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Martin

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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:15 PM

Martin 


He his playing his way into a gigantic payday. I could see see him getting a contract similar to Brian Mccan did last year which was $17 million a year for 4 with a 5th option year. I think it will take at least 4 years and $60 million to sign him. Teams like the Dodgers and Tigers need to improve at catcher so the market will be in the big boy neighborhood. What do you think he will get and do you think the Pirates will and should pay market rate?

If your answer is its Nutting's money so pay whatever it takes and for how ever many years it takes then please don't bother to respond.
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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:40 PM

Re: Martin 


I don't know why he shouldn't ask for "McCann money".  At 4 years, McCann money ($17M) would get him $68M.  Even if he doesn't get that much, 4/$60M is not out of the question, imo.

I don't think there is much chance that the Pirates are serious bidders in that neighborhood.  I think the Pirates could afford it, but there is a long course of dealings that very strongly indicates that they just won't pay a single player that much.

It will be a significant step backwards, I'm afraid.   I hope I'm wrong.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:41 PM

Re: Martin 


I would go 3 years, 45 Million but adding the 4th year would be troublesome for me especially at $15mil for that season.

Maybe offer 4 years but offer him something like 4 yrs 55 million. I think I would end up doing the 4 yr 60 million though if that is what it took.

He is as close to a must sign as possible. If they don't resign him, they are in a world of hurt and obviously need to go outside for a legit starting option.

The problem is he is so close to free agency, I see no way the Pirates can sign him prior to him hitting free agency and once he does some team will really overpay him.

Last edited 08/27/2014 12:41 PM by panthers2533

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Posted: 08/27/2014 12:53 PM

Re: Martin 


Martin is eligible for the Qualifying offer correct? That would be a no brainer obviously if he is.
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Posted: 08/27/2014 1:40 PM

Re: Martin 



panthers2533 wrote: Martin is eligible for the Qualifying offer correct? That would be a no brainer obviously if he is.
who know if the pirates would even offer him 1,their probably scared to death he would accept
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Posted: 08/27/2014 2:24 PM

Re: Martin 



panthers2533 wrote: Martin is eligible for the Qualifying offer correct? That would be a no brainer obviously if he is.
If such is the case, offering him a qualifying offer would sure seem to be a no brainer.
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Posted: 08/27/2014 2:28 PM

Re: Martin 



chu8870 wrote:
panthers2533 wrote: Martin is eligible for the Qualifying offer correct? That would be a no brainer obviously if he is.
who know if the pirates would even offer him 1,their probably scared to death he would accept


Perhaps, but it would be stupid not do.  If he takes it, it is only for one year and no big deal long term.   If he doesn't take it (very highly likely), then we get a draft pick (and don's spend a dime).

___________

 

  

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Posted: 08/27/2014 3:18 PM

Re: Martin 


If they don't at a minimum give him the QO I will officially join the hate Nutting with a passion club. I don't think there is a chance at all in him signing before FA. My guess is that they will offer him 3 and $36 and he will walk. With the Dodgers and Tigers and Rangers all looking for catchers I bet he gets McCann money.

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--- gr1111 wrote:


chu8870 wrote:
panthers2533 wrote: Martin is eligible for the Qualifying offer correct? That would be a no brainer obviously if he is.
who know if the pirates would even offer him 1,their probably scared to death he would accept


Perhaps, but it would be stupid not do.  If he takes it, it is only for one year and no big deal long term.   If he doesn't take it (very highly likely), then we get a draft pick (and don's spend a dime).

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 08/27/2014 3:27 PM

Re: Martin 


I heard Huntington on the radio the other day and to paraphrase, he didn't thing there is a chance in hell the Pirates would resign Martin.  He said the Pirates would have to commit too high of a percentage of their payroll to sign him.  I would hope they would make a qualifying offer in order to get the draft pick, but who knows?  And yes, catcher is going to be a much weaker position next year, especially since Sanchez no longer looks like starting material.
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Posted: 08/27/2014 3:51 PM

Re: Martin 


They will need to make a trade to get a catcher. There is nothing on the FA market. I heard that interview as well. He basically said get used to losing 1 or 2 guys every year. I have been a big supporter of the BMTIS and ownership and I have preached patience. I will continue to say that it's their job to manage their resources and do what they think will make the organization as a whole better regardless of what the fans want or think. That said, the key metric is wins and losses at the major league level now. You want to let Martin walk? Fine just win. You want to let Walker walk? Fine just win. You want to let Liriano and Volquez walk? Fine just win. And by winning I don't mean piddling around hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. If that's what they continue to do then lightning better strike.


---------------------------------------------
--- BBG65 wrote:

I heard Huntington on the radio the other day and to paraphrase, he didn't thing there is a chance in hell the Pirates would resign Martin.  He said the Pirates would have to commit too high of a percentage of their payroll to sign him.  I would hope they would make a qualifying offer in order to get the draft pick, but who knows?  And yes, catcher is going to be a much weaker position next year, especially since Sanchez no longer looks like starting material.

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Posted: 08/28/2014 4:30 AM

Re: Martin 


Agree completely on the QO. If they fail to offer him that, then I will be on board as well.
abitoutside wrote: If they don't at a minimum give him the QO I will officially join the hate Nutting with a passion club. I don't think there is a chance at all in him signing before FA. My guess is that they will offer him 3 and $36 and he will walk. With the Dodgers and Tigers and Rangers all looking for catchers I bet he gets McCann money.

---------------------------------------------
--- gr1111 wrote:


chu8870 wrote:
panthers2533 wrote: Martin is eligible for the Qualifying offer correct? That would be a no brainer obviously if he is.
who know if the pirates would even offer him 1,their probably scared to death he would accept


Perhaps, but it would be stupid not do.  If he takes it, it is only for one year and no big deal long term.   If he doesn't take it (very highly likely), then we get a draft pick (and don's spend a dime).

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Posted: 08/28/2014 5:26 AM

Re: Martin 



abitoutside wrote: They will need to make a trade to get a catcher. There is nothing on the FA market. I heard that interview as well. He basically said get used to losing 1 or 2 guys every year. I have been a big supporter of the BMTIS and ownership and I have preached patience. I will continue to say that it's their job to manage their resources and do what they think will make the organization as a whole better regardless of what the fans want or think. That said, the key metric is wins and losses at the major league level now. You want to let Martin walk? Fine just win. You want to let Walker walk? Fine just win. You want to let Liriano and Volquez walk? Fine just win. And by winning I don't mean piddling around hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. If that's what they continue to do then lightning better strike.


---------------------------------------------
--- BBG65 wrote:

I heard Huntington on the radio the other day and to paraphrase, he didn't thing there is a chance in hell the Pirates would resign Martin.  He said the Pirates would have to commit too high of a percentage of their payroll to sign him.  I would hope they would make a qualifying offer in order to get the draft pick, but who knows?  And yes, catcher is going to be a much weaker position next year, especially since Sanchez no longer looks like starting material.

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The Pirates have done a great job a building a core and farm system that gives them the ability to be a competitive team. Now will they take the next step and sign or trade for the players that will make them serious threats to go deep into the playoffs and even a WS?
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Posted: 08/28/2014 6:00 AM

Re: Martin 



BBG65 wrote: I heard Huntington on the radio the other day and to paraphrase, he didn't thing there is a chance in hell the Pirates would resign Martin.  He said the Pirates would have to commit too high of a percentage of their payroll to sign him.  I would hope they would make a qualifying offer in order to get the draft pick, but who knows?  And yes, catcher is going to be a much weaker position next year, especially since Sanchez no longer looks like starting material.
Terribly disappointing but also, what kinda message do you think that sends the players?  Martin is a leader both on and off the field and the FO just basically said he's gonna walk because they can't pay him.  We aren't talking about a guy making $30 million/year either.  Sadly, I'm beginning to think we will watch Cutch's best years fade and our only hope is catching lightning in a bottle.  We will never have true, sustained success with the group we have now in the FO.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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  • kdog341
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Posted: 08/28/2014 6:26 AM

Re: Martin 


Martin is a great defensive catcher but he is still a 250 hitter. You don't pay mcan money for that.



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Posted: 08/28/2014 8:15 AM

Re: Martin 



kdog341 wrote: Martin is a great defensive catcher but he is still a 250 hitter. You don't pay mcan money for that.
You're right about his career numbers, but this year, he is hitting .290 with one of the highest OBPs in the league.
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Posted: 08/28/2014 8:43 AM

Re: Martin 



abitoutside wrote: They will need to make a trade to get a catcher. There is nothing on the FA market. I heard that interview as well. He basically said get used to losing 1 or 2 guys every year. I have been a big supporter of the BMTIS and ownership and I have preached patience. I will continue to say that it's their job to manage their resources and do what they think will make the organization as a whole better regardless of what the fans want or think. That said, the key metric is wins and losses at the major league level now. You want to let Martin walk? Fine just win. You want to let Walker walk? Fine just win. You want to let Liriano and Volquez walk? Fine just win. And by winning I don't mean piddling around hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. If that's what they continue to do then lightning better strike.




Martin, for sure, is a very valuable guy and arguably the Pirates' MVP over the past two seasons.  While there would be risk in signing him for the next few years---given his age and high mileage---the catching position in general is fairly weak around MLB at the moment, and Martin, as others have noted, is clearly in line for "McCann money".   So, the Pirates are in a bad position where he is concerned.


Having said all that, I think ABO has summarized things well.  The Pirates have to properly manage the assets they have to maximum benefit.  As with Tampa Bay, that will sometimes mean letting popular veterans walk or trading them while they still have value in return.   Clearly, the strategy with Martin should be to make the QO so the Pirates at least get a draft pick out of the deal, since he is extremely unlikely to take the 3 year, $45 million - type offer that would probably be the zenith of what he would get in Pittsburgh. 


Meanwhile, any of yinz have any idea who might be the starting catcher next season?  I would think they would bring Stewart back as the backup or short half of a platoon, which would seem to augur for a lefthanded hitting catcher.

Last edited 08/28/2014 8:44 AM by williamjpellas

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Posted: 08/28/2014 9:11 AM

Re: Martin 



GhostOfPBG wrote:
BBG65 wrote: I heard Huntington on the radio the other day and to paraphrase, he didn't thing there is a chance in hell the Pirates would resign Martin.  He said the Pirates would have to commit too high of a percentage of their payroll to sign him.  I would hope they would make a qualifying offer in order to get the draft pick, but who knows?  And yes, catcher is going to be a much weaker position next year, especially since Sanchez no longer looks like starting material.
Terribly disappointing but also, what kinda message do you think that sends the players?  Martin is a leader both on and off the field and the FO just basically said he's gonna walk because they can't pay him.  We aren't talking about a guy making $30 million/year either.  Sadly, I'm beginning to think we will watch Cutch's best years fade and our only hope is catching lightning in a bottle.  We will never have true, sustained success with the group we have now in the FO.
I think we also have to remember that, being a free agent, Martin will have his CHOICE of where to go.  Who's to say we don't offer him the same or better deal than someone like the Dodgers or Red Sox, but he chooses to go to one of those teams instead because they are (or can easily be) stacked? 

I'm sure the answer will be that a scenario like that is nothing more than the Pirates evil front office PR scam. 

In my opinion, you pay him for three or four years even if it's an overspend, but you can't kidnap the guy if he chooses somewhere else to go.
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Posted: 08/28/2014 9:26 AM

Re: Martin 



WVUKowski wrote:
GhostOfPBG wrote:
BBG65 wrote: I heard Huntington on the radio the other day and to paraphrase, he didn't thing there is a chance in hell the Pirates would resign Martin.  He said the Pirates would have to commit too high of a percentage of their payroll to sign him.  I would hope they would make a qualifying offer in order to get the draft pick, but who knows?  And yes, catcher is going to be a much weaker position next year, especially since Sanchez no longer looks like starting material.
Terribly disappointing but also, what kinda message do you think that sends the players?  Martin is a leader both on and off the field and the FO just basically said he's gonna walk because they can't pay him.  We aren't talking about a guy making $30 million/year either.  Sadly, I'm beginning to think we will watch Cutch's best years fade and our only hope is catching lightning in a bottle.  We will never have true, sustained success with the group we have now in the FO.
I think we also have to remember that, being a free agent, Martin will have his CHOICE of where to go.  Who's to say we don't offer him the same or better deal than someone like the Dodgers or Red Sox, but he chooses to go to one of those teams instead because they are (or can easily be) stacked? 

I'm sure the answer will be that a scenario like that is nothing more than the Pirates evil front office PR scam. 

In my opinion, you pay him for three or four years even if it's an overspend, but you can't kidnap the guy if he chooses somewhere else to go.
eek  Do you really think that's gonna happen?  REALLY?  The GM just said otherwise....

Sure he has a choice where to go.  And he chose to come here 2 years ago because we offered the most money.  Since then, we've been very competitive.  He seems to like it here and he seems to like Hurdle.  Assuming we can match any other contracts, I don't see why he would leave.  But admittedly, I've never met the guy and have no clue.  It all comes down to the offers as you suggest.  And just because one doesn't think the FO will make a competitive offer doesn't mean I am a conspiracy theorist or something.  There's literally decades of empirical evidence to back that up.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 08/28/2014 1:43 PM

Re: Martin 



kdog341 wrote: Martin is a great defensive catcher but he is still a 250 hitter. You don't pay mcan money for that.
Yes you can.  The reason you can is because he impacts your pitchers.  He basically upgrades your entire pitching staff.  He turns a decent #5 in to a solid #4.  He makes a decent #3 look like a solid #2.  That impact is much greater than a player who hits .250.
#fringeprospect
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Posted: 08/28/2014 2:08 PM

Re: Martin 


Lots of catchers can do that though.

Jeff Mathis is notorious for being an elite defensive catcher.

McCann money is 17 million a year. Any team that offers that to Martin deserves what they get.

The reason why Martin is a Pirate is because they bought him at a low point in his value coming off an unimpressive year. Now Martin is set to cash in after a stellar season. The problem is he isn't likely to be nearly as good offensively again based on BABIP stabilizing and career averages. While his defense will probably still be very good you do not pay 17 million for good defense. That kind of money you need to be a very good offensive player as well. Martin isn't this year excluded.

If you want to try and buy low on a good catcher who is nearly as good as Martin defensively and probably better than Martin offensively a target is someone like Jason Castro.
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