gr1111 wrote: His home run yesterday was on a belt high batting practice fastball on the inside part of the plate. Easy pickings.

The curious part of it was that Worley had already thrown him three or four identical meatballs, and Pedro had taken all of them for strikes. I'm not sure what Worley was thinking, and Pedro finally did the right thing.

cferrel3 wrote:

Well I believe Alvarez gives the Pirates the best chance to win, he has the most upside on offense and is superior defensviely. Alvarez's job isn't to be a situational hitter, that isn't what he is paid to do. His job, just like Hurdle has stated over and over again, is to take aggressive, hard cuts. Even with two strikes and try to drive the ball. Do you think that the Phillies ask Ryan Howard to use his at bat to try to move a runner over or want him to be just thinking sac fly or single? No way. Pedro isn't Ryan Howard, but that is who the Pirates would love for him to become. It took Howard until he was 25 to figure it out, and then he exploded as a 26 year old. We should give Pedro the same chances. I don't think he will ever be Howard, but if he is even close we have ourselves a player. Also, Hurdle said after the game that Alvarez is a guy that will rarely get pinch hit for in his career. He said this was just because they want to get Pedro going early in the season and Bastardo is deadly against lefties.

 

And don't compare Pedro to Bonds, it is completely unfair and they are vastly different types of players. Bonds had great speed and contact ability, and he is also one of the greatest hitter to ever play the game.

The only thing I actually agree with you, is your last 2 sentences.  Bonds was a significantly more well-rounded ball player than Alvarez will ever be.

Outside of that, I don't think anyone has ever used the words "...is superior defensively" when talking about Alvarez.  In fact, the word detrimental is more accurate.  His dWAR last year was -0.2, which is actually a good improvement from the year before where he was -1.4.  That being said, looking further into his fielding abilities (or lack thereof), use this as a reference (http://www.baseball-reference....alvarpe01.shtml), you will see that over the last 2 seasons, having him on the field COSTS the Pirates runs (take note of the “fielding” section). 

With respect to Ryan Howard, at the age of 25, he had a total 42 plate appearances in the majors, meaning he had 4.5 years in the minors to “figure it out”… at 25, Alvarez had almost 650 plate appearances… meaning he had 3 years in the minors to “figure it out”.  The Phillies gave Howard time; the Pirates did not do that with Alvarez.  Now, that’s an organizational issue and not an Alvarez issue, but if the team is going to force the guy out there when it’s apparent he’s not ready, you can’t be surprised if people complain.

Whether or not Pedro will ever be Ryan Howard, that’s the role he’s expected to fill… a power hitting #4 hitter.  Ryan Howard never gets pinch hit for even when matchups drastically favor the pitcher because even in the worst case scenario’s, if a pitcher makes a mistake, Howard very well could hit the ball 400 feet.  At this point in time, Pedro might not even swing at that pitch… or foul it off.  Sure, Hurdle said this is something that isn’t likely to happen all that much, but he has to say that.  He has to give Pedro and the fans the impression that the team feels that Pedro will in fact be what we all hope.  If he comes out and says the truth, something like: “if Pedro keeps going at this pace, we’ll have to pinch hit for him regularly”, there would be total chaos.

In summation, Pedro’s oWAR is in the negative; his dWAR is in the negative… hence, he’s a total liability to this team on the field and at the plate.  Had he been drafted in the third round, he’d have never made this roster after last season and Spring Training.  This is strictly a money move and the rest of the players and fans are suffering for it.  So is Alvarez!!  He’s going out there every day knowing that if he continues to play this way, he’s a hindrance and not a positive force.  It’s putting more pressure on him and it’s having a negative effect.  He’s “thinking” entirely too much and not allowing what he can do naturally come out.

gr1111 wrote: I watched the game and saw what happened.

I don't hate Alvarez. The very suggestion that I hate any player is ridiculous, and I take offense to it. This is baseball, and hate has no place in it.

And as spin goes, calling a belt high inside 85 mph fastball (which is the pitch speed on the Root gun) a "change up" and complimenting him for hitting an "off speed pitch" is beyond spin. Pedro may get better, but for now all he is capable of is hitting mistakes. .

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--- cferrel3 wrote:

gr1111 wrote: His home run yesterday was on a belt high batting practice fastball on the inside part of the plate. Easy pickings.

The curious part of it was that Worley had already thrown him three or four identical meatballs, and Pedro had taken all of them for strikes. I'm not sure what Worley was thinking, and Pedro finally did the right thing.

His homerun was on a changeup, just thought I would point that out. This was more encouraging because it was an offspeed pitch following a fastball.



And no Worley didn't, did you watch the game? Worley threw him a slider and a cutter that Pedro laid off of, then a fastball that caught the plate that Pedro took a healthy cut at and fouled off, then he came back with a changup and Pedro hit it 430 feet. It was actually a great at bat.

What is your hatred for Alvarez? The amount of spin you put on the "truth" in your post was amazing lol.



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TBayXXXVII wrote:

cferrel3 wrote:

Well I believe Alvarez gives the Pirates the best chance to win, he has the most upside on offense and is superior defensviely. Alvarez's job isn't to be a situational hitter, that isn't what he is paid to do. His job, just like Hurdle has stated over and over again, is to take aggressive, hard cuts. Even with two strikes and try to drive the ball. Do you think that the Phillies ask Ryan Howard to use his at bat to try to move a runner over or want him to be just thinking sac fly or single? No way. Pedro isn't Ryan Howard, but that is who the Pirates would love for him to become. It took Howard until he was 25 to figure it out, and then he exploded as a 26 year old. We should give Pedro the same chances. I don't think he will ever be Howard, but if he is even close we have ourselves a player. Also, Hurdle said after the game that Alvarez is a guy that will rarely get pinch hit for in his career. He said this was just because they want to get Pedro going early in the season and Bastardo is deadly against lefties.

 

And don't compare Pedro to Bonds, it is completely unfair and they are vastly different types of players. Bonds had great speed and contact ability, and he is also one of the greatest hitter to ever play the game.

The only thing I actually agree with you, is your last 2 sentences. Bonds was a significantly more well-rounded ball player than Alvarez will ever be.

Outside of that, I don't think anyone has ever used the words "...is superior defensively" when talking about Alvarez. In fact, the word detrimental is more accurate. His dWAR last year was -0.2, which is actually a good improvement from the year before where he was -1.4. That being said, looking further into his fielding abilities (or lack thereof), use this as a reference (http://www.baseball-reference....alvarpe01.shtml), you will see that over the last 2 seasons, having him on the field COSTS the Pirates runs (take note of the “fielding” section).

With respect to Ryan Howard, at the age of 25, he had a total 42 plate appearances in the majors, meaning he had 4.5 years in the minors to “figure it out”… at 25, Alvarez had almost 650 plate appearances… meaning he had 3 years in the minors to “figure it out”. The Phillies gave Howard time; the Pirates did not do that with Alvarez. Now, that’s an organizational issue and not an Alvarez issue, but if the team is going to force the guy out there when it’s apparent he’s not ready, you can’t be surprised if people complain.

Whether or not Pedro will ever be Ryan Howard, that’s the role he’s expected to fill… a power hitting #4 hitter. Ryan Howard never gets pinch hit for even when matchups drastically favor the pitcher because even in the worst case scenario’s, if a pitcher makes a mistake, Howard very well could hit the ball 400 feet. At this point in time, Pedro might not even swing at that pitch… or foul it off. Sure, Hurdle said this is something that isn’t likely to happen all that much, but he has to say that. He has to give Pedro and the fans the impression that the team feels that Pedro will in fact be what we all hope. If he comes out and says the truth, something like: “if Pedro keeps going at this pace, we’ll have to pinch hit for him regularly”, there would be total chaos.

In summation, Pedro’s oWAR is in the negative; his dWAR is in the negative… hence, he’s a total liability to this team on the field and at the plate. Had he been drafted in the third round, he’d have never made this roster after last season and Spring Training. This is strictly a money move and the rest of the players and fans are suffering for it. So is Alvarez!! He’s going out there every day knowing that if he continues to play this way, he’s a hindrance and not a positive force. It’s putting more pressure on him and it’s having a negative effect. He’s “thinking” entirely too much and not allowing what he can do naturally come out.

Well the sad thing is that Alvarez is actually better than McGehee, Jones, or Hague on defense. I wasn't referring to Alvarez as a superior defender, but as superior to the other 3 players on the roster. Sorry for the confusion.

And it isn't a money decision, Alvarez got a large bonus 4 years ago. But, currently he is making $700,000 this season, good for 17th most on the team and only about $220,000 above what Hague will make. So I understand where you are coming from because of the huge bonus and high draft position, but I think the decision to keep him on the roster has more to do with raw talent and ability than money. There is a reason he was drafted 2nd overall and paid a lot of money, his ceiling is much, much higher than the alternatives.

cferrel3 wrote:

gr1111 wrote: I watched the game and saw what happened.

I don't hate Alvarez. The very suggestion that I hate any player is ridiculous, and I take offense to it. This is baseball, and hate has no place in it.

And as spin goes, calling a belt high inside 85 mph fastball (which is the pitch speed on the Root gun) a "change up" and complimenting him for hitting an "off speed pitch" is beyond spin. Pedro may get better, but for now all he is capable of is hitting mistakes. .

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--- cferrel3 wrote:

gr1111 wrote: His home run yesterday was on a belt high batting practice fastball on the inside part of the plate. Easy pickings.

The curious part of it was that Worley had already thrown him three or four identical meatballs, and Pedro had taken all of them for strikes. I'm not sure what Worley was thinking, and Pedro finally did the right thing.

His homerun was on a changeup, just thought I would point that out. This was more encouraging because it was an offspeed pitch following a fastball.



And no Worley didn't, did you watch the game? Worley threw him a slider and a cutter that Pedro laid off of, then a fastball that caught the plate that Pedro took a healthy cut at and fouled off, then he came back with a changup and Pedro hit it 430 feet. It was actually a great at bat.

What is your hatred for Alvarez? The amount of spin you put on the "truth" in your post was amazing lol.



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It was an 82 mph changeup. I have the game DVR'd and it said 82. Also, the gamecast said 82 mph changeup. Oh, and the article about the game said it was a changeup, as well as Hurdle saying it was an offspeed pitch lol. So no it wasn't a fastball, I think you are the only one that thinks it was. Do you really think that Worley throws an 85 mph fastball? His cutter is harder than that.

gr1111 wrote:

cferrel3 wrote:

gr1111 wrote: I watched the game and saw what happened.

I don't hate Alvarez. The very suggestion that I hate any player is ridiculous, and I take offense to it. This is baseball, and hate has no place in it.

And as spin goes, calling a belt high inside 85 mph fastball (which is the pitch speed on the Root gun) a "change up" and complimenting him for hitting an "off speed pitch" is beyond spin. Pedro may get better, but for now all he is capable of is hitting mistakes. .

---------------------------------------------
--- cferrel3 wrote:

gr1111 wrote: His home run yesterday was on a belt high batting practice fastball on the inside part of the plate. Easy pickings.

The curious part of it was that Worley had already thrown him three or four identical meatballs, and Pedro had taken all of them for strikes. I'm not sure what Worley was thinking, and Pedro finally did the right thing.

His homerun was on a changeup, just thought I would point that out. This was more encouraging because it was an offspeed pitch following a fastball.



And no Worley didn't, did you watch the game? Worley threw him a slider and a cutter that Pedro laid off of, then a fastball that caught the plate that Pedro took a healthy cut at and fouled off, then he came back with a changup and Pedro hit it 430 feet. It was actually a great at bat.

What is your hatred for Alvarez? The amount of spin you put on the "truth" in your post was amazing lol.



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It was an 82 mph changeup. I have the game DVR'd and it said 82. Also, the gamecast said 82 mph changeup. Oh, and the article about the game said it was a changeup, as well as Hurdle saying it was an offspeed pitch lol. So no it wasn't a fastball, I think you are the only one that thinks it was. Do you really think that Worley throws an 85 mph fastball? His cutter is harder than that.

At 85 mph, you can call it a batting practice fastball, or a very bad changeup.

Either way, it was a meatball.

BAMSTEELERFAN wrote: It was a meatball and he hit it 400ft. What's the point? Other than another illogical argument, for the sake of griping.

gr1111 wrote: Pedro is now 1 for 16 (.063). Even worse, he's struck out 10 times in 16 at bats.

I assume he still gets at least a couple months to prove himself, but he isn't making it easy.

And the sad part is that he has been probably the 4th or 5th best player on the roster thus far lol. The offense has been pathetic, I don't care how good the pitching is.

And Hurdle isn't helping Alvarez out at all, if he truly wanted him to succeed he would move him up in the order.

gr1111 wrote: Pedro is now 1 for 16 (.063). Even worse, he's struck out 10 times in 16 at bats.

I assume he still gets at least a couple months to prove himself, but he isn't making it easy.

gr1111 wrote: I'm sorry but that is nonsense, and a ridiculous excuse for Pedro.

The idea that Pedro's failures are somehow Hurdle's fault is beyond belief, in mt opinion.

Pedro is getting a ton of pitches to hit, including fastballs right down the middle. He just hasn't hit them.

Pedro has struck out in 10 of his 16 at bats so far this season. So far, HE SUCKS. To blame anybody but Pedro (including Hurdle) takes excuse-making to an absurd level.

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--- cferrel3 wrote:

gr1111 wrote: Pedro is now 1 for 16 (.063). Even worse, he's struck out 10 times in 16 at bats.

I assume he still gets at least a couple months to prove himself, but he isn't making it easy.

And the sad part is that he has been probably the 4th or 5th best player on the roster thus far lol. The offense has been pathetic, I don't care how good the pitching is.



And Hurdle isn't helping Alvarez out at all, if he truly wanted him to succeed he would move him up in the order.



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BAMSTEELERFAN wrote: Yep, if he and Sanchez bust Hunnington has to go with them.

The Pirates need to prepare for both Pedro and Sanchez being busts.  They should not hold a position for either.  Both Pedro and Sanchez should have to take a position from someone else.  No scholarships.

Buco4life90 wrote:

BAMSTEELERFAN wrote: Yep, if he and Sanchez bust Hunnington has to go with them.

I'm 50/50 with that. If Pedro is a bust that is a monster blow. Sanchez was picked because he would sign for slot money he was a mid to late 1st rounder and at the time we had zero catching prospects in the system. He would have been gone by the 2nd round. He basically allowed us to save money and pick Zack Von Rosenberg, Colt Cain, Nick Kingham, and Robbie Grossman if he would have taken someone else that would have signed for above slot money we wouldn't have gotten one or maybe two of those guys to sign. I'm not going to give up on Sanchez just yet. He made strides defensively and still should got on base skills. I'm not going to judge Hunnington based on his first two first round picks. You have to take into account his international signings which so far look to be paying off.

Sangue wrote:

The Pirates need to prepare for both Pedro and Sanchez being busts.  They should not hold a position for either.  Both Pedro and Sanchez should have to take a position from someone else.  No scholarships.