Also, San Diego State and Boise State vehemently denied an ESPN report that they had spoken to Mountain West officials about rejoining that conference. Boise State officials said they are committed to the BE and in fact, are trying to persuade BYU to join the BE.
    ESPN acts as if it has a vested interest in breaking up the football portion of the BE. The new Commissioner of the BE was previously CBS' VP of television rights, so ESPN may be afraid it will lose TV rights to CBS/CBSSN. Most weeks, CBS televises SEC games at 3:30 Eastern. If they secure BE rights, they might air BE games at Noon. That's just a surmise.
    If WP officials used as an excuse that they have been afraid we can't compete in the reconstituted BE, it has gotten less strong, and even Tulane, who we usually beat, has now joined.
    There are now 15 teams in the new Big East, but they expect to lose either UConn or Louisville to the ACC, leaving 14 actually. They say they'd like to grow to 16, with two 8-team divisions.They hope to add BYU so that STiLL leaves a slot open. Guess who is still welcome.

plain wrote: Also, San Diego State and Boise State vehemently denied an ESPN report that they had spoken to Mountain West officials about rejoining that conference. Boise State officials said they are committed to the BE and in fact, are trying to persuade BYU to join the BE.
    ESPN acts as if it has a vested interest in breaking up the football portion of the BE. The new Commissioner of the BE was previously CBS' VP of television rights, so ESPN may be afraid it will lose TV rights to CBS/CBSSN. Most weeks, CBS televises SEC games at 3:30 Eastern. If they secure BE rights, they might air BE games at Noon. That's just a surmise.
    If WP officials used as an excuse that they have been afraid we can't compete in the reconstituted BE, it has gotten less strong, and even Tulane, who we usually beat, has now joined.
    There are now 15 teams in the new Big East, but they expect to lose either UConn or Louisville to the ACC, leaving 14 actually. They say they'd like to grow to 16, with two 8-team divisions.They hope to add BYU so that STiLL leaves a slot open. Guess who is still welcome.

Just to clarify the count, before Rutgers left, the BE had 12 members lined up for next year and Navy would have been the 13th.  Assuming that UConn or Louisville departs for the ACC, the addition of Tulane and ECU will bring them back up to 13 members after Navy joins. 

If we were to join the Big East, it would almost be like rejoining Conference USA.  ECU and Tulane are the 8th and 9th teams to leave Conf USA for the Big East, including 7 of the teams that were part of Conference USA when we joined back in 1998; so the level of competition should be about the same as or slightly better than what we faced back then.  The only teams in the Big East that we didn't play in Conference USA would be Boise State, San Diego State, Navy, UCF, and SMU, which will probably be some of the better teams in the conference. 

I've said all along that at least for the next couple of years, there will be an opening for us in the BE anytime we want to accept the invitation.  If we decide to join, we will be locked into a schedule very similar to the one we faced in Conference USA.  In addition, the Army Navy game would become one of the normal conference games, and would have to be scheduled duiring the regular conference season rather than after regular conference play and championship games have completed as it is now.  We have to consider the effect that might have on the significance of the game and the impact that would have on the television audience.  Would we have to wait until 6 days before the game to find out what time it will be played as was the case with the Rutgers game this year?   If we're back to competing with games like Auburn Alabama and Michigan Ohio State, will potential recruits tune in to the Army Navy game?  If the network has to choose between broadcasting Army Navy or a game that will determine the Big East championship, which will it go for?

moved up, so as not to conflict with the BE championship game. The game might be played the post-Thanksgiving Day Saturday. It would be difficult but the respective Brigades could make it to Philadelphia after spending Turkey Day with their families. When this was proposed on this forum several years ago, some older posters wrote that it was accomplished in the day.

Who says it would have to be played in Phila or some other esoteric site?  Maybe it would be played on campus...just another conference game.   It might be very difficult to arrange any given yr with its probable shifting about in time, except on campus.  As a result we'd be in a crappy conference with no big venue for our biggest game of the year.  Oh hell, let's join the Patriot League.  Maybe we'd make it to the FCS playoffs...or maybe not.

Yes, it was accomplished that way for many years "back in the day." The detail to remember though is that the Corps did not go home for Thanksgiving. I'm not positive of the year that the game moved off Thanksgiving weekend, but I'd guess mid-80s. I remember cadets at our table for Thanksgiving in the late 70s for sure. Maybe I'll look it up later...

I assume Navy had similar academic and holiday schedules back then.

Beat 'em!

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--- plain wrote:

moved up, so as not to conflict with the BE championship game. The game might be played the post-Thanksgiving Day Saturday. It would be difficult but the respective Brigades could make it to Philadelphia after spending Turkey Day with their families. When this was proposed on this forum several years ago, some older posters wrote that it was accomplished in the day.

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armyfan wrote: Who says it would have to be played in Phila or some other esoteric site?  Maybe it would be played on campus...just another conference game.   It might be very difficult to arrange any given yr with its probable shifting about in time, except on campus.  As a result we'd be in a crappy conference with no big venue for our biggest game of the year.  Oh hell, let's join the Patriot League.  Maybe we'd make it to the FCS playoffs...or maybe not.

Do you even know what esoteric means? It has nothing to do with location.

You're acting like playing in Philly is some recent money-grabbing move that tramples on tradition. Army/Navy has been played in Philly for much of the last 100 years because Philly is basically equidistant from Annapolis and West Point, and it's usually played in an NFL stadium that holds 2 or 3 times as many people as NMCMS or Michie. I wouldn't want any part of the bidding war for A/N tickets in 35,000 seat NMCMS.

And Army/Navy is anything but "just another conference game," regardless of what conference affiliations turn out to be.

04USNA0302 wrote:

armyfan wrote: Who says it would have to be played in Phila or some other esoteric site?  Maybe it would be played on campus...just another conference game.   It might be very difficult to arrange any given yr with its probable shifting about in time, except on campus.  As a result we'd be in a crappy conference with no big venue for our biggest game of the year.  Oh hell, let's join the Patriot League.  Maybe we'd make it to the FCS playoffs...or maybe not.

Do you even know what esoteric means? It has nothing to do with location.

You're acting like playing in Philly is some recent money-grabbing move that tramples on tradition. Army/Navy has been played in Philly for much of the last 100 years because Philly is basically equidistant from Annapolis and West Point, and it's usually played in an NFL stadium that holds 2 or 3 times as many people as NMCMS or Michie. I wouldn't want any part of the bidding war for A/N tickets in 35,000 seat NMCMS.

And Army/Navy is anything but "just another conference game," regardless of what conference affiliations turn out to be.

I beg your pardon for offending your sensabilities as regards the English language.  But, as regards the Army/Navy game, precious few football fans save those of us on sites like this or graduates of one or the other really give a rat's rectum about the outcome.  It draws because it's as much a social event as it is an athletic contest.  I read on here recently, or on another site, that tickets are still readily available.  Why do you think the game has been relegated to the week following what has become the end of the regular season for FBS schools?

My guess it would be Villanova when they decide to move up to FBS.

Oh for Pete sakes. Play the A/N game to open the season while all the other teams are playing opening game stiffs.
With all this ridiculous conference talk which we should have no part of, play it like NASCAR does with their biggest event held first.
If Navy wants a conference, play them first as a OOC game for them. Then Navy can play their conference slate while we play our schedule which is fixed anyway thru the 2018 season.
All this  about playing Nevy last is just an excuse to join another conference and wind up dead last in it . The administration doesn't care in the first place.
Besides the A/N game would be played in September not December with warmer weather as a boost.

Indeed...there are plenty of 'big rivalry games' that get played within (or even without) conferences.  Hell, Ohio State-Michigan is now played before a conference championship game, as is Auburn-Alabama, and Notre Dame-USC gets two time slots, depending on where it's at (mid-season at ND, end-season at SC).  For 'neutral site' rivalry games, you have the Red River classic at the Texas State Fair between Oklahoma & Texas mid-season...

Army-Navy will continue to draw, whenever it's played, as long as it's played.  Having to have a 'weekend to itself' is a thing of the past.  Move it back to Thanksgiving Day weekend, and ship the Corps and Brigade to Philly for it.  If you hold it, they will watch.

In the meantime, there's  no reason to join any of these flailing conferences until things shake out.  I think that after all's said & done, the remnants of the Big East football will join with the ACC, and then you might have something...something better than Conference USA 2.0...

I don't think things will ever "shake out" anymore. It will be constant conference realignment that teams will chase the money to the conference that has the best TV money deal at the time.
That said, we do not need to get our pants on fire and run all over the place looking for the best deal.
With our extremely poor two decade record, the best move is no move but to just begin to improve the train wreck which is the football program. Just save all this current angst and put your efforts in getting a real competitive team who will be respected and not a laughingstock which we have become for such a long period of time now. We already have enough to worry about as fans although that may not apply to the current administration to my way of thinking.I really don't think they care that much one way or another these days.

Conference members pool all their bowl money to be shared equally even by teams not going bowling. Add in what will be considerable TV revenue, and Navy will be flush with cash while we won't have a pot to piss in. At that point any equivalence between the programs ends.

forces them to significantly improve their product. A similar move by WP officials would do the same. Let there be no fuzzy thinking on this. The status quo means Army is being left behind irrevocably, while joining the BE means a commitment to the program's renewal, with a huge increase in revenue. As more teams join conferences there will be no one credible to play anymore. If alumni think it's a good thing that America's pre-eminent military academy play a full Patriot/Ivy League schedule fine, but there is no indication the stark situation has been made that clear to them by the AD or other WP officials.

On the surface, your point seems pretty logical. But how do you explain Army's last foray into a conference, which most certainly did NOT result in a significantly improved product? I'm not sure the BE is the best answer, but it's certainly not the worst either.

I do agree that life as an independent will only get harder. The best evidence of that is the ND quasi-ACC deal. If it's too hard for them to stay out in the cold, we don't stand a chance. This may require us to look at scheduling A-N in a different way than we do now. Like all other changes at WP in the last 210 years, people will complain for awhile, hen they'll get over it, or forget when something else comes along.

Beat 'em!

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--- plain wrote:

forces them to significantly improve their product. A similar move by WP officials would do the same. Let there be no fuzzy thinking on this. The status quo means Army is being left behind irrevocably, while joining the BE means a commitment to the program's renewal, with a huge increase in revenue. As more teams join conferences there will be no one credible to play anymore. If alumni think it's a good thing that America's pre-eminent military academy play a full Patriot/Ivy League schedule fine, but there is no indication the stark situation has been made that clear to them by the AD or other WP officials.

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Well for one, Army's last time in a conference came after they had two winning seasons (10-2 in 1996 and 6-5 in 1993) in a 7 year stretch that included playing 3-4 FCS teams per year in addition to a bunch of MAC schools when that conference wasn't nearly as good as it is today. Not really an even comparison.

wp1994 wrote:
On the surface, your point seems pretty logical. But how do you explain Army's last foray into a conference, which most certainly did NOT result in a significantly improved product? I'm not sure the BE is the best answer, but it's certainly not the worst either.

I do agree that life as an independent will only get harder. The best evidence of that is the ND quasi-ACC deal. If it's too hard for them to stay out in the cold, we don't stand a chance. This may require us to look at scheduling A-N in a different way than we do now. Like all other changes at WP in the last 210 years, people will complain for awhile, hen they'll get over it, or forget when something else comes along.

Beat 'em!

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--- plain wrote:

forces them to significantly improve their product. A similar move by WP officials would do the same. Let there be no fuzzy thinking on this. The status quo means Army is being left behind irrevocably, while joining the BE means a commitment to the program's renewal, with a huge increase in revenue. As more teams join conferences there will be no one credible to play anymore. If alumni think it's a good thing that America's pre-eminent military academy play a full Patriot/Ivy League schedule fine, but there is no indication the stark situation has been made that clear to them by the AD or other WP officials.

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I'm not sure which point you're trying to make. My point was that we didn't get better in C-USA. So, entering a conference after a decade long losing streak (win one winnin season in 2010) does not give me any warm, fuzzy hopes either. We might be making the same point, but I'm not really sure.

Beat 'em!

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--- 04USNA0302 wrote:

Well for one, Army's last time in a conference came after they had two winning seasons (10-2 in 1996 and 6-5 in 1993) in a 7 year stretch that included playing 3-4 FCS teams per year in addition to a bunch of MAC schools when that conference wasn't nearly as good as it is today. Not really an even comparison.

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I was just pointing out that Army's problems in 1998 don't have any relation to Navy's plan to join the BE, or Army potentially joining a conference in the next few years.

Army didn't get better in CUSA, but it didn't really get worse either when you look at the differences in the schedules they had to start playing...they couldn't get 3-4 likely wins by scheduling FCS teams anymore. Plus a lot of Army's struggles in the CUSA period were due to shuffling through a few ineffective coaches.

For comparison's sake, if Navy had joined a conference after its good year in 1996, it probably would have struggled too because that was right about the time that Weatherbie ran off all his good assistants. But it wouldn't (hypothetically) make sense to blame the conference move for Navy going downhill, since Navy was going to have problems in or out of the conference. I think Army was in a similar situation after 1996...everything came together for one great season which was not likely to happen again.

I have an ATTITUDE.
I remember C-USA. I remember bad memories of that bad decision.
I have no desire to see that happen again.
I think the administration feels the same as I do. I believe they know exactly how poor this program is and feel that conference affiliation will not help to improve the product.
Sure, it will bring in some cash, but so what? The team will not get better because of it. That is my concern only.
I'll leave the revenue problems to them.

A lot of what made the CUSA venture a failure was that Army, at that time, did commit to improving the program but went about it all wrong.....

Hiring Greenspan and him hiring Berry was supposed to be the answer to all the problems. TB was a young, innovative, charismatic, coach that had had recent success at ISU. He was going to junk the status quo and bring Army Football into the 21st century. Ringing any bells?

The problem was that, as we all know, it didn't work. Wrong guy, wrong ideas, wrong all around. it wasn't CUSA that led us to where we find ourselves today, it was a series of wrong decisions on the part of our own administration(s) that got us to this juncture....

Army should have been competitive in that league. I think that having that as a selling point helped in recruiting as Berry did well in that part.....

A lot of what I read here seems to blame membership in CUSA for Army's failures when IMO it was the failure of leadership within the administration itself that sent us down the road to ruin.....

Could be that what is going on now is that the current bosses are reticent to make any sort of commitment based on the CUSA experience. Wrong again! They will make an error of ommision to prevent an error of commision. I don't think that the CUSA experience is an applicable example to hold forth in the current situation.....