From reading posts on the board it seemd like a number of posters want Theriot at 2b.

I think he is much better at SS than most people think. His defensive metrics put him as an above average SS

Players like Tejada and Cabrerra rank well below average defensively for SS

He is our most consistent hitter and I would leave him at SS for a couple years -He has not played 2b in 3 years and his minor league career was split at SS and 2b - so he is not a natural 2b like people suggest.

I would also forget Starlin Castro for at least 1 year. He turns 20 early next year and has only played 30 games above A ball.

He made 39 errors at SS last year

He is at least 20 pounds under what he needs to be to play in the majors. He is a free swinger with no patience at the plate. Let him play at AA this year and learn the fundamentals before he gets to the majors.

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cubsfanforlife22 wrote:

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LMAO!! Couldn't agree more.

I say sell the farm for Hanley Ramirez....one can dream right?

he never makes the killer stop up the middle...never.

cubs2007 wrote:. Let him play at AA this year and learn the fundamentals before he gets to the majors.

What tells you the Cubs can teach the kid fundamentals.  Walks have not been a priority in the minors for decades.  That is why Colvin profiles as a 4th outfielder, Harvey never made it, Patterson flamed out after there was tape on him, Pie... well you get the idea.

I am not getting excited about Castro or Vitters until they can prove they can rise above the awful player development and figure out how to be a successful ballplayer on their own.

Ryan does a nice job at short for a 2B...

Sign Tejada and move Theriot to 2b.

lukerush wrote:

Sign Tejada and move Theriot to 2b

This does not improve the middle of the infield defense. Tejada was a very poor defensive SS last year. He would have cost the Cubs a couple games vs Theriot on defense alone. He will be 36 next year (maybe closer to 38 based on false birth certificate reports) and his defense is on the decline.

ILLINIrob83 wrote: That is why defensive metrics are still very flawed. Theriot makes the plays he should make but has zero range, horrible arm strength. He can't make the really nice play defensively. He is a nice player overall, but isn't a championship SS IMO. However, David Eckstein was on a couple of world series teams so I guess it is possible. I have gone back and forth on this, and would love to see a great defensive SS, or at least someone who can go in the hole....get the ball and throw someone out. Hopefully though if Theriot is the Cubs SS it is for only one more season because of Castro.

This is a balanced post.  Theriot is fine.  He makes the routine plays.  But, it's an area where the Cubs can improve.  Who else is out there that could improve the team by playing SS and moving Theriot to 2nd?  There doesn't seem like much.

BTW, he's a natural 2B.  And even if you claim he's not, the chances that a guy can play a solid short yet NOT play a good 2B are very slim.  Almost none.

Like others have said, there are a lot more options at 2b right now than SS.  Eventually, the goal is to have Theriot at 2b, but he will most likely remain at SS for 2010 and probably 2011.  The Cubs could sign a quality switch hitting OBP/SB guy or a right handed power guy at 2b right now helping upgrade this team.

Mordeci37 wrote:

 

cubs2007 wrote:. Let him play at AA this year and learn the fundamentals before he gets to the majors.

What tells you the Cubs can teach the kid fundamentals.  Walks have not been a priority in the minors for decades.  That is why Colvin profiles as a 4th outfielder, Harvey never made it, Patterson flamed out after there was tape on him, Pie... well you get the idea.

 

I am not getting excited about Castro or Vitters until they can prove they can rise above the awful player development and figure out how to be a successful ballplayer on their own.

Aren't you confusing hitting mechanics, and fielding mechanics?  The players in the middle infield who have come up have been pretty sound defensively.  There may be complaints about range, arm strength and quickness, but fielding fundamentals are okay.  Of those you mentioned, all were at least average in the field, with Patterson close to gold glove caliber.

Hitting fundamentals, knowledge of the strike zone, and selecting a pitch to hit and being able to hit that pitch can be an individual thing or may be helped by a compatible hitting instructor and/or experience with a mixture of failure and success.  Still, Cedeno, Soto, Hoffpauier, and Fox all had fabulous years at Iowa and at least some success in the bigs. 

You apparently, are concerned about walks and knowledge of the strike zone.  Mark Grace has consistently maintained that the strike zone cannot be taught, either you have it or you don't.   Gerald Perry wanted hitters to be

selective in what they wanted to hit and go after it.   Walks are not always an offensive weapon, sometimes the defense uses them.   And if you go to bat looking for a walk, what happens if you fall behind say 0 - 2?

According to your reasoning, Colvin profiles as a 4th outfielder because he doesn't walk enough?  Just out of curiousity didn't his walk total go up one year from  8 to 55?

IlliniRob wrote:

cubs2007 wrote:

 

Ozzie Smith is the best fielding SS I've ever seen play. He did not have a strong arm. Theriot has a good enough arm to make all the plays. There are only a handful of SS that have the canon arm. If you position yourself correctly you will be a positive fielder.

Ozzie was effortless fielding the ball and had a very quick release--and a stronger arm that you give him credit for, especially earlier in his career.  He could make plays in the hole.  Theroit can't.  He can't make all the plays.  He can make the routine ones and some fantastic force plays but that's about it.

He's fine as a SS.  But the team would be improved with a better one that can hit.  I just don't think there are many players available that fit that description.

cubs2007 wrote:

IlliniRob wrote:

That is why defensive metrics are still very flawed.

The defensive metrics show he gets to more balls than the average SS.

Theriot makes the plays he should make but has zero range, horrible arm strength.

Ozzie Smith is the best fielding SS I've ever seen play. He did not have a strong arm. Theriot has a good enough arm to make all the plays. There are only a handful of SS that have the canon arm. If you position yourself correctly you will be a positive fielder.

He can't make the really nice play defensively. He is a nice player overall, but isn't a championship SS IMO. However, David Eckstein was on a couple of world series teams so I guess it is possible. I have gone back and forth on this, and would love to see a great defensive SS, or at least someone who can go in the hole....get the ball and throw someone out. Hopefully though if Theriot is the Cubs SS it is for only one more season because of Castro.

Castro made 39 errors between A & AA last year. He turns 20 next spring. I would not push this prospect until he is ready for every day play. Even his teammates say he will need to add 20 pounds to his frame to add some strength and be able to drive the ball.

ugh I know you are not really comparing Ozzie and Theriot, but to even mention them in the same sentence in any kind of comparison should be against the rules.

Ah yes, the defensive metrics.  RzR, DER and OOZ the culprits that make people believe players like Threiot and Jeter are better fielders than Cabrera, Tulpwitxki and Rollins.

Heres the thing about defensive metrics, They are normalized by concentrating a positions created outs in the range where 50% of the batted balls are made into outs for that position.  In other words, for SS as an example, it would likely be in the normal position where all SS's make plays. Probably somwere 15 ft left of 2B and 25 ft right of 3B.  Those are the balls created into outs that are measured. That's why players like Theriot and Jeter can look good. They make the plays they are supposed to make at a frationally better rate than fielders with greater range.That is nowhere close to measuring what type of fielders they are.

Anyone that would argue Theriot to be a supperior SS to Tulowitzki, Rollins or even aging players like Orlado Cabrarra believes that those are theonly outs that each player makes and really doesn't understand the purpose of RZR. But in truth, nothing could be further from fact. What seperates better fireldes from average fielders is their ability to crate outs outside of that "zone" that is used in standerdized measurments. So the next time you see Theriot backhand a ball in short left field and gun down even a catcher, please notify me so I can put it down as a first.

Like someone else posted earlier, Theriot is a fine SS for a 2B. Just please stop using one years wortht of metrics in a field where those metrics are so incosistant to begin with (check and see how each season brings about a different group of top 10 fielders), to use as evidence.

MiltandZsSchoolofRock wrote:

Heres the thing about defensive metrics, They are normalized by concentrating a positions created outs in the range where 50% of the batted balls are made into outs for that position.  In other words, for SS as an example, it would likely be in the normal position where all SS's make plays. Probably somwere 15 ft left of 2B and 25 ft right of 3B.  Those are the balls created into outs that are measured. That's why players like Theriot and Jeter can look good. They make the plays they are supposed to make at a frationally better rate than fielders with greater range.That is nowhere close to measuring what type of fielders they are.

If you look at UZR which has been used the past 8 years - Derek Jeter has been a negative fielding SS in 7 out of 8 years. Theriot is far from the Cubs biggest need to upgrade.

cubs2007 wrote:

From reading posts on the board it seemd like a number of posters want Theriot at 2b.

 

I think he is much better at SS than most people think. His defensive metrics put him as an above average SS

Players like Tejada and Cabrerra rank well below average defensively for SS

He is our most consistent hitter and I would leave him at SS for a couple years -He has not played 2b in 3 years and his minor league career was split at SS and 2b - so he is not a natural 2b like people suggest.

 

I would also forget Starlin Castro for at least 1 year. He turns 20 early next year and has only played 30 games above A ball.

He made 39 errors at SS last year

He is at least 20 pounds under what he needs to be to play in the majors. He is a free swinger with no patience at the plate. Let him play at AA this year and learn the fundamentals before he gets to the majors.

Who are you..John Kerry? One moment you are arguing with everyone that we need to DEFINITELY need to upgrade at SS and myself/others were taking "the easy way" out since we realized Theriot while playing out of position (Best 2nd Baseman in baseball playing Short) was steady and wasn't a priority. Plus, it was easier to find a solid 2nd basemen then an upgrade over Theriot at SS. Now you just flip around huh because you "look at the numbers again". Maybe if you actually WATCH A GAME you wouldn't have too.

As for everyone else, Theriot is fine. If we can find an UPGRADE over him, terrific. But it's going to be hard to find one in this market. And I am not hot on Caberra unless it's a 1-2 year deal.

FWIW... Starlin Castro is leading the Arizona Fall League in hitting with a .421 average.

The numbers might not seem very significant given that it's only the minors... and a short season league... but there are some very good offensive players out there he's competing with.

Very impressive so far.