Chase d’Arnaud stolen base king

I really liked D'Arnaud. The concussion he suffered early on really hurt him to start the year and he has had to dig himself out of quite a hole.

I don't think D'Arnaud can be a starter at shortstop but I would like to see him as our full time second baseman. He would make a pretty good leadoff hitter. He steals bases at a very good clip 119 SB/21 CS in the minors, 12 SB/2 CS in the majors. That is an 85% success rate at both levels.

He also can take a walk as he has drawn one over 10% of the time in his time in the minors.

The strikeouts are a problem but if he can cut them down I would rather have D'Arnaud playing second then Walker. D'Arnaud has upside. I would shop Walker to upgrade the offense and take my chances with D'Arnaud as the starter. If he struggles you can still fall back on Mercer or Harrison for the position. If you're unhappy with any of the guys at the end of the year you can sign a Kelly Johnson as a free agent.

San Diego has a need at second base and Headley is expendable. I wonder if they would want Walker? He's younger and cheaper then Headley and would have two more years of control. I would be fine making that move and taking my chances at second base with the guys in AAA or Harrison.

katoy2j wrote: I really liked D'Arnaud. The concussion he suffered early on really hurt him to start the year and he has had to dig himself out of quite a hole.

I don't think D'Arnaud can be a starter at shortstop but I would like to see him as our full time second baseman. He would make a pretty good leadoff hitter. He steals bases at a very good clip 119 SB/21 CS in the minors, 12 SB/2 CS in the majors. That is an 85% success rate at both levels.

He also can take a walk as he has drawn one over 10% of the time in his time in the minors.

The strikeouts are a problem but if he can cut them down I would rather have D'Arnaud playing second then Walker. D'Arnaud has upside. I would shop Walker to upgrade the offense and take my chances with D'Arnaud as the starter. If he struggles you can still fall back on Mercer or Harrison for the position. If you're unhappy with any of the guys at the end of the year you can sign a Kelly Johnson as a free agent.

San Diego has a need at second base and Headley is expendable. I wonder if they would want Walker? He's younger and cheaper then Headley and would have two more years of control. I would be fine making that move and taking my chances at second base with the guys in AAA or Harrison.

I like chase as well. Katoy what do think his ceiling is? I think he can be a better defensive second basemen the Walker and obviously much more dangerous on the bases with his speed. I believe Walker is what he is. chase wouldn't be a superstar but an upgrade at second base based on his speed alone.

katoy2j wrote: I really liked D'Arnaud. The concussion he suffered early on really hurt him to start the year and he has had to dig himself out of quite a hole.

I don't think D'Arnaud can be a starter at shortstop but I would like to see him as our full time second baseman. He would make a pretty good leadoff hitter. He steals bases at a very good clip 119 SB/21 CS in the minors, 12 SB/2 CS in the majors. That is an 85% success rate at both levels.

He also can take a walk as he has drawn one over 10% of the time in his time in the minors.

The strikeouts are a problem but if he can cut them down I would rather have D'Arnaud playing second then Walker. D'Arnaud has upside. I would shop Walker to upgrade the offense and take my chances with D'Arnaud as the starter. If he struggles you can still fall back on Mercer or Harrison for the position. If you're unhappy with any of the guys at the end of the year you can sign a Kelly Johnson as a free agent.

San Diego has a need at second base and Headley is expendable. I wonder if they would want Walker? He's younger and cheaper then Headley and would have two more years of control. I would be fine making that move and taking my chances at second base with the guys in AAA or Harrison.

Hadn't thought about shipping Walker in a deal for Headley, but that is a great idea.  You don't lose much (if anything) with a Harrison, D'Arnaud, or Mercer playing second, but you gain a ton obtaining Headley.

I've been an advocate for looking to upgrade Walker at 2nd base, he is a .260 hitting singles hitter that plays average (at best) defense.  At least D'Arnaud would have an upside of plus defense and speed from the 2nd base position, Mercer has the upside of power/defense, and Harrison could basicaly clone Walker's production with less walks but more hits.

If Walker is so bad why would San Diego want him in return for Headley.

I agree with you both, that Walker is playing himself out of a regular position, but then by the same token, don't you think San Diego realizes his limitations also?

panthers2533 wrote: If Walker is so bad why would San Diego want him in return for Headley.

I agree with you both, that Walker is playing himself out of a regular position, but then by the same token, don't you think San Diego realizes his limitations also?

They need a second baseman and he has two more years of control than Headley has.  Obviously it wouldn't be Walker for Headley straight up, it would be Walker and a prospect for Headley so the Padres would get a second baseman that they need plus a prospect to help them in the near future.  I actually think this trade idea could happen, but the Pirates would never do it because Hurdle would blow a gasket over Huntington trading one of his boys. (and the fans would go crazy for trading the "Pittsburgh kid" lol).

A D'arnoud / Ngoepe platoon in a couple yrs would be awesome....unlikely though.

d'Arnaud probably doesn't hit enough to make it as a starter at the major league level.

This year he is hitting just .203 at AAA (.602 OPS)

Last year he hit .217 in 148 at bats in Pittsburgh (.528 OPS)



His fielding isn't very good either.  He committed 9 errors in 138 chances in Pittsburgh last year, and he leads Indy with 10 errors already this year.

He can probably stick in the majors as a utility guy.  And he was one of Hurdle's "favorites" last year, so he has that going for him.

I think you "could" possibly get Headley for Walker straight up.

Walker is under control for 4 more seasons while Headley is under control for only 2 more seasons. That is a lot of value swinging towards the Padres favour.

It depends how the Padres view Walker internally. If they see him as a guy they can buy low on, save some money over Headley and upgrade a position of need. Headley is a nice player for them but he is blocking the teams top prospect.

It is unlikely to happen though because I doubt the Pirates would shop Walker.

I'm ok with not landing Headley though as I hope we can target Edwin Encarnacion as a free agent.

As for what D'Arnaud's upside is?

At the high end in terms of ceiling I could see him being a .290/.380/.450 player. That would be a guy who hits 40 doubles and 10 homers a year.

More likely though .260/.350/.400

Plus if he gets everyday at bats he's going to steal 40 bases and as you said he would be a defensive upgrade over Walker.

As said though the biggest issue will be cutting down the strikeouts. As he does that he will increase his average simply by legging out more infield hits with his speed. He's a better version of Josh Harrison because he knows how to take a walk.

gr1111 wrote: d'Arnaud probably doesn't hit enough to make it as a starter at the major league level.

This year he is hitting just .203 at AAA (.602 OPS)

Last year he hit .217 in 148 at bats in Pittsburgh (.528 OPS)



His fielding isn't very good either.  He committed 9 errors in 138 chances in Pittsburgh last year, and he leads Indy with 10 errors already this year.

He can probably stick in the majors as a utility guy.  And he was one of Hurdle's "favorites" last year, so he has that going for him.

I'm not impressed with him either.  He is extremely athletic, so there is definitely upside, but his ab's are ugly, (I watch a fair amount of Indy and Altoona games).

BAMSTEELERFAN wrote:

gr1111 wrote: d'Arnaud probably doesn't hit enough to make it as a starter at the major league level.

This year he is hitting just .203 at AAA (.602 OPS)

Last year he hit .217 in 148 at bats in Pittsburgh (.528 OPS)



His fielding isn't very good either.  He committed 9 errors in 138 chances in Pittsburgh last year, and he leads Indy with 10 errors already this year.

He can probably stick in the majors as a utility guy.  And he was one of Hurdle's "favorites" last year, so he has that going for him.

I'm not impressed with him either.  He is extremely athletic, so there is definitely upside, but his ab's are ugly, (I watch a fair amount of Indy and Altoona games).

As of right now, he is certainly not an upgrade over Walker.  He might be in 2 years, but he's not now and it doesn't look like he'll be next year.  If it's expected that he could be a time splitter, then he isn't an all an upgrade over Walker.  Walker is a legitimate starter in the majors.  He may not be great, but he's good enough.

TBayXXXVII wrote:

BAMSTEELERFAN wrote:

gr1111 wrote: d'Arnaud probably doesn't hit enough to make it as a starter at the major league level.

This year he is hitting just .203 at AAA (.602 OPS)

Last year he hit .217 in 148 at bats in Pittsburgh (.528 OPS)



His fielding isn't very good either.  He committed 9 errors in 138 chances in Pittsburgh last year, and he leads Indy with 10 errors already this year.

He can probably stick in the majors as a utility guy.  And he was one of Hurdle's "favorites" last year, so he has that going for him.

I'm not impressed with him either.  He is extremely athletic, so there is definitely upside, but his ab's are ugly, (I watch a fair amount of Indy and Altoona games).

As of right now, he is certainly not an upgrade over Walker.  He might be in 2 years, but he's not now and it doesn't look like he'll be next year.  If it's expected that he could be a time splitter, then he isn't an all an upgrade over Walker.  Walker is a legitimate starter in the majors.  He may not be great, but he's good enough.

I disagree, I think Walker is a below average regular second baseman.  Harrison and Mercer (and I believe D'Arnaud also) could give you at least equal performance.  As bad as D'Arnaud has been at the plate, his OBP is within range of Neil Walker's plus he gives you the bonus of speed and better defense.  D'Arnaud has even shown more power than Walker this season suprisingly, so yes, I'd take D'Arnaud over Walker.  And I'd definitely take Mercer over Walker, and Harrison over Walker if that means Walker has been traded for Headley.

It's a long ways away, but we could probably figure Alan Hansen will be the eventual replacement of all these guys.  Never thought about trading Walker, interesting thought.  I don't think those who run this team are willing to part with the hometown player, but then again he was drafted under prior management.

cferrel3 wrote:

TBayXXXVII wrote:

BAMSTEELERFAN wrote:

gr1111 wrote: d'Arnaud probably doesn't hit enough to make it as a starter at the major league level.

This year he is hitting just .203 at AAA (.602 OPS)

Last year he hit .217 in 148 at bats in Pittsburgh (.528 OPS)



His fielding isn't very good either.  He committed 9 errors in 138 chances in Pittsburgh last year, and he leads Indy with 10 errors already this year.

He can probably stick in the majors as a utility guy.  And he was one of Hurdle's "favorites" last year, so he has that going for him.

I'm not impressed with him either.  He is extremely athletic, so there is definitely upside, but his ab's are ugly, (I watch a fair amount of Indy and Altoona games).

As of right now, he is certainly not an upgrade over Walker.  He might be in 2 years, but he's not now and it doesn't look like he'll be next year.  If it's expected that he could be a time splitter, then he isn't an all an upgrade over Walker.  Walker is a legitimate starter in the majors.  He may not be great, but he's good enough.

I disagree, I think Walker is a below average regular second baseman.  Harrison and Mercer (and I believe D'Arnaud also) could give you at least equal performance.  As bad as D'Arnaud has been at the plate, his OBP is within range of Neil Walker's plus he gives you the bonus of speed and better defense.  D'Arnaud has even shown more power than Walker this season suprisingly, so yes, I'd take D'Arnaud over Walker.  And I'd definitely take Mercer over Walker, and Harrison over Walker if that means Walker has been traded for Headley.

For me, Walker needs to carry an .800ish OPS to be a long term consideration.  He is no where close.  I think he is about average defensively, (without looking at the numbers, just my eyes) we can get that in a lot of places and still gain a plus tool, (i.e. speed).  I would take Mercer over Walker right now.  I think Mercer will run into a few more HR and hit for a similar average with superior defense.

I don't know that he wouldn't be an upgrade over Walker right now.

His defense would certainly be better. He's playing as a shortstop in the minors which was always a reach for him. Playing a more challenging position then you're capable of usually leads to struggles at the plate plus this season has been a bit of a write off because of getting hit in the head and suffering a concussion that caused him to miss a lot of the season. If he moved to second base which is more of his natural position you would see much stronger defensive results.

He takes a lot of walks. Even with a .203 batting average his OBP is sitting at .304. Obviously the batting average needs to come up and that will also raise the OBP and OPS. Walker is only posting a .317 OBP so the difference is pretty small.

Walker has the advantage in power but his power has also been nearly non existent this year so I'm not sure how much of an advantage it is.

D'Arnaud has a huge advantage on the bases though. He could be a 40 stolen base guy with ease. To his credit Walker has been an effective base stealer thus far this season but he doesn't have a track record that would make you think it was sustainable. I'm certainly not advocating D'Arnaud take Walkers spot in the near future just that he wouldn't be much of a downgrade and with what he brings in defense and speed I think he would be an upgrade. It's not going to make a massive difference at this point though. If you can trade Walker though and replace him with D'Arnaud who can hit lead off it then allows you to put a more typical power bat in the outfield as opposed to starting Presley and Tabata.

The problem with Tabata and Presley is that they have value as CF'ers but they lose a lot of it when they play a corner spot because the bat doesn't translate as well. When Marte comes up he will play CF and McCutchen will move to LF. Marte is a much better defender than McCutchen in CF. The ideal outfielder would be Josh Bell in RF but he is a long time away so I could see the team trading Presley or Tabata for a veteran guy in the offseason. Right now they cost to much but in January teams are willing to dump guys in year 3 of arbitration for nothing because they want to go cheaper and play a young guy. Like Carlos Quentin who was dealt for low level prospects. One guy I would love the Pirates to grab and give a shot to is Travis Snider on Toronto. He won't get a shot here and he's going to get passed by Anthony Gose and I think next year he is out of options. Who knows maybe something can be worked out because the Jays have just been decimated by injuries in the starting rotation. I'm talking about them starting ex-Pirate Jesse Chavez bad. I could see a Erik Bedard for Snider deal making sense for both teams.

Walker certainly needs to pick it up with the bat.  He's been consistently mediocre, and that isn't good enough.

But in my opinion he's not going anywhere any time soon.  As a local kid, he's definitely a fan favorite and good for overal team PR.

No doubt that Alen Hanson will be this teams future second baseman. 2014 is probably the earliest you could realistically expect him though and he would have to be pushed to get there. (Promoted to Bradenton for the rest of 2012, keep things up in Bradenton and start 2013 in AA. Then it's performance based. Late season callup to AAA is possible and start 2014 in AAA till June and take over at that point.

I would be fine though with sticking some combination of Mercer/Harrison/D'Arnaud at second base for the next couple of years though.

Neil Walker likely really botched things by not working on a long term contract last off season. It's unlikely the team would be so eager to lock him up for 6 years when they control him for the next 4 anyway and Hanson making a huge breakthrough.

katoy2j wrote: No doubt that Alen Hanson will be this teams future second baseman. 2014 is probably the earliest you could realistically expect him though and he would have to be pushed to get there. (Promoted to Bradenton for the rest of 2012, keep things up in Bradenton and start 2013 in AA. Then it's performance based. Late season callup to AAA is possible and start 2014 in AAA till June and take over at that point.

I would be fine though with sticking some combination of Mercer/Harrison/D'Arnaud at second base for the next couple of years though.

Neil Walker likely really botched things by not working on a long term contract last off season. It's unlikely the team would be so eager to lock him up for 6 years when they control him for the next 4 anyway and Hanson making a huge breakthrough.

I'm with you for the most part here.  Hansen looks to be the next best option.  I think the Pirates would be best served moving guys like Mercer, Harrison, and D'Arnaud to get better bats now than to move Walker.  Basically the assumption is that the 3 kids really aren't much better than Walker, so you might as well just trade the prospects as you'll get more for them.

No I think you would get more for Walker then the other players. Walker has 1300 at bats in the majors and middle infield all across baseball has been down. I'm not high on him but he would still be an upgrade on about 10 teams in baseball. He would be a good addition on some of those teams because he wouldn't need to be a key offensive player. Take a team like Detroit which would be a perfect fit for him. He can bat 7th or 8th on that team.

We ain't tradin' no Neil Walker.

The chances are much better Hansen will be traded in the next month than Walker.