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Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB.

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Posted: 7/17/2014 11:37 AM

Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


I know this will make insagt1 happy!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...d-return-majors

 

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Posted: 7/17/2014 1:28 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


great - do the gnats need any help packing?
...stay classy 'skins fans
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Posted: 7/17/2014 3:08 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 



POPPA wrote: I know this will make insagt1 happy!

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...d-return-majors
Abso-LUTE-ly!!! Of course, it would be best (for me) if they went back to the NL. I really don't want to have to have my two favorite teams playing each other too much!! 
But seriously---if Montreal can get some good corporate ownership (specifically in the communications field...like Rogers in Toronto) AND they get a decent stadium, there would be no better city for a relocation.

(no, it won't be the Gnats!!!...but like when the Senators moved to the Twin Cities and then eventually got another team...they stayed the Senators....I believe another team in Montreal would still be the Expos.
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Posted: 7/22/2014 11:21 AM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


Personally, I would not trust anything Selig says. I think the gentleman talks like a politician and is only concerned with the almighty dollar. All JMHO!




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Posted: 7/22/2014 12:24 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 



DrBNic wrote: Personally, I would not trust anything Selig says. I think the gentleman talks like a politician and is only concerned with the almighty dollar. All JMHO!

This.

That team averages like 12 fans a game in their last couple seasons.

It's the ultimate hockey town. There's just no interest in baseball there anymore.

Plus where is this mystery team going to come from? Expansion is a horrendously bad idea. And the only team that's even a remote candidate for moving based on current lease situations and current profitability in their current market is Oakland. Moving a franchise from the West Coast to the East Coast presents all kinds of additional problems that just aren't work it.

Plus, Bud Selig is going to be the commissioner for like another 20 minutes. (Thank god) He doesn't have any power to push something like this. This is just crazy old man talk.


For POPPA! We won't stop!
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Posted: 7/22/2014 12:46 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


No expansion - it's hard enough to put together a rotation as it is.  

Some would argue the talent pool is already too watered down

...stay classy 'skins fans
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Posted: 7/22/2014 2:07 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 



Skipjacks wrote:
DrBNic wrote: Personally, I would not trust anything Selig says. I think the gentleman talks like a politician and is only concerned with the almighty dollar. All JMHO!

This.

That team averages like 12 fans a game in their last couple seasons.

It's the ultimate hockey town. There's just no interest in baseball there anymore.

Plus where is this mystery team going to come from? Expansion is a horrendously bad idea. And the only team that's even a remote candidate for moving based on current lease situations and current profitability in their current market is Oakland. Moving a franchise from the West Coast to the East Coast presents all kinds of additional problems that just aren't work it.

Plus, Bud Selig is going to be the commissioner for like another 20 minutes. (Thank god) He doesn't have any power to push something like this. This is just crazy old man talk.
with due respect Skip---this is a perpetuated misconception that was promoted by the ESPN's of the world because they had their own agenda. There is a LOT of interest in baseball in Montreal and always has been. The old Montreal Royals was Jackie Robinson's first team in the I.L. The Expos drew very well. You can't look at the final years as any indicator whatsoever. The fans were told every year they were relocating.Star players were let go yearly. The owners were cheapskates (Brochu) and out and out liars (Loria) The Stadium was a dump. Plans were already drawn up for LaBatt Parc..in downtown Montreal. land was already ready to be acquired when all the stink hit the fan. Montreal had some of the loudest, most energetic fans in baseball. I attended games there for years. They idolized their stars and the stars knew it. The strike on 94 is what killed them. Everyone pretty much knows that.
The city drew two capacity crowds to the tired old Big Owe this spring for two 'meaningless' exhibition games. They are ready for baseball again...under the right circumstances.
The myth that Montreal is only a hockey town is just that for folks familiar with the history of  baseball there.

Tampa Bay is on as much of a bubble as Oakland for relocation. They have to have a new stadium; they aren't drawing flies and many insiders suggest that Bud would love to vacate that area. They aren't close to getting a new stadium. Moving a West team to the East?  If they want to do it, they will. But the best bet is still TB IMO.

Montreal would bring back a flavor to MLB that has been missing ever since they were hijacked.
but there is little doubt that Montreal is a baseball town that could comfortably support a real MLB team....with the proper owner (like Bell Canada) and a new downtown stadium. The Canadian economy and dollar is also favorable, where it wasn't for years.

Its also interesting to note that in the Expos final season, their biggest crowd was the final game....when teams know they are leaving, the final game is usually an empty house. The fans in Montreal, who weren't stupid, were dealt some very crappy hands towards the end. If they return, they will be a strong addition to MLB.
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Posted: 7/22/2014 3:18 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 



insagt1 wrote:
Skipjacks wrote:
DrBNic wrote: Personally, I would not trust anything Selig says. I think the gentleman talks like a politician and is only concerned with the almighty dollar. All JMHO!

This.

That team averages like 12 fans a game in their last couple seasons.

It's the ultimate hockey town. There's just no interest in baseball there anymore.

Plus where is this mystery team going to come from? Expansion is a horrendously bad idea. And the only team that's even a remote candidate for moving based on current lease situations and current profitability in their current market is Oakland. Moving a franchise from the West Coast to the East Coast presents all kinds of additional problems that just aren't work it.

Plus, Bud Selig is going to be the commissioner for like another 20 minutes. (Thank god) He doesn't have any power to push something like this. This is just crazy old man talk.
with due respect Skip---this is a perpetuated misconception that was promoted by the ESPN's of the world because they had their own agenda. There is a LOT of interest in baseball in Montreal and always has been. The old Montreal Royals was Jackie Robinson's first team in the I.L. The Expos drew very well. You can't look at the final years as any indicator whatsoever. The fans were told every year they were relocating.Star players were let go yearly. The owners were cheapskates (Brochu) and out and out liars (Loria) The Stadium was a dump. Plans were already drawn up for LaBatt Parc..in downtown Montreal. land was already ready to be acquired when all the stink hit the fan. Montreal had some of the loudest, most energetic fans in baseball. I attended games there for years. They idolized their stars and the stars knew it. The strike on 94 is what killed them. Everyone pretty much knows that.
The city drew two capacity crowds to the tired old Big Owe this spring for two 'meaningless' exhibition games. They are ready for baseball again...under the right circumstances.
The myth that Montreal is only a hockey town is just that for folks familiar with the history of  baseball there.

Tampa Bay is on as much of a bubble as Oakland for relocation. They have to have a new stadium; they aren't drawing flies and many insiders suggest that Bud would love to vacate that area. They aren't close to getting a new stadium. Moving a West team to the East?  If they want to do it, they will. But the best bet is still TB IMO.

Montreal would bring back a flavor to MLB that has been missing ever since they were hijacked.
but there is little doubt that Montreal is a baseball town that could comfortably support a real MLB team....with the proper owner (like Bell Canada) and a new downtown stadium. The Canadian economy and dollar is also favorable, where it wasn't for years.

Its also interesting to note that in the Expos final season, their biggest crowd was the final game....when teams know they are leaving, the final game is usually an empty house. The fans in Montreal, who weren't stupid, were dealt some very crappy hands towards the end. If they return, they will be a strong addition to MLB.
I'm familiar with the history of Montreal Baseball. The Royals were also the first professional team of Oriole announcer Rex Barney (they pronounced it "Ray Barn A" there). Rex and Jackie Robinson were rookies there together. Rex shook Jackie Robinson's hand on the first day and someone had to explain to him later why the rest of the team wouldn't talk to him afterwards. Rex said he was too dumb to know he was supposed to hate the black guy, so he kept being nice to Robinson anyway.

Anywho....

I'm not saying Montreal couldn't support another baseball team. I'm saying that no investor would take the chance to find out.

I know the 94 strike killed baseball in Montreal. That was 20 years ago. Baseball recovered in every other city in the league within 2 years. It never came back to Montreal. That's not an accident.

We've had crappy ownership here in Baltimore for roughly two decades. The team survived a 14 year losing stretch and still drew fans. We didn't draw a ton of fans, but we still outdrew Montreal which is at least twice the size of Baltimore.

So to say ownership stunk, which it did, was the cause of the team leaving is misguided. Yes, the ownership was deplorable. No doubt. But the fans not showing up is what caused the team to leave. The Royals, the Pirates, the Orioles, the Marlins, the Indians....all teams with crappy ownership and very long losing stretches in their history. All of them survived and continued to draw enough to stay afloat.

Montreal didn't. The fans abandoned the team. I can't blame the people. It was a god awful product on the field. They took a stand and said "This isn't worth my money". It's a noble cause.  And it's what caused the team to leave. If the stadium was sold out for all those years the team would never have left.

And any owner or potential owner looking to relocate a team is going to look at Montreal and say "What if my team goes into a 6 year slump? Will I be abandoned too and lose money?" When you have the only market in 40 years that has been abandoned by fans to the point where the team had to move to survive, no businessman is going to suggest that as a possibility for a new operation. It doesn't matter if the previous ownership drove the fans away. It doesn't matter why. All they will see is that the fan base there won't support a team in rough times. It's too big of a risk.

This isn't the 60's when teams were relocating regularly. The teams were worth $10 million back then and owned by families who enjoyed them as toys. Now teams are worth closer to a billion dollars and are major investments. They aren't subject to moving at the whim of an owner. They are subject to intense scrutiny about the risk/reward calculations and the overall profitability potential.

To be fair, there are examples where a team returns to an abandoned city and thrives.

Baltimore lost the Colts for the same reasons Montreal lost the Expos. People abandoned the team due to crappy ownership. (Very similar ownership for that matter). The Colts didn't leave Baltimore because Irsay was a bad owner. They left Baltimore because the people stopped spending money on the team. We were right to do so, but it cost us. Just like Montreal. And now the Ravens are the model example of attendance and fan loyalty in the NFL. And even then the main reason why other teams moving here never got traction before the Ravens was because the fans left when the team stunk. It made Baltimore a risk. Art Modell took a chance and it paid off. But many other investors didn't.

So yeah it can happen. I'm not even saying it wouldn't be successful in Montreal.

I'm just saying that a potential investor or current owner would look at Montreal and say "It failed once. Why would I risk my money to try it again?" It's too much of a risk for a billion dollar investment.  

The Tampa ownership isn't going to do it. The Oakland ownership isn't going to do it. Both franchises are run by cheapskates and neither one would take a chance on Montreal. There is no third team that has the possibility of doing it. All the other teams that don't draw very well today are in the middle of long leases with their cities.

You'd find no bigger supporter of the Rays moving to Montreal than me because I hate Tampa as a baseball town. But Tampa's problems are a crappy stadium. No one wants to go to the Trop because it's horrible. That city could support a team at a real stadium just fine.

I'd support it fully. I'm just saying it's not going to happen.


For POPPA! We won't stop!

Last edited 7/22/2014 4:15 PM by Skipjacks

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Posted: 7/22/2014 4:29 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


Skip--enjoyed your post. I just dont happen to agree with all of it. I lived in that community for several years and have had close ties to it. It isn't quite as cut and dried as you suggest. the fans stopped coming...yes...but none of the other cities you mention came close to the nonsense the Expos and their fans had to deal with. You can only kick a dog so many times before it either gets violent or it capitulates. Any new owners will go into it with a different tack. Heck, corporate sponsorship got so bad toward the end that the Expos weren't even on english radio. How can you survive without that basic means of communication. When every one of your stars were sold off of every single year, how does anyone expect fans to continue to come? When you have a horrible, poorly located stadium--that doesn't help. And the cherry on top was they were along with Minnesota scheduled to be contracted. (although Bud vehemently denies mentioning specific teams--it was a fact that everyone knew)
Yet when they made their last serious run for post season--before wild cards--and while they were owned (ridiculous) by their competitors---going into the last month, the fans returned en masse and the buzz was there.
When Gary Carter died, they did a tribute to him at a Canadiens game...everyone was decked out in Expos gear...Youppi was there too! It brought us all to tears. When Tim Raines returned to the Expos, they had to stop the game when he first came to bat, the CAPACITY crowd wouldn't stop cheering. When Rusty Staub returned...same thing. When manager Alou clumsily took Vlad Guerrero out of his last game as an Expo and didn't let him start the last inning in the field so the fans could give him one more rousing ovation, Alou became one of the least popular managers in team history. I was there the night there were over 50,000 in house for a key series against Philly in 1993--and Curtis Pride (profoundly deaf) hit a pinch double in the 8th inning to bring the Expos back into the game. As he stood at 2nd base, the stadium shook. the umpire had to motion to him to tip his cap because the crowd wouldn't stop roaring until he did.
I have more of these stories--I was present for a lot of them. It wasn't only that the fans stopped coming...no other team would have survived under similar circumstances. That scumbag, carpetbagger Jeff Loria buys the team, lies to the fans, when all the while, all he planned on doing was moving them to DC. Claude Brochu..instead of taking the luxury tax revenue he got and improving the team, simply pocketed the money.

It was a complete series of mis-steps that brought the team down. there was no reason for fans to show up at all...yet they did, whenever there appeared to be a slightest glimmer. Rogers bought the Jays. It has been suggested that Bell might be the owner of a team in Momtreal. they have the means to make it work. And I doubt they or any potential owner would go into it thinking that it would fail.

Truth be told, the team that should move based on fan support is Cleveland. Nobody is going to their games anymore. Yet for several years they sold the place out. some cities just ebb and flow.
Montreal was a unique situation, multi-layered and very sad. But the Expos have been gone long enough now for the fans to miss them. there is a buzz again.

I'd like to see it happen. don't know how long it will take. It won't be thru expansion. It will be a relocation. I have kept my tri-colored Expos cap in mothballs....just in case!
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Posted: 7/22/2014 4:56 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


Rogers bought the Blue Jays, who were a proven commodity in a city that strongly supported them. It was a no brainer investment.

A Montreal team is not a no brainer investment. It's a risk. Corporations like Bell don't take risks. They make calculated decisions with projected profitability that they are very convinced of the accuracy thereof.

Bell is also a publicly traded company on the NYSE. That means they have to answer to shareholders, a large portion of whom are outside of Montreal and neither know nor care about the history of baseball there.

In all circumstances putting a team in Montreal would be a money loser for a couple of years due to the cost of starting up operations. Publicly traded companies don't do that sort of thing in side ventures. They will do it for matters directly related to their core operations, but not side ventures. Their investors would scream bloody murder that Bell put a billion dollars into a baseball team with a  3-5 year profitability horizon instead of using that capital to upgrade their cell network infrastructure that could lure in new customers in a matter of weeks.

Plus, even if the two possible candidates to move were interested, they aren't for sale. The current ownership groups would move the teams to increase profitability or market value while retaining ownership. No one sells a team so it can move. That's bad business and the move would cost so much that it devalues the franchise. When you move to sell, you retain ownership until you make back the moving costs then you sell at a higher price once it's established. (Just like Art Modell did with the Ravens)

So Bell is not going to buy and move a baseball team. It's never going to happen.

The only two ways it would happen is if Montreal convinced an existing owner to move there for a long term relationship with the city. Or a rich local partnered with an existing team to move with a sale agreement 5-10 years down the road like Art Modell did with Steve Bischotti.

Bell would not participate in that kind of agreement as a minority partner for a number of years because publicly traded companies won't be minority partners in major ventures like that. It's giving away shareholder money to someone else's control, which is practically begging for prison.

The only way Bell, or another company like it, would ever buy a Montreal baseball team is if the team was already there and well established like the Blue Jays were in Toronto. Then it's an investment that immediately starts making its' money back.


For POPPA! We won't stop!
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Posted: 7/22/2014 6:52 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


the logic is accurate. Bell has however been mentioned as a possible lets say 'investor'. this surfaced several months ago. How much credence you put in it is of course totally speculation.
Interesting to note that Rogers really wants a team back in Montreal...as do the fans in Toronto. And also interesting to note that the Jays fell hard after their two World Series appearances. They struggled badly. In fact I don't know how far back up the ladder they have made it.
Guess we'll have to leave it at Montreal is probably the first choice for a relocation if it ever happens and it would be a great choice. If a loser city like WAshington can finally get their act together after failing miserably twice, Montreal could be a slam dunk second time around.

And just to sustain one other observation I made....what ARE they going to do about the Indians? That team is dying on the vine....have you seen the clips of the crowds this year? The place is more empty than a Miami Marlins game.
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Posted: 7/22/2014 9:14 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


Who would support Miami with that crook as an owner lol. You would have to be crazy.
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Posted: 7/22/2014 11:19 PM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


I had a real time deciding which guy I disliked more in this debacle...Selig or Loria.
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Posted: 7/23/2014 12:36 AM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 



insagt1 wrote: I had a real time deciding which guy I disliked more in this debacle...Selig or Loria.
Selig. hands down.

Loria is an ass but at least he only hurts his own fans. Selig hurts the game for everyone.


For POPPA! We won't stop!
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Posted: 7/23/2014 8:16 AM

Re: Selig Can Invision Montreal Returning To MLB. 


Selig had the power (but not the balls) to prevent 1994...and he didn't. Our local sports guy defends him to the death saying 'what could he have done'? And I say remember Kenesaw Mountain Landis? The commissioner could have stopped the nonsense, but Selig was still too much of an 'owner'.

Loria is just plain a creep. Its widely accepted that he would never ever be welcome in Quebec again. It hurt SO bad when that slime won a WS with the Marlins so soon after screwing MOntreal.
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