Ok well it's a long time till next season so we need something to occupy our time.  I decided to put together a list of all the players currently on the 40 man roster that solely the team can decide on meaning free agents are gone because their salary can't really be predicted on the open market.  Players who are out of options will have to make the team but arbitration is up to you if you want to put them on the team or not.  Also the salary listed is what the Pirates are responsible for not the players actual salary.

Wandy Rodriguez - 8.5 million
AJ Burnett - 8 million
Clint Barmes - 5.5 million
Andrew McCutchen - 4.7 million
Jose Tabata - 1.1 million
Pedro Alvarez - 700 K
Travis Snider - 500 K
Bryan Morris - 500 K

These 8 players all have guaranteed contracts and/or are out of options so it's very unlikely for them to not make the team next year. Lets assume these players are on the team next year and no matter what they have a spot on the team. The total payroll is 29.5 million.  Assuming we are working with a 65 million dollar payroll for next season that leaves you 35.5 million for the remaining 17 players.  

You don't need to pick 17 guys from this list and any money available gets used in free agency.  You can pick all 17 or you can take 10 and leave the rest for free agency.  I have posted the likely 2013 salaries to alter the payroll.  You also need to have some sort of roster management involved.  You can't create a 25 man roster with 19 pitchers on it.  Here are the guys to pick from.


Joel Hanrahan - 7.5 million
Garrett Jones - 4.5 million
Jeff Karstens - 4 million
Rod Barajas - 3.5 million
James McDonald - 2.5 million
Neil Walker - 2.5 million
Charlie Morton - 2 million
Chris Resop - 1.5 million
Gaby Sanchez - 1.25 million
Rick Vanden Hurk - 500 K
Jeff Clement - 500 K
Chris Leroux - 500 K
Michael McKenry - 500 K
Josh Harrison - 500 K
Alex Presley - 500 K
Tony Watson - 500 K
Yamaico Navarro - 500 K
Jared Hughes - 500 K
Matt Hague - 500 K
Gustavo Nunez - 500 K
Chase D'Arnaud - 500 K
Eric Fryer - 500 K
Brock Holt - 500 K
Jeff Locke - 500 K
Starling Marte - 500 K
Daniel McCutchen - 500 K
Kyle McPherson - 500 K
Jordy Mercer - 500 K
Oscar Tejada - 500 K
Duke Welker - 500 K
Justin Wilson - 500 K

So here is my list

Wandy Rodriguez - 8.5 million
AJ Burnett - 8 million
Clint Barmes - 5.5 million
Andrew McCutchen - 4.7 million
Jose Tabata - 1.1 million
Pedro Alvarez - 700 K
Travis Snider - 500 K
Bryan Morris - 500 K


Now the players I would pick would be the following

Garrett Jones - 4.5 million
James McDonald - 2.5 million
Neil Walker - 2.5 million
Gaby Sanchez - 1.25 million
Michael McKenry - 500 K
Tony Watson - 500 K
Yamaico Navarro - 500 K
Jared Hughes - 500 K
Jeff Locke - 500 K
Starling Marte - 500 K
Kyle McPherson - 500 K
Jordy Mercer - 500 K
Justin Wilson - 500 K

So that is 13 out of the 17 players at a total cost of 15.25 million. That gives me 20.25 million available to spend on 4 players in free agency. I would need 1 catcher, 3 pitchers

That's not bad, katoy.  Hard for me to disagree with any of your picks other than Yamaico Navarro.  I never understood the love some people here had for him, and I still don't.  So I would be looking to bring back Josh Harrison rather than Navarro for sure.  


$20.25 million for four free agent signings doesn't sound like a lot, but it IS a lot if, say, two of the pitchers were veteran setup relievers who signed for $4.25 million between them.  That leaves $16 million for a catcher and a starting pitcher.  How about $6 million for Russell Martin for one year, and $10 million for a starting pitcher, with the proviso that he could sign for more than one year at that same rate, ie, 3 years, $30 million.

I've seen enough Josh Harrison. I've never understood the love for him. His ceiling is fringe at best. Navarro still has MLB regular upside and had a good year in AAA and he's only 24.

williamjpellas wrote: That's not bad, katoy.  Hard for me to disagree with any of your picks other than Yamaico Navarro.  I never understood the love some people here had for him, and I still don't.  So I would be looking to bring back Josh Harrison rather than Navarro for sure.  


$20.25 million for four free agent signings doesn't sound like a lot, but it IS a lot if, say, two of the pitchers were veteran setup relievers who signed for $4.25 million between them.  That leaves $16 million for a catcher and a starting pitcher.  How about $6 million for Russell Martin for one year, and $10 million for a starting pitcher, with the proviso that he could sign for more than one year at that same rate, ie, 3 years, $30 million.

How about you bring up Tony Sanchez and 2 young bullpen arms and spend every other penny on either Tulowitski or Ryan Howard? 

Granted, it's not like they'd come at no cost, but both of their contracts are looking pretty bad at the moment (Tulo's because he can't stay healthy and Howard's because he just really hasn't been the same since his injury)

Imagine a 3-4-5 of Cutch, Tulo and Pedro?!

You could get Ryan Howard for free I bet but his contract is horrible. I like the idea of Tulo however. The problem is he would cost a lot and if you acquire him you need to keep Taillon and Cole because it will be tough to sign free agent pitching because of the Tulo contract.

The Pirates have enough to acquire Tulo though even without Cole and Taillon. Barmes would have to go the other way but his salary is small relatively speaking. Alex Presley would appeal to them because they could then move Dexter Fowler for more pitching. If I'm the Rockies and the Pirates ask me about Tulo I would listen if I can have my picks from the lower levels. Give me Barmes, Presley, Jeff Locke to help me now and add Luis Heredia, Gregory Polanco, Dickerson and Glasnow. That is a huge price to pay. If I'm the Pirates I just wouldn't do it though. You're better off with a defense first shortstop at 500K like Mercer who can still hit league average for the position then the cost of salary and prospects.

williamjpellas wrote: That's not bad, katoy.  Hard for me to disagree with any of your picks other than Yamaico Navarro.  I never understood the love some people here had for him, and I still don't.  So I would be looking to bring back Josh Harrison rather than Navarro for sure.  

Navarro has a lot of upside and unlike Harrison is capable of playing the outfield.  He's a much better fit in the utility role and in terms of offensive upside he has a much higher one than Harrison.  He also draws walks and has double digit home run power.  He's had a lot of injuries the last few years.  I would bet he easily tops Harrisons numbers if he got 276 plate appearances.  In my opinion he's a borderline starter and would be a utility force.  He had a .189 BABIP last season.  He's put up multiple ISO in the minors over .200 and his numbers in AAA last season were excellent at .279/.366/.491  I don't think he will put up that kind of line but I certainly think he is capable of .275/.345/.430 with his skill set

I didn't realize that Navarro's Triple-A OPS was over .800.  Particularly in the more pitcher-friendly International League, where he plays, that is a good sign.  Because of the generally better pitching and less-favorable-to-hitting ballparks in the IL, numbers posted by hitters in that league tend to fluctuate a lot less relative to what they do in the majors than numbers posted by hitters in the launching pad Pacific Coast League.  Given Harrison's obvious inability to play any positions besides second and third, I'd have no problem with an open competition in spring training next year.  At this point you'd think the two backup utility infielders would be Harrison and Brock Holt, but Holt is another one who really can't legitimately play many positions.  So, maybe Navarro gets in after all.

williamjpellas wrote: How about you bring up Tony Sanchez and 2 young bullpen arms and spend every other penny on either Tulowitski or Ryan Howard?  

Granted, it's not like they'd come at no cost, but both of their contracts are looking pretty bad at the moment (Tulo's because he can't stay healthy and Howard's because he just really hasn't been the same since his injury)

Imagine a 3-4-5 of Cutch, Tulo and Pedro?!


This is very definitely another strategy the front office could pursue.  It's not a bad idea.  Sanchez, whose defense and game calling are big league ready but whose hitting is substandard, would still probably make a really good backup or junior platoon guy (the one who gets fewer at bats) as long as he's not totally helpless with a bat in his hands.  Meanwhile we have Bryan Morris, who could easily be one of the "2 young bullpen arms".  Hold an open audition in spring training for the other spot, and take the money saved to go get a true difference maker for the lineup.  I like it!  

The Phillies would have to swallow a lot of salary and still take little to no compensation for Howard, much like the Burnett deal.  They're stuck with him, and I think they're happy to be.  They hold him in high reguard... for some reason.

I just think the Phillies don't want to alienate the player. Just like with Barry Zito in San Francisco you gain nothing by admitting the contract is horrible. You don't need to though because everyone knows it as well. I'm sure they would love to move him if a team would take him but as you said they would have to eat an insane amount of the contract. The reality is he's probably stuck there.

I think this is where denial comes in. The hope is that Howard will be able to raise his production to a level that would make him attractive to other teams. I'll never say never because Vernon Wells was about as unmovable a contract as I could imagine in baseball. Alex Anthropolis is the GM of the decade simply for making that move possible. It's an unlikely scenario though to imagine him going anywhere. He's crossed the dangerous area into a negative value player.

katoy2j wrote: I just think the Phillies don't want to alienate the player. Just like with Barry Zito in San Francisco you gain nothing by admitting the contract is horrible. You don't need to though because everyone knows it as well. I'm sure they would love to move him if a team would take him but as you said they would have to eat an insane amount of the contract. The reality is he's probably stuck there.

I think this is where denial comes in. The hope is that Howard will be able to raise his production to a level that would make him attractive to other teams. I'll never say never because Vernon Wells was about as unmovable a contract as I could imagine in baseball. Alex Anthropolis is the GM of the decade simply for making that move possible. It's an unlikely scenario though to imagine him going anywhere. He's crossed the dangerous area into a negative value player.

I can't speak for San Francisco and Zito because I know nothing about the situation, but what I do know is that Ryan Howard is Rueben Amaro's "boy" to the end.  Amaro, while an assistant GM, was a major cog in the drafting of Howard in '01.  Amaro will never let Howard leave the Phillies prior to retirement.

I'd go with these 15.  It doesn't matter which other ten you pick.  You end up with the same results.  Assuming Hanrahan is not an option.  Ideally you trade as many of the others as you can in 3 for 1 deals or a roster clearing 6 for 1 (essentially) Phil Garner type trade.    

1.   Wandy Rodriguez - 8.5 million
2.   AJ Burnett - 8 million
3.   Andrew McCutchen - 4.7 million
4.   Garrett Jones - 4.5 million
5.   James McDonald - 2.5 million
6.   Neil Walker - 2.5 million
7.   Pedro Alvarez - 700 K
8.   Bryan Morris - 500 K
9.   Michael McKenry - 500 K
10. Tony Watson - 500 K
11. Jared Hughes - 500 K
12. Starling Marte - 500 K
13. Kyle McPherson - 500 K
14. Jordy Mercer - 500 K
15. Justin Wilson - 500 K

• March 15, 1977: Phil Garner traded by the Oakland Athletics with Chris Batton and Tommy Helms to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Tony Armas, Doug Bair, Dave Giusti, Rick Langford, Doc Medich and Mitchell Page.

The A's essentialy just gave Helms back to us.

• December 12, 1975: Traded by the Houston Astros to the Pittsburgh Pirates for a player to be named later. The Pittsburgh Pirates sent Art Howe (January 6, 1976) to the Houston Astros to complete the trade.
• November 5, 1976: Purchased by the Oakland Athletics from the Pittsburgh Pirates.
• March 15, 1977: Traded by the Oakland Athletics with Chris Batton and Phil Garner to the Pittsburgh Pirates for Tony Armas, Doug Bair, Dave Giusti, Rick Langford, Doc Medich and Mitchell Page.

TBayXXXVII wrote:

williamjpellas wrote: How about you bring up Tony Sanchez and 2 young bullpen arms and spend every other penny on either Tulowitski or Ryan Howard?  

Granted, it's not like they'd come at no cost, but both of their contracts are looking pretty bad at the moment (Tulo's because he can't stay healthy and Howard's because he just really hasn't been the same since his injury)

Imagine a 3-4-5 of Cutch, Tulo and Pedro?!


This is very definitely another strategy the front office could pursue.  It's not a bad idea.  Sanchez, whose defense and game calling are big league ready but whose hitting is substandard, would still probably make a really good backup or junior platoon guy (the one who gets fewer at bats) as long as he's not totally helpless with a bat in his hands.  Meanwhile we have Bryan Morris, who could easily be one of the "2 young bullpen arms".  Hold an open audition in spring training for the other spot, and take the money saved to go get a true difference maker for the lineup.  I like it!  

The Phillies would have to swallow a lot of salary and still take little to no compensation for Howard, much like the Burnett deal.  They're stuck with him, and I think they're happy to be.  They hold him in high reguard... for some reason.

I live in Philadelphia.  Phillies fans are the most delusional fans I have ever witnessed.  They refuse to believe that their players just don't have it anymore.  

Here are common beliefs of Phillies fans:

• Utley, Howard, Rollins, Halladay, and Lee are all in their prime.  In reality, all players are breaking down and absolutely on the downsides of their career.
• Papelbon was a good signing.  Terrible contract.
• Victorino was a top-of-the-line CF.  Hilarious.
• Charlie Manuel is an amazing manager.  Has anyone ever heard him speak?  It's amazing that he has a job at all.  He used to have a roster loaded with talent, so they did great.  Now he doesn't, so the team sucks.  Doesn't seem like an amazing manager.
• Ruben Amaro Jr. is the best GM in baseball.  The guy gave out terrible contracts, continues to sign over-the-hill veterans to fill needs, and emptied the farm system in trades.
• Citizens Bank Park is the best ball park in all of baseball.  I guess they have never left Philadelphia.

My favorite thing from this season that I heard a Phillies fan say is, "We should have traded Victorino for Josh Hamilton.  He would have taken us over the hump and who wouldn't want Victorino on their team?"  I'm sure the Rangers would have made that deal.

SteelRun wrote:

TBayXXXVII wrote:

williamjpellas wrote: How about you bring up Tony Sanchez and 2 young bullpen arms and spend every other penny on either Tulowitski or Ryan Howard?  

Granted, it's not like they'd come at no cost, but both of their contracts are looking pretty bad at the moment (Tulo's because he can't stay healthy and Howard's because he just really hasn't been the same since his injury)

Imagine a 3-4-5 of Cutch, Tulo and Pedro?!


This is very definitely another strategy the front office could pursue.  It's not a bad idea.  Sanchez, whose defense and game calling are big league ready but whose hitting is substandard, would still probably make a really good backup or junior platoon guy (the one who gets fewer at bats) as long as he's not totally helpless with a bat in his hands.  Meanwhile we have Bryan Morris, who could easily be one of the "2 young bullpen arms".  Hold an open audition in spring training for the other spot, and take the money saved to go get a true difference maker for the lineup.  I like it!  

The Phillies would have to swallow a lot of salary and still take little to no compensation for Howard, much like the Burnett deal.  They're stuck with him, and I think they're happy to be.  They hold him in high reguard... for some reason.

I live in Philadelphia.  Phillies fans are the most delusional fans I have ever witnessed.  They refuse to believe that their players just don't have it anymore.  

Here are common beliefs of Phillies fans:

• Utley, Howard, Rollins, Halladay, and Lee are all in their prime.  In reality, all players are breaking down and absolutely on the downsides of their career.
• Papelbon was a good signing.  Terrible contract.
• Victorino was a top-of-the-line CF.  Hilarious.
• Charlie Manuel is an amazing manager.  Has anyone ever heard him speak?  It's amazing that he has a job at all.  He used to have a roster loaded with talent, so they did great.  Now he doesn't, so the team sucks.  Doesn't seem like an amazing manager.
• Ruben Amaro Jr. is the best GM in baseball.  The guy gave out terrible contracts, continues to sign over-the-hill veterans to fill needs, and emptied the farm system in trades.
• Citizens Bank Park is the best ball park in all of baseball.  I guess they have never left Philadelphia.

My favorite thing from this season that I heard a Phillies fan say is, "We should have traded Victorino for Josh Hamilton.  He would have taken us over the hump and who wouldn't want Victorino on their team?"  I'm sure the Rangers would have made that deal.

Philly is full of extremists.  Either the player is great and a hall of famer... or he stinks and needs to be cut.

katoy -- you're a Blue Jays guy.  Any chance they would be willing to talk trade for J.P. Arencibia, given that Travis d'Arnaud is his heir apparent?

Yeah they would trade Arencibia but I would much rather have D'Arnaud. Arencibia can hit homers but doesn't draw walks, doesn't hit for average and runs poorly. He's basically Rod Barajas 10 years ago. I would rather have D'Arnaud he's a guy who could be like Buster Posey this season. The talent is there for him to be a .300 hitter with 20 homers. Considering Posey is going to win the NL MVP that is the type of player I would be trying to acquire.

katoy2j wrote: Yeah they would trade Arencibia but I would much rather have D'Arnaud. Arencibia can hit homers but doesn't draw walks, doesn't hit for average and runs poorly. He's basically Rod Barajas 10 years ago. I would rather have D'Arnaud he's a guy who could be like Buster Posey this season. The talent is there for him to be a .300 hitter with 20 homers. Considering Posey is going to win the NL MVP that is the type of player I would be trying to acquire.

Of course you'd rather have D'Arnaud.   Anyone would.

But if the goal is to acquire someone to step in for a relatively short time while Sanchez continues to season, my question was more along the lines of "could Arencibia play this role."  Is he a good defensive catcher?

Getting D'Arnaud would require a trade of significant resources, and would be an admission that Sanchez isn't our catcher of the future.  At most, Sanchez would be the backup of the future.  I don't see the organization doing that.

You won't get Arencibia cheap. He's going to make the league minimum next year and has 4 years of club control left. In any trade with Toronto the only names they will have interest in is Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Starling Marte, James McDonald, Garrett Jones, Pedro Alvare, AJ Burnett, Jameson Taillon, Gerrit Cole, Luis Heredia, Alen Hanson, Gregory Polanco and Wandy Rodriguez. If you aren't including one of those names you won't get either of those players.

katoy2j wrote: You won't get Arencibia cheap. He's going to make the league minimum next year and has 4 years of club control left. In any trade with Toronto the only names they will have interest in is Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Starling Marte, James McDonald, Garrett Jones, Pedro Alvare, AJ Burnett, Jameson Taillon, Gerrit Cole, Luis Heredia, Alen Hanson, Gregory Polanco and Wandy Rodriguez. If you aren't including one of those names you won't get either of those players.

OK