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Theo's Strategy

  • RAMBLE
  • Franchise Player
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Posted: 11/8/2012 3:09 PM

Theo's Strategy 


I am RAMBLE and I approve this message.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicag...thod-to-improve
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Posted: 11/8/2012 3:26 PM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



RAMBLE wrote: I am RAMBLE and I approve this message.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicag...thod-to-improve
From the article -
For years Beane built from within his organization and moved good players for other organizations' young players. When many of those players became too costly, he took other young players in return to keep the process fluid. Beane has also refined the art of signing and flipping players for a better club in future seasons.

I'm not a big fan of the signing / trading for stop gap players then flipping for prospects strategy.
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Posted: 11/8/2012 4:00 PM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



cubs2007 wrote:
RAMBLE wrote: I am RAMBLE and I approve this message.

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicag...thod-to-improve
From the article -
For years Beane built from within his organization and moved good players for other organizations' young players. When many of those players became too costly, he took other young players in return to keep the process fluid. Beane has also refined the art of signing and flipping players for a better club in future seasons.

I'm not a big fan of the signing / trading for stop gap players then flipping for prospects strategy.
I don't completely disagree with you, but I don't have a problem with it early on in the rebuild.  It's kinda hedging your bets in my mind.  Try to grab some guys to help the team but make sure they are tradeable in case the team doesn't gel or get on a roll and if you're out of it, flip them.  I could even see this type of thing being done on a competitive team to keep the talent coming in as long as you have the youth behind the pieces you are moving.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 4:42 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 


Not to be a wanker, but Beane works in one of the smallest baseball markets in MLB and does his thing because (a) he enjoys it (he's had lucrative chances to leave & chose not to) and (b) he has no choice financially. Chicago is not Oakland... it's the 3rd largest baseball market in MLB and we pull in more than enough to spend $150M a year on payroll and STILL be running well into the black. Comparing what Beane does in Oakland to what Theo is doing here isn't particularly productive. We could afford to sign Youkilis, A. Sanchez, Ryu, Hamilton, Reed Johnson as a #25, 3 above-average relievers, pony up for our arbitration players, and still be below our payroll when Ricketts took over. They just don't want to. Beane couldn't afford to sign Sanchez alone, nevermind Sanchez and add anyone else. Hardly at all comparable... just saying...noidea

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”  ~Albert Einstein

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Posted: 11/9/2012 8:19 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



mindbodyspirit wrote: Not to be a wanker, but Beane works in one of the smallest baseball markets in MLB and does his thing because (a) he enjoys it (he's had lucrative chances to leave & chose not to) and (b) he has no choice financially. Chicago is not Oakland... it's the 3rd largest baseball market in MLB and we pull in more than enough to spend $150M a year on payroll and STILL be running well into the black. Comparing what Beane does in Oakland to what Theo is doing here isn't particularly productive. We could afford to sign Youkilis, A. Sanchez, Ryu, Hamilton, Reed Johnson as a #25, 3 above-average relievers, pony up for our arbitration players, and still be below our payroll when Ricketts took over. They just don't want to. Beane couldn't afford to sign Sanchez alone, nevermind Sanchez and add anyone else. Hardly at all comparable... just saying...noidea
Many agree with you that there is no reason for the Cubs to act like a small market team. Some argue that last off-season was done because Theo still had to learn the organization. No excuses this year as he is taking the same direction with attempting to acquire bounce back players with the idea to flip.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:21 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



cubs2007 wrote:
mindbodyspirit wrote: Not to be a wanker, but Beane works in one of the smallest baseball markets in MLB and does his thing because (a) he enjoys it (he's had lucrative chances to leave & chose not to) and (b) he has no choice financially. Chicago is not Oakland... it's the 3rd largest baseball market in MLB and we pull in more than enough to spend $150M a year on payroll and STILL be running well into the black. Comparing what Beane does in Oakland to what Theo is doing here isn't particularly productive. We could afford to sign Youkilis, A. Sanchez, Ryu, Hamilton, Reed Johnson as a #25, 3 above-average relievers, pony up for our arbitration players, and still be below our payroll when Ricketts took over. They just don't want to. Beane couldn't afford to sign Sanchez alone, nevermind Sanchez and add anyone else. Hardly at all comparable... just saying...noidea
Many agree with you that there is no reason for the Cubs to act like a small market team. Some argue that last off-season was done because Theo still had to learn the organization. No excuses this year as he is taking the same direction with attempting to acquire bounce back players with the idea to flip.
The big market Cubs spent 109 million and The A's spent 52 million. The Cubs were bad last season not because they didn't spend enough money, but instead because of the inflated contracts of useless players. Byrd, Soto and Z had no value and made a combined 25 million. The Cubs actually did quite a bit considering what they had to work with and the dead money that was left on the Books. The FA pool was terrible last season.

What other teams spent 30 million on a International FA last season?
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:31 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



absolutebadger wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
mindbodyspirit wrote: Not to be a wanker, but Beane works in one of the smallest baseball markets in MLB and does his thing because (a) he enjoys it (he's had lucrative chances to leave & chose not to) and (b) he has no choice financially. Chicago is not Oakland... it's the 3rd largest baseball market in MLB and we pull in more than enough to spend $150M a year on payroll and STILL be running well into the black. Comparing what Beane does in Oakland to what Theo is doing here isn't particularly productive. We could afford to sign Youkilis, A. Sanchez, Ryu, Hamilton, Reed Johnson as a #25, 3 above-average relievers, pony up for our arbitration players, and still be below our payroll when Ricketts took over. They just don't want to. Beane couldn't afford to sign Sanchez alone, nevermind Sanchez and add anyone else. Hardly at all comparable... just saying...noidea
Many agree with you that there is no reason for the Cubs to act like a small market team. Some argue that last off-season was done because Theo still had to learn the organization. No excuses this year as he is taking the same direction with attempting to acquire bounce back players with the idea to flip.
The big market Cubs spent 109 million and The A's spent 52 million. The Cubs were bad last season not because they didn't spend enough money, but instead because of the inflated contracts of useless players. Byrd, Soto and Z had no value and made a combined 25 million. The Cubs actually did quite a bit considering what they had to work with and the dead money that was left on the Books. The FA pool was terrible last season.

What other teams spent 30 million on a International FA last season?
The A's (Cespedes) and the Rangers (Darvish) are the two that come to mind....
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:36 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



absolutebadger wrote:
The big market Cubs spent 109 million and The A's spent 52 million. The Cubs were bad last season not because they didn't spend enough money, but instead because of the inflated contracts of useless players. Byrd, Soto and Z had no value and made a combined 25 million. The Cubs actually did quite a bit considering what they had to work with and the dead money that was left on the Books. The FA pool was terrible last season.

What other teams spent 30 million on a International FA last season?
The spending on minor leagues vs the major league team is an old argumenet. It is great that the front office is improving the farm but also improve the major league team at the same time.

You mention the dead money on the books so it is apples to oranges when comparing the A's and Cubs. You will have a better chance of winning by spending money on the major league roster.
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  • RAMBLE
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Posted: 11/9/2012 9:47 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 


Unless I'm missing something (which happens), I'm for anything that looks to upgrade our developing talent base. Our Pro base stinks and can't win until/unless we get kids developed.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:06 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



RAMBLE wrote: Unless I'm missing something (which happens), I'm for anything that looks to upgrade our developing talent base. Our Pro base stinks and can't win until/unless we get kids developed.
How about getting more major league league talent while you wait for the prospects to develop. Nothing wrong with getting some proven talent to help the young players learn to win over tanking seasons to get a higher draft pick.
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  • RAMBLE
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Posted: 11/9/2012 10:51 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



cubs2007 wrote:
RAMBLE wrote: Unless I'm missing something (which happens), I'm for anything that looks to upgrade our developing talent base. Our Pro base stinks and can't win until/unless we get kids developed.
How about getting more major league league talent while you wait for the prospects to develop. Nothing wrong with getting some proven talent to help the young players learn to win over tanking seasons to get a higher draft pick.
IMHO, only if the "major leaguers" are major leaguers. Meaning players good enough for when we are true contenders. And they need to be of an age that coincides with that. Not too old.

Last edited 11/9/2012 10:52 AM by RAMBLE

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Posted: 11/9/2012 11:18 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



RAMBLE wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
RAMBLE wrote: Unless I'm missing something (which happens), I'm for anything that looks to upgrade our developing talent base. Our Pro base stinks and can't win until/unless we get kids developed.
How about getting more major league league talent while you wait for the prospects to develop. Nothing wrong with getting some proven talent to help the young players learn to win over tanking seasons to get a higher draft pick.
IMHO, only if the "major leaguers" are major leaguers. Meaning players good enough for when we are true contenders. And they need to be of an age that coincides with that. Not too old.
What do you consider too old ?

Cubs are considering sign Samarzija to an extension and he turns 28 in January.
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  • RAMBLE
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Posted: 11/9/2012 11:32 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



cubs2007 wrote:
RAMBLE wrote:
cubs2007 wrote:
RAMBLE wrote: Unless I'm missing something (which happens), I'm for anything that looks to upgrade our developing talent base. Our Pro base stinks and can't win until/unless we get kids developed.
How about getting more major league league talent while you wait for the prospects to develop. Nothing wrong with getting some proven talent to help the young players learn to win over tanking seasons to get a higher draft pick.
IMHO, only if the "major leaguers" are major leaguers. Meaning players good enough for when we are true contenders. And they need to be of an age that coincides with that. Not too old.
What do you consider too old ?

Cubs are considering sign Samarzija to an extension and he turns 28 in January.
I don't know really. Whatever it is by position where you can typically still be in your prime or quite effective. Sammy at 28 seems like an excellent fit.

My thing is more against signing guys to fill next years "holes", when the hole fillers are journeymen. We've done a lot of that.
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  • RAMBLE
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Posted: 11/9/2012 11:43 AM

Re: Theo's Strategy 


One addendum. It's very easy to get hole filler guys than get core players/stars. Get the latter first and the rest is easy.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 1:21 PM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



RAMBLE wrote:
IMHO, only if the "major leaguers" are major leaguers. Meaning players good enough for when we are true contenders. And they need to be of an age that coincides with that. Not too old.
What do you consider too old ?

Cubs are considering sign Samarzija to an extension and he turns 28 in January.
I don't know really. Whatever it is by position where you can typically still be in your prime or quite effective. Sammy at 28 seems like an excellent fit.

My thing is more against signing guys to fill next years "holes", when the hole fillers are journeymen. We've done a lot of that.
You want players that aren't too old but you don't know what is too old.
My answer would be not to pursue players past their prime which is 32.

You say you are against filling holes with journeyman but that is basically the strategy you have been endorsing. Getting players for 1 or 2 year deals and hope you can flip for prospects

Why not just sign or trade for players in their mid to late 20's that can fill needs short term and long term ? This way you are not in a constant cycle of replacing players after trading them at the deadline while you hope to promote players from the farm.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 2:03 PM

RE: Theo's Strategy 


They're not using Billy Beane's strategy. They're using Theo Epstein's strategy. The man was in charge of an organization that balanced player development, a large major league payroll, and striking gold with lower level signings better than any organization ever has to the tune of 6 playoff appearances and 2 world championships.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 2:28 PM

Re: Theo's Strategy 



cubs2007 wrote:
RAMBLE wrote:
IMHO, only if the "major leaguers" are major leaguers. Meaning players good enough for when we are true contenders. And they need to be of an age that coincides with that. Not too old.
What do you consider too old ?

Cubs are considering sign Samarzija to an extension and he turns 28 in January.
I don't know really. Whatever it is by position where you can typically still be in your prime or quite effective. Sammy at 28 seems like an excellent fit.

My thing is more against signing guys to fill next years "holes", when the hole fillers are journeymen. We've done a lot of that.
You want players that aren't too old but you don't know what is too old.
My answer would be not to pursue players past their prime which is 32.

You say you are against filling holes with journeyman but that is basically the strategy you have been endorsing. Getting players for 1 or 2 year deals and hope you can flip for prospects

Why not just sign or trade for players in their mid to late 20's that can fill needs short term and long term ? This way you are not in a constant cycle of replacing players after trading them at the deadline while you hope to promote players from the farm.
But who fit the criteria you just laid out last season. Who should they have signed? They had 3 holes,1B, 3B and RF and there wasn't anyone other than Cespedes available that would qualify under your example. Trades are a 2 way street. They filled 1 of the three positional holes via trade and missed on another.

They built one of the better starting rotations in the league and all they had going in was Garza, Demp and Z. They might now have one of the best defensive infields in the league. They made huge advances in both the major and minor league teams, but some of you can't see past 100 losses- the result of the trading deadline sell off. Everyone of those moves helped this years team.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 2:30 PM

RE: Theo's Strategy 



DoubleDown11 wrote: They're not using Billy Beane's strategy. They're using Theo Epstein's strategy. The man was in charge of an organization that balanced player development, a large major league payroll, and striking gold with lower level signings better than any organization ever has to the tune of 6 playoff appearances and 2 world championships.
They are using more of Beane's strategy than what he did in Boston. This is the problem some have - they are no longer working like a big market team but functioning like the A's.
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Posted: 11/9/2012 3:36 PM

RE: Theo's Strategy 



cubs2007 wrote:
DoubleDown11 wrote: They're not using Billy Beane's strategy. They're using Theo Epstein's strategy. The man was in charge of an organization that balanced player development, a large major league payroll, and striking gold with lower level signings better than any organization ever has to the tune of 6 playoff appearances and 2 world championships.
They are using more of Beane's strategy than what he did in Boston. This is the problem some have - they are no longer working like a big market team but functioning like the A's.
They out spent the A's by 50 million
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Posted: 11/9/2012 3:36 PM

RE: Theo's Strategy 




---------------------------------------------
--- cubs2007 wrote:


DoubleDown11 wrote: They're not using Billy Beane's strategy. They're using Theo Epstein's strategy. The man was in charge of an organization that balanced player development, a large major league payroll, and striking gold with lower level signings better than any organization ever has to the tune of 6 playoff appearances and 2 world championships.
They are using more of Beane's strategy than what he did in Boston. This is the problem some have - they are no longer working like a big market team but functioning like the A's.

---------------------------------------------

For like the 1200th time this is because they do not want to spend major resources in an attempt to piece together a winner starting with a roster so devoid of talent. That has shown to not work here. Additionally, such moves would hamper the budget and roster when the "kids" do start showing up.


You don't like this approach. We get it. You can post the same thing over amd over again until you wear the skin off your fingers but it isn't going to change a darn thing.

You're the kid who plugs his ears, closes his eyes and throws a tantrum when he doesn't get his way.
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