting 


Uhhhh...are you guys serious with these posts? Or am I missing something?

We don't want to produce Jon Jays or Allen Craigs?  Or heck, even a good glove clutch guy like Descalso? Really?

The Cards have won seven division titles in the past 13 seasons. They made the playoffs 2 other times.  They have made 7 trips to the NLCS, have made the series 3 times and won 2...so far. Their starting lineup and roster is full of home grown talent. Theo may not mention their organization by name but he would kill for even half that much success.

That is a shameful twisting of numbers, Katie. Only goin back 7 years which means you ignore their 4 division titles in the 5 years prior. It is really silly of you guys to pretend the organizational success of the Cardinals is just dumb luck.
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Posted: 10/15/2012 2:11 AM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



SPOONER wrote: That is a shameful twisting of numbers, Katie. Only goin back 7 years which means you ignore their 4 division titles in the 5 years prior. It is really silly of you guys to pretend the organizational success of the Cardinals is just dumb luck.

I used that 7 year span because that's when they won world titles.  Before that, even with 95-100 win teams, they failed to win their first since 1982.  How good they were prior to these 7 years has nothing to do with the fact that they're advancing past superior teams now.  I'm saying the postseason as it's currently structured is dumb luck, made worse by adding extra teams.

This year's World Series could very well feature two teams that tied for the 11th best record.  I find that laughable.  Two 88-win teams from baseball's two worst divisions going at it for the game's biggest prize while every team that won 90+ games (nine of them) sits on the sidelines.
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Posted: 10/15/2012 7:11 AM

Re: GREAT Scouting 



KatieCubFan wrote:
SPOONER wrote: That is a shameful twisting of numbers, Katie. Only goin back 7 years which means you ignore their 4 division titles in the 5 years prior. It is really silly of you guys to pretend the organizational success of the Cardinals is just dumb luck.

I used that 7 year span because that's when they won world titles.  Before that, even with 95-100 win teams, they failed to win their first since 1982.  How good they were prior to these 7 years has nothing to do with the fact that they're advancing past superior teams now.  I'm saying the postseason as it's currently structured is dumb luck, made worse by adding extra teams.

This year's World Series could very well feature two teams that tied for the 11th best record.  I find that laughable.  Two 88-win teams from baseball's two worst divisions going at it for the game's biggest prize while every team that won 90+ games (nine of them) sits on the sidelines.
This is true in every sport now though. The 9-7 Giants win the Super Bowl (as a Wild Card). The LA Kings win the Stanley Cup as an 8 seed. It's about great mental preparation and getting hot at the right time. Also.. it's hard to say that a 95 win team is that much better than an 88 win team if that 88 win team had major injuries during the course of the year. Bottom line.. all you have to do is get in.. and win. And that's what the Cardinals have done.
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