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NL Central

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Posted: 12/17/2012 8:49 AM

NL Central 


http://www.stltoday.com/sports...f607cff852.html

Battle between Reds and Cardinals to win the Central

Can the Cubs beat out the Pirates for 4th ?
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Posted: 12/17/2012 9:52 AM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote: http://www.stltoday.com/sports...f607cff852.html

Battle between Reds and Cardinals to win the Central

Can the Cubs beat out the Pirates for 4th ?

Does it matter who finishes 4th?
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Posted: 12/17/2012 9:53 AM

Re: NL Central 


Doubtful we can match Pittsburgh, but it's not impossible. Again, we enter the season with a long list of "if's" and "maybe's" to pin our threads of hope onto... knowing that unless we are over .500 in July, we're likely purging most or all tradable assets for more young talent to deepen the minor league system. I think we're more likely to see 95-100 losses again than smell the 75 wins it would take to leap-frog over Pittsburgh. They have a lot of young talent, more time playing together than our young talent, and have a legitimate superstar in their OF. I'm really NOT a cynic: we just don't have the depth, role players, an ace, or run-producing hitters to compete for anything but draft position in 2014.

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”  ~Albert Einstein

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Posted: 12/17/2012 10:11 AM

Re: NL Central 



KatieCubFan wrote:
cubs2007 wrote: http://www.stltoday.com/sports...f607cff852.html

Battle between Reds and Cardinals to win the Central

Can the Cubs beat out the Pirates for 4th ?

Does it matter who finishes 4th?
Most would probably prefer a 5th place finish for a better draft pick. Can't wait for the goal to to be 1st place and winning the World Series.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 12:20 PM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
KatieCubFan wrote:
cubs2007 wrote: http://www.stltoday.com/sports...f607cff852.html

Battle between Reds and Cardinals to win the Central

Can the Cubs beat out the Pirates for 4th ?

Does it matter who finishes 4th?
Most would probably prefer a 5th place finish for a better draft pick. Can't wait for the goal to to be 1st place and winning the World Series.
I would most definitely prefer a last place finish and chance to get an impact draft pick to your proposed approach to sacrifice future success for a more watchable (but still losing) product now.

Yes, yes. Better now and in the future is your rebuttal mantra. This is not possible given the guys you want to sign and your thought that if any team is willing to pay it, it is therefore a fair price. That and your desire to give $75M to guys with a lower OPS than DeJesus. And to magically know what posting fees other teams are submitting in order to outbid them by one dollar. I'm sure the Rangers wish they had that skill...could have saved them $30M on Darvish.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 12:56 PM

RE: NL Central 


The Reds were already the best team in the division even with Votto missing 50 games. They also have the possibility that Chapman becomes a dominant starter, plus the possibility that Jay Bruce makes the leap from very good to MVP caliber. The only thing holding them back is that they had the healthiest pitching staff in baseball last year, and odds are that won't repeat in 2013. As long as they don't completely collapse though, they are the favorite for now and for the forseeable future. Two guys that I thought were over the hill in Jocketty and Baker have quietly done an excellent job with that organization.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 2:52 PM

Re: NL Central 



SportsGoblin wrote:
I would most definitely prefer a last place finish and chance to get an impact draft pick to your proposed approach to sacrifice future success for a more watchable (but still losing) product now.

Yes, yes. Better now and in the future is your rebuttal mantra. This is not possible given the guys you want to sign and your thought that if any team is willing to pay it, it is therefore a fair price. That and your desire to give $75M to guys with a lower OPS than DeJesus. And to magically know what posting fees other teams are submitting in order to outbid them by one dollar. I'm sure the Rangers wish they had that skill...could have saved them $30M on Darvish.
You can twist statements all you want but does not change the fact the major league team has very little talent and the minor league talent is years away. Share how the team is going to magically going to get impact players at value deals and suddenly develop prospects that provide sustained success. I'm glad no other team they are competing with is trying to improve though internal development.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 3:49 PM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
SportsGoblin wrote:
I would most definitely prefer a last place finish and chance to get an impact draft pick to your proposed approach to sacrifice future success for a more watchable (but still losing) product now.

Yes, yes. Better now and in the future is your rebuttal mantra. This is not possible given the guys you want to sign and your thought that if any team is willing to pay it, it is therefore a fair price. That and your desire to give $75M to guys with a lower OPS than DeJesus. And to magically know what posting fees other teams are submitting in order to outbid them by one dollar. I'm sure the Rangers wish they had that skill...could have saved them $30M on Darvish.
You can twist statements all you want but does not change the fact the major league team has very little talent and the minor league talent is years away. Share how the team is going to magically going to get impact players at value deals and suddenly develop prospects that provide sustained success. I'm glad no other team they are competing with is trying to improve though internal development.
Time for you to answer questions. Whom should they have signed?
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Posted: 12/17/2012 4:31 PM

Re: NL Central 



SportsGoblin wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
You can twist statements all you want but does not change the fact the major league team has very little talent and the minor league talent is years away. Share how the team is going to magically going to get impact players at value deals and suddenly develop prospects that provide sustained success. I'm glad no other team they are competing with is trying to improve though internal development.
Time for you to answer questions. Whom should they have signed?
I'll predict they sign Carlos Villanueva, a RH back up OF & IF, and a bullpen arm
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Posted: 12/17/2012 4:40 PM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
SportsGoblin wrote:
I would most definitely prefer a last place finish and chance to get an impact draft pick to your proposed approach to sacrifice future success for a more watchable (but still losing) product now.

Yes, yes. Better now and in the future is your rebuttal mantra. This is not possible given the guys you want to sign and your thought that if any team is willing to pay it, it is therefore a fair price. That and your desire to give $75M to guys with a lower OPS than DeJesus. And to magically know what posting fees other teams are submitting in order to outbid them by one dollar. I'm sure the Rangers wish they had that skill...could have saved them $30M on Darvish.
You can twist statements all you want but does not change the fact the major league team has very little talent and the minor league talent is years away. Share how the team is going to magically going to get impact players at value deals and suddenly develop prospects that provide sustained success. I'm glad no other team they are competing with is trying to improve though internal development.
They magically traded for Rizzo for what appears to be at this point a bullpen arm. Certainly that was a value deal. 9/30 for Soler could be a huge value for the Cubs for close to the next decade. I would think they would continue to make those kind of moves to acquire young talent.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 4:51 PM

Re: NL Central 



absolutebadger wrote:
They magically traded for Rizzo for what appears to be at this point a bullpen arm. Certainly that was a value deal. 9/30 for Soler could be a huge value for the Cubs for close to the next decade. I would think they would continue to make those kind of moves to acquire young talent.
The Rizzo trade has been praised by everyone - Waiting for more deals like this

The Soler type opportunity is closed since you can no longer overpay anymore. I would wait a couple seasons before declaring him value for the next decade.
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Posted: 12/17/2012 4:57 PM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
They magically traded for Rizzo for what appears to be at this point a bullpen arm. Certainly that was a value deal. 9/30 for Soler could be a huge value for the Cubs for close to the next decade. I would think they would continue to make those kind of moves to acquire young talent.
The Rizzo trade has been praised by everyone - Waiting for more deals like this

The Soler type opportunity is closed since you can no longer overpay anymore. I would wait a couple seasons before declaring him value for the next decade.
International players will still be coming to the US. I would think that the team/s with the best scouting and facilities in the part of the world with the highest concentration of MLB talent would have the upper hand. Hmmm
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Posted: 12/18/2012 8:14 AM

Re: NL Central 



absolutebadger wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
They magically traded for Rizzo for what appears to be at this point a bullpen arm. Certainly that was a value deal. 9/30 for Soler could be a huge value for the Cubs for close to the next decade. I would think they would continue to make those kind of moves to acquire young talent.
The Rizzo trade has been praised by everyone - Waiting for more deals like this

The Soler type opportunity is closed since you can no longer overpay anymore. I would wait a couple seasons before declaring him value for the next decade.
International players will still be coming to the US. I would think that the team/s with the best scouting and facilities in the part of the world with the highest concentration of MLB talent would have the upper hand. Hmmm
You now have a cap on spending and all teams have scouts in these markets. You are very limited in signing these players and the latest CBA leveled the field on these type transactions.
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Posted: 12/18/2012 9:49 AM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
absolutebadger wrote:
They magically traded for Rizzo for what appears to be at this point a bullpen arm. Certainly that was a value deal. 9/30 for Soler could be a huge value for the Cubs for close to the next decade. I would think they would continue to make those kind of moves to acquire young talent.
The Rizzo trade has been praised by everyone - Waiting for more deals like this

The Soler type opportunity is closed since you can no longer overpay anymore. I would wait a couple seasons before declaring him value for the next decade.
International players will still be coming to the US. I would think that the team/s with the best scouting and facilities in the part of the world with the highest concentration of MLB talent would have the upper hand. Hmmm
You now have a cap on spending and all teams have scouts in these markets. You are very limited in signing these players and the latest CBA leveled the field on these type transactions.
Not all teams have a brand new training facility in the DR with multiple playing fields, facilities to house 80 players and assorted staff, etc:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120202&a mp;content_id=26549778&vkey=news_chc&c_id= chc&partnerId=rss_chc

The Cubs do. In this, the Cubs are the best. So, if a DR player can only get paid up to a certain amount, things other than money factor in. A better training center is definitely one of those things.

Also, it gives the Cubs more ability to watch players play and hence a better ability to scout tendencies, etc. than other teams might have. So they hopefully spend their limited money on the right guys.
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Posted: 12/18/2012 9:54 AM

Re: NL Central 


Except you. Why don't you go on more about the Cubs not getting Chase Headley even though you said last year "I'll pass" several times. Total a$$hole....ohlord
cubs2007 wrote: The Rizzo trade has been praised by everyone
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Posted: 12/18/2012 10:18 AM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
SportsGoblin wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
You can twist statements all you want but does not change the fact the major league team has very little talent and the minor league talent is years away. Share how the team is going to magically going to get impact players at value deals and suddenly develop prospects that provide sustained success. I'm glad no other team they are competing with is trying to improve though internal development.
Time for you to answer questions. Whom should they have signed?
I'll predict they sign Carlos Villanueva, a RH back up OF & IF, and a bullpen arm
Ok. So will you be happy if they do this?
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Posted: 12/18/2012 10:29 AM

Re: NL Central 



SportsGoblin wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
SportsGoblin wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
You can twist statements all you want but does not change the fact the major league team has very little talent and the minor league talent is years away. Share how the team is going to magically going to get impact players at value deals and suddenly develop prospects that provide sustained success. I'm glad no other team they are competing with is trying to improve though internal development.
Time for you to answer questions. Whom should they have signed?
I'll predict they sign Carlos Villanueva, a RH back up OF & IF, and a bullpen arm
Ok. So will you be happy if they do this?
If that is all they do this off-season then I would call it a failure. You came in second on Sanchez and Ryu that could have been part of the long term plan. There is a big gap between prospects in the low minors and enough talent at the major league level to compete. I would expect more from the front office.
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  • ARAMIS13
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Posted: 12/18/2012 12:17 PM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:
If that is all they do this off-season then I would call it a failure. You came in second on Sanchez and Ryu that could have been part of the long term plan. There is a big gap between prospects in the low minors and enough talent at the major league level to compete. I would expect more from the front office.
we were never winning Sanchez.  Cubs made him a good offer and he just used it to get more from Detroit.  Rumor has it there was a bigger offer on the table and he passed it up.  He had Detroit #1,2,3,4 and 5 on his list IMO. 

Villanueva is a star in the making.  He'd be a good signing I think. 

Don't give me the we don't have talent to compete either.  We have talent we just need them to perform.  We CAN compete, doesn't mean we will, but we can.  If the bullpen wasn't awful last year who knows how different the season could have been.  It's a big downer when your bullpen blows the first two games of the season though that you could have won.
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Posted: 12/18/2012 12:46 PM

Re: NL Central 



ARAMIS13 wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
If that is all they do this off-season then I would call it a failure. You came in second on Sanchez and Ryu that could have been part of the long term plan. There is a big gap between prospects in the low minors and enough talent at the major league level to compete. I would expect more from the front office.
we were never winning Sanchez.  Cubs made him a good offer and he just used it to get more from Detroit.  Rumor has it there was a bigger offer on the table and he passed it up.  He had Detroit #1,2,3,4 and 5 on his list IMO. 

Villanueva is a star in the making.  He'd be a good signing I think. 

Don't give me the we don't have talent to compete either.  We have talent we just need them to perform.  We CAN compete, doesn't mean we will, but we can.  If the bullpen wasn't awful last year who knows how different the season could have been.  It's a big downer when your bullpen blows the first two games of the season though that you could have won.
The Detroit GM had to get the owners approval to go 5 years.

Villanueva is not a star in the making. He is a 29 year old swing man. He could be used to make some spot start and pitch in long relief.

The team ranked toward the bottom in offense in baseball last year and have not improved the offense. It will still be a team that is going to struggle to score runs. The bullpen is still counting on Marmol, Camp and Russell like last off-season. The rest is filled with question marks and  that includes Fujikawa. Once you get close to the July trade deadline you will be saying goodbye to a number of players to add prospects to the farm as you start your build toward 2014.
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  • ARAMIS13
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Posted: 12/18/2012 1:22 PM

Re: NL Central 



cubs2007 wrote:

The team ranked toward the bottom in offense in baseball last year and have not improved the offense. It will still be a team that is going to struggle to score runs. The bullpen is still counting on Marmol, Camp and Russell like last off-season. The rest is filled with question marks and  that includes Fujikawa. Once you get close to the July trade deadline you will be saying goodbye to a number of players to add prospects to the farm as you start your build toward 2014.
Baltimore ranked 20th in offense
Atlanta ranked 21st in offense
Cubs ranked 26th in offense
Tampa Bay ranked 27th
Oakland ranked 28th

you can be bad at offense if you pitch and play defense, but even with the 2012 Cubs offense if they were able to pitch effectively they can stay in the race.
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