Free Trial Ad
Why Subscribe?
  • Player/Prospect News
  • Exclusive Insider Info
  • Members-Only Forums
  • Exclusive Videos
  • Subscribe Now!
InboxChat RoomChat Room (0 fans in chatroom)

Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via Fangraphs

Posted: 1/7/2014 11:29 AM

Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via Fangraphs 


My step-son is a huge Cardinal fan, he sent me this today:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...eneral-manager/

I hope our FO is operating under a similar model now. We may dislike everything about them, but their recent/current analytic tactical approach has been working very well. Not all dissimilar to Oakland and Tampa Bay I'm sure.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/7/2014 11:39 AM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



1stimer wrote: My step-son is a huge Cardinal fan, he sent me this today:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...eneral-manager/

I hope our FO is operating under a similar model now. We may dislike everything about them, but their recent/current analytic tactical approach has been working very well. Not all dissimilar to Oakland and Tampa Bay I'm sure.
Yeah, but with tons of money.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 2:04 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 


Wait, where are all of those high $ free agents that are required to win?

In the last 8 years here are their top deals:

Holiday - 120 million in 2009
Beltran - 26 million in 2011
Peralta - 53 million in 2013

No other FA signings over 20 million? Huh?

Since 2006 the Cubs have spent 540 million on FA while the Cards have spent 340.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 2:19 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



absolutebadger wrote: Wait, where are all of those high $ free agents that are required to win?

In the last 8 years here are their top deals:

Holiday - 120 million in 2009
Beltran - 26 million in 2011
Peralta - 53 million in 2013

No other FA signings over 20 million? Huh?

Since 2006 the Cubs have spent 540 million on FA while the Cards have spent 340.
Yes, but you're leaving out that they spent a ton to retain a few of their own "would be" free agents as well:

Craig - 31 mil in 2013
Molina - 91 mil in 2012
Wainwright - 97 mil in 2012

You still have to pay the homegrown guys at some point as well.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/7/2014 2:19 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



absolutebadger wrote: Wait, where are all of those high $ free agents that are required to win?

In the last 8 years here are their top deals:

Holiday - 120 million in 2009
Beltran - 26 million in 2011
Peralta - 53 million in 2013

No other FA signings over 20 million? Huh?

Since 2006 the Cubs have spent 540 million on FA while the Cards have spent 340.
High $ free agents aren't requred to win along with tanking reasons weren't required by St Louis to win wither. They have found a middle ground which is what I wish the Cubs had done.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 2:34 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote: Wait, where are all of those high $ free agents that are required to win?

In the last 8 years here are their top deals:

Holiday - 120 million in 2009
Beltran - 26 million in 2011
Peralta - 53 million in 2013

No other FA signings over 20 million? Huh?

Since 2006 the Cubs have spent 540 million on FA while the Cards have spent 340.
High $ free agents aren't requred to win along with tanking reasons weren't required by St Louis to win wither. They have found a middle ground which is what I wish the Cubs had done.
What the Cards have done very well is develop talent and then mix in an occasional FA. The Cubs don't yet have the home gorwn talent base to build around. The example I just laid out shows that outspending the comp does no good without the homegrown cheap base.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/7/2014 2:40 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



absolutebadger wrote:
What the Cards have done very well is develop talent and then mix in an occasional FA. The Cubs don't yet have the home gorwn talent base to build around. The example I just laid out shows that outspending the comp does no good without the homegrown cheap base.
How did they get that talent without tanking multiple seasons ?
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 2:58 PM

RE: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via Fangr 


The culture of winning that the Cardinals have built as an organization is enviable, but they've also had a goddamned horseshoe up their ass for the better part of 15 years. A 13th round draft pick turning into the best hitter of his generation and a rehab project turning into a Cy Young winner aren't exactly things you can purposely attempt to replicate. Not to mention the annual anomalies like Ryan Ludwick hitting 37 homers, Kyle Lohse going 16-3 at age 33, or Matt Carpenter finishing 4th in MVP voting in his first full season as a starter at age 27.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 3:02 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
What the Cards have done very well is develop talent and then mix in an occasional FA. The Cubs don't yet have the home gorwn talent base to build around. The example I just laid out shows that outspending the comp does no good without the homegrown cheap base.
How did they get that talent without tanking multiple seasons ?
They drafted well, were willing to pay over slot in certain cases and most importantly, had an excel[ent player development system in place  so that their prospects could actually be successful.

Last edited 1/7/2014 3:38 PM by dancingwithgoats

Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 3:07 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



1stimer wrote:
absolutebadger wrote: Wait, where are all of those high $ free agents that are required to win?

In the last 8 years here are their top deals:

Holiday - 120 million in 2009
Beltran - 26 million in 2011
Peralta - 53 million in 2013

No other FA signings over 20 million? Huh?

Since 2006 the Cubs have spent 540 million on FA while the Cards have spent 340.
Yes, but you're leaving out that they spent a ton to retain a few of their own "would be" free agents as well:

Craig - 31 mil in 2013
Molina - 91 mil in 2012
Wainwright - 97 mil in 2012

You still have to pay the homegrown guys at some point as well.
I agree you will have to pay the homegrown players eventually, like the Cubs have done with Castro and Rizzo and have attempted with JS. For them to pay Molina and Wainwright type contracts to their own players, then they need players worthy of those type of contracts. They have already shown the willingness to spend Craig type money on their own and even Soler was paid 30 million as an international FA.

Wainwright was obtained from the Braves along with Marquis for JD Drew. Drew was the #5 overall pick and when traded had 1 full year of control left. I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision to not resign Drew, but the Cards traded a year too early instead of not at all and wound up with a decade + of Wainwright. So it is snot all about signing your own guys, but knowing which pieces fit and for what price and having the stones to trade a very good player for multiple lesser players with upside.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 3:16 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



dancingwithgoats wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
What the Cards have done very well is develop talent and then mix in an occasional FA. The Cubs don't yet have the home gorwn talent base to build around. The example I just laid out shows that outspending the comp does no good without the homegrown cheap base.
How did they get that talent without tanking multiple seasons ?
They drafted well, were willing to pay over slot in certain cases and most importantly, had an excelent player development system in place  so that their prospects could actually be successful.
They were also very active in the international FA market. Most importantly, if you read the article in this thread, they were among the leaders in baseball in having detailed plans for scouting and player development, while the Cubs would have had no chance in following the plans if they were given to them by the Cards.
Reply | Quote

Posted: 1/7/2014 4:04 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 



absolutebadger wrote:
dancingwithgoats wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
What the Cards have done very well is develop talent and then mix in an occasional FA. The Cubs don't yet have the home gorwn talent base to build around. The example I just laid out shows that outspending the comp does no good without the homegrown cheap base.
How did they get that talent without tanking multiple seasons ?
They drafted well, were willing to pay over slot in certain cases and most importantly, had an excelent player development system in place  so that their prospects could actually be successful.
They were also very active in the international FA market. Most importantly, if you read the article in this thread, they were among the leaders in baseball in having detailed plans for scouting and player development, while the Cubs would have had no chance in following the plans if they were given to them by the Cards.
Also made a couple of  far reaching moves. Received Wainwright from Atlanta in the JD Drew trade and signed Chris Carpenter as a reclamation project after he was released by Toronto ( after shoulder surgery.)

So they have been smart in the deals they've made, players they've drafted and astute enough to have a detailed franchise wide system that develops these players to their full potential.

This just has never been a part of the Cubs way. They've had too many poor drafts and absolutely no philosophy as to player development.  So even when they drafted a real talent they were unlikely to reach their potential. This was especially true of the position players who came up fundementally unsound and never seemed to grasp the strike zone.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/7/2014 5:09 PM

Re: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via 


The Pirates have the #1 farm system according to the upcoming BA rankings.  The Cardinals have the #7 system even after all the prospects that graduated last year.  This sustained success thing in the NL Central, I hope three isn't a crowd.
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/7/2014 5:21 PM

RE: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via Fangr 



DoubleDown11 wrote: The culture of winning that the Cardinals have built as an organization is enviable, but they've also had a goddamned horseshoe up their ass for the better part of 15 years. A 13th round draft pick turning into the best hitter of his generation and a rehab project turning into a Cy Young winner aren't exactly things you can purposely attempt to replicate. Not to mention the annual anomalies like Ryan Ludwick hitting 37 homers, Kyle Lohse going 16-3 at age 33, or Matt Carpenter finishing 4th in MVP voting in his first full season as a starter at age 27.
Yeah, he never showed that kind of potential in the minors even while he was old for his level, although he always had good plate discipline.  Don't forget how the Angels not only saved their a$$es by giving Pujols a ridiculous contract, but it gave them Wacha in the process.

Even Cardinal shill Bernie Miklasz lists all the lucky breaks they got in the past three years alone:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports...d99e76791b.html
Reply | Quote
Avatar

Posted: 1/8/2014 12:26 PM

RE: Interesting Read on STL's Front Office Philosophy -via Fangr 


They did a pretty good job taking advantage of the old free agent compensation system and they've drafted very well recently.
Reply | Quote