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Word.

Posted: 07/23/2014 4:29 AM

Word. 


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Posted: 07/23/2014 7:24 AM

Re: Word. 


+1

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Posted: 07/23/2014 8:47 AM

Re: Word. 



I can't agree with this at all honestly.  With the extra wild card especially the game is more open to teams making the playoffs then ever.

Look if baseball implemented a salary cap of 150 million the Pirates aren't going to come close to that anyway.  They will always operate within a budget and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Now more than ever you're seeing smaller market teams retain their own players.  Who was the big fish last season?  It was Jacoby Ellsbury.  He left a huge market team only because that team didn't believe he was worth that money.  What team did Zack Greinke play for before the Dodgers?  It was the other LA team that the article says can just go out and spend.  Obviously even they have a budget.

Look it's very simple.  The best way to win is developing young players.  The other part of that and one I don't think the Pirates have done a good enough job at is playing those young players.  I have very little sympathy for a team like the Pirates saying they have to play on a budget.  The team had a guy that hit 30 home runs last year with a plus .900 OPS in AAA last year in Andrew Lambo.  His salary for 2015 would of been the minimum of 500K.  Instead the team payed Travis Ishikawa 1 million dollars only to release him 3 weeks later.  Then they traded for Ike Davis and payed him 3.5 million dollars.  That's an extra 4 million dollars the team chose to spend.  Is that the Yankees fault?  What big market team caused the Pirates to make this move?  The Pirates needed a defensive shortstop in free agency.  The minor leagues are littered with all glove and no hit players that will play for the minimum.  Why did the Pirates feel it necessary to give Clint Barmes 2 million dollars?  It wasn't the Angels and the Yankees fault.  It wasn't there fault either that the A's traded for Jim Johnson and paid him 10 million a year.  Nick Swisher came from the Yankees and the Indians chose to give him a massive contract even though he was entering his decline years.  They have nobody to blame but themselves for his (-0.6) WAR at a cost of 15 million a season.

The Pirates at least have minimized their mistakes by limiting the bad contracts.  It's not for a lack of trying though.  Things for them could of been a whole lot uglier if they didn't finish second place for players like Jorge De La Rosa and James Loney.

If anything I think the game is slanted in the opposite direction.  If players were entitled to market rate instead of being limited to entry level deals from day one then the current Pirates team would have a payroll of about 150 million.  Instead it's half that.  I have no problem if a guy leaves for greener pastures after he's played his entry level deal out.  I also don't mind letting that player go either in free agency because history has shown that the overwhelming majority of players that leave in free agency have already played their best baseball.  These players end up getting mega deals to be minimal players.  Guys like Vernon Wells, Alfonso Soriano made over 100 million on their contracts and were getting paid out by multiple teams before they were finally released.  Guys like BJ Upton and Nick Swisher are making huge sums of money and have years of term left on their deals.
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Posted: 07/23/2014 9:14 AM

Re: Word. 



Dude? The point is that small market teams can't make mistakes financially or in the talent development/assessment/management. There is no wiggle room, they have to be perfect. Big market teams don't have any of the concerns small market teams do. They can simply buy their way out of holes. Nothing depresses me more than rosters like the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees. That is not the spirit of competition. That's trying to bully up and buy championships. It shouldn't be this way. It should be an equal playing field. The NFL has it figured out.

---------------------------------------------
--- katoy2j wrote:


I can't agree with this at all honestly.  With the extra wild card especially the game is more open to teams making the playoffs then ever.

Look if baseball implemented a salary cap of 150 million the Pirates aren't going to come close to that anyway.  They will always operate within a budget and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Now more than ever you're seeing smaller market teams retain their own players.  Who was the big fish last season?  It was Jacoby Ellsbury.  He left a huge market team only because that team didn't believe he was worth that money.  What team did Zack Greinke play for before the Dodgers?  It was the other LA team that the article says can just go out and spend.  Obviously even they have a budget.

Look it's very simple.  The best way to win is developing young players.  The other part of that and one I don't think the Pirates have done a good enough job at is playing those young players.  I have very little sympathy for a team like the Pirates saying they have to play on a budget.  The team had a guy that hit 30 home runs last year with a plus .900 OPS in AAA last year in Andrew Lambo.  His salary for 2015 would of been the minimum of 500K.  Instead the team payed Travis Ishikawa 1 million dollars only to release him 3 weeks later.  Then they traded for Ike Davis and payed him 3.5 million dollars.  That's an extra 4 million dollars the team chose to spend.  Is that the Yankees fault?  What big market team caused the Pirates to make this move?  The Pirates needed a defensive shortstop in free agency.  The minor leagues are littered with all glove and no hit players that will play for the minimum.  Why did the Pirates feel it necessary to give Clint Barmes 2 million dollars?  It wasn't the Angels and the Yankees fault.  It wasn't there fault either that the A's traded for Jim Johnson and paid him 10 million a year.  Nick Swisher came from the Yankees and the Indians chose to give him a massive contract even though he was entering his decline years.  They have nobody to blame but themselves for his (-0.6) WAR at a cost of 15 million a season.

The Pirates at least have minimized their mistakes by limiting the bad contracts.  It's not for a lack of trying though.  Things for them could of been a whole lot uglier if they didn't finish second place for players like Jorge De La Rosa and James Loney.

If anything I think the game is slanted in the opposite direction.  If players were entitled to market rate instead of being limited to entry level deals from day one then the current Pirates team would have a payroll of about 150 million.  Instead it's half that.  I have no problem if a guy leaves for greener pastures after he's played his entry level deal out.  I also don't mind letting that player go either in free agency because history has shown that the overwhelming majority of players that leave in free agency have already played their best baseball.  These players end up getting mega deals to be minimal players.  Guys like Vernon Wells, Alfonso Soriano made over 100 million on their contracts and were getting paid out by multiple teams before they were finally released.  Guys like BJ Upton and Nick Swisher are making huge sums of money and have years of term left on their deals.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 07/23/2014 9:36 AM

Re: Word. 



BAMSTEELERFAN wrote:
Dude? The point is that small market teams can't make mistakes financially or in the talent development/assessment/management. There is no wiggle room, they have to be perfect. Big market teams don't have any of the concerns small market teams do. They can simply buy their way out of holes. Nothing depresses me more than rosters like the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees. That is not the spirit of competition. That's trying to bully up and buy championships. It shouldn't be this way. It should be an equal playing field. The NFL has it figured out.

---------------------------------------------
--- katoy2j wrote:


I can't agree with this at all honestly.  With the extra wild card especially the game is more open to teams making the playoffs then ever.

Look if baseball implemented a salary cap of 150 million the Pirates aren't going to come close to that anyway.  They will always operate within a budget and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Now more than ever you're seeing smaller market teams retain their own players.  Who was the big fish last season?  It was Jacoby Ellsbury.  He left a huge market team only because that team didn't believe he was worth that money.  What team did Zack Greinke play for before the Dodgers?  It was the other LA team that the article says can just go out and spend.  Obviously even they have a budget.

Look it's very simple.  The best way to win is developing young players.  The other part of that and one I don't think the Pirates have done a good enough job at is playing those young players.  I have very little sympathy for a team like the Pirates saying they have to play on a budget.  The team had a guy that hit 30 home runs last year with a plus .900 OPS in AAA last year in Andrew Lambo.  His salary for 2015 would of been the minimum of 500K.  Instead the team payed Travis Ishikawa 1 million dollars only to release him 3 weeks later.  Then they traded for Ike Davis and payed him 3.5 million dollars.  That's an extra 4 million dollars the team chose to spend.  Is that the Yankees fault?  What big market team caused the Pirates to make this move?  The Pirates needed a defensive shortstop in free agency.  The minor leagues are littered with all glove and no hit players that will play for the minimum.  Why did the Pirates feel it necessary to give Clint Barmes 2 million dollars?  It wasn't the Angels and the Yankees fault.  It wasn't there fault either that the A's traded for Jim Johnson and paid him 10 million a year.  Nick Swisher came from the Yankees and the Indians chose to give him a massive contract even though he was entering his decline years.  They have nobody to blame but themselves for his (-0.6) WAR at a cost of 15 million a season.

The Pirates at least have minimized their mistakes by limiting the bad contracts.  It's not for a lack of trying though.  Things for them could of been a whole lot uglier if they didn't finish second place for players like Jorge De La Rosa and James Loney.

If anything I think the game is slanted in the opposite direction.  If players were entitled to market rate instead of being limited to entry level deals from day one then the current Pirates team would have a payroll of about 150 million.  Instead it's half that.  I have no problem if a guy leaves for greener pastures after he's played his entry level deal out.  I also don't mind letting that player go either in free agency because history has shown that the overwhelming majority of players that leave in free agency have already played their best baseball.  These players end up getting mega deals to be minimal players.  Guys like Vernon Wells, Alfonso Soriano made over 100 million on their contracts and were getting paid out by multiple teams before they were finally released.  Guys like BJ Upton and Nick Swisher are making huge sums of money and have years of term left on their deals.

---------------------------------------------


In last night's lineup, the Dodgers' 3-6 hitters (Gonzalez, Kemp, Ethier, and Crawford) will make $80 million in 2014, more than the Pirates' entire 40-man roster ($77.7M).

If Puig and Ramirez had played, the number would be over $100M, not including Beckett ($17M).  Greinke ($28M)  and Kershaw (just $22M this season, but moving to $30.7M next year) also didn't play.

A different game entirely.

___________

 

  

Last edited 07/23/2014 9:40 AM by gr1111

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Posted: 07/23/2014 9:54 AM

Re: Word. 



BAMSTEELERFAN wrote:
Dude? The point is that small market teams can't make mistakes financially or in the talent development/assessment/management. There is no wiggle room, they have to be perfect. Big market teams don't have any of the concerns small market teams do. They can simply buy their way out of holes. Nothing depresses me more than rosters like the Angels, Dodgers and Yankees. That is not the spirit of competition. That's trying to bully up and buy championships. It shouldn't be this way. It should be an equal playing field. The NFL has it figured out.

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The NFL has it figured out only because of the nature of the sport.  A player gets drafted and he plays right away.  Even a baseball player out of college needs a few years in the minors.

The reason the NFL is what it is has actually very little to do with a salary cap.  It has more to do with the fact that if you're a bad team you pick at the start of the draft.  It means you have the potential to draft impact players that can come in and start from day one instead of spending years in the minors like what has to happen in baseball.  Thus improving your team.

Look at basketball, a league with a soft salary cap.  Some teams spend twice as much as others.  The difference is that a bad team can draft a LeBron James and he plays right away and that team is dramatically improved.  In baseball if you're a bad team and make a draft pick it will be 4-5 years before you get that player on your team.  That is completely nothing to do with the salary cap.

Also you don't have to be perfect by any means.  Tampa Bay and Oakland have actually drafted very poorly over the last 5 or 6 years.  They've simply found a way to compensate their weaknesses by finding productive players by other avenues.  Any team could of signed Brandon Moss.  Many people are very confused about what moneyball is.  It's not about acquiring players who draw a lot of walks.  It's about finding market inefficiencies.  The thing is there will always be market inefficiencies because as teams try to copy other teams then new inefficiencies are developed.  The Pirates have there own market inefficiency philosophy and it's played out extremely well.  If you look at the drafts you see two trends.  Projectable arms and athletic center fielders.  Rather than drafting the prototype left fielder, right fielder and center fielder they took center fielders and played those guys out of position.  Taking a decrease in power but an overall upgrade in athleticism.  A lot of other teams are doing this as well now.  So it's up to the Pirates to figure out whats undervalued.

Is the game of baseball somewhat unfair?  In a sense yes it is but you can say that about every sport.  Only one team can have Mike Trout or LeBron James or Sidney Crosby on them so those teams will always have a relative advantage because they start out with the best player in the sport.  McCutchen is the second best player in baseball so that is a huge advantage to the Pirates.
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Posted: 07/23/2014 10:26 AM

Re: Word. 


Well until baseball goes with softball rules that allow you to play with a rover then Crawford, Kemp, Puig and Ethier won't be playing together in the same outfield anytime soon.

Carl Crawford 0.4 WAR
Andre Ethier (-0.4) WAR
Matt Kemp (-1.4) WAR

Andrew McCutchen 4.8 WAR
Starling Marte 2.1 WAR
Gregory Polanco 0.2 WAR

The saying my first boss told me at my first job was work smarter, not harder. The same applies to baseball. Spend smarter, not more.

The fact that the Dodgers have these big contracts actually hurts them. Their best productive outfielders this season have been Puig 3.4 WAR and Scott Van Slyke 2.0 WAR. Those guys can't play as much as they should because Kemp, Ethier and Crawford have to play so much because they make so much. That doesn't even factor in Pederson who is one of the top prospects in the minors and would likely be one of the top 3 outfielders on the Dodgers. If money didn't matter then Kemp, Crawford and Ethier would all be sitting. It does though. Baseball is a fair game because every team gets 25 roster spots. Building a team through free agency causes you to have issues the Dodgers have. There a good team because they have the best pitcher in baseball in Clayton Kershaw. They drafted and developed him though. It was another big market team that gave them Crawford, Gonzalez and Beckett. There was a reason for that. That team dumped all these high salary players and then won the World Series. The Cardinals lost their franchise player and at the time arguably the best hitter of the generation. They then went onto win the World Series.

I'm very tired of the whining about what other teams spend. Especially when the fans of those other teams pay a lot more for their team. The Pirates have the 4th lowest ticket price. If you want the Pirates to spend as much as the Cardinals that's fine but pay twice as much for your ticket. The Red Sox average ticket price is 52 dollars. The Pirates average is 18. The Cardinals is 34.

Lets make the game of baseball fair by implementing a salary cap in the game. Well lets make the ticket prices fair too if you're doing that because if you're a fan in Boston paying three times as much for a ticket as the person in Pittsburgh how is that fair? Lets make the average ticket price in Pittsburgh 50 dollars as well. What would end up happening is the stadium would be 3/4 empty
anyway and the team would be moving somewhere else. Look the Yankees and Red Sox can have big salaries because their fans are willing to pay for big salaries. The fans of Pittsburgh have not done that. You want to be entitled to the same 50 dollar steak that Red Sox fans get but you only want to pay 18 dollars for it.
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Posted: 07/23/2014 10:37 AM

Re: Word. 


YOU'RE tired of other people whining?  biggrin

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Posted: 07/23/2014 10:41 AM

Re: Word. 


I'm very tired of the whining about what other teams spend. Especially when the fans of those other teams pay a lot more for their team. The Pirates have the 4th lowest ticket price. If you want the Pirates to spend as much as the Cardinals that's fine but pay twice as much for your ticket. The Red Sox average ticket price is 52 dollars. The Pirates average is 18. The Cardinals is 34.

Lets make the game of baseball fair by implementing a salary cap in the game. Well lets make the ticket prices fair too if you're doing that because if you're a fan in Boston paying three times as much for a ticket as the person in Pittsburgh how is that fair? Lets make the average ticket price in Pittsburgh 50 dollars as well. What would end up happening is the stadium would be 3/4 empty anyway and the team would be moving somewhere else. Look the Yankees and Red Sox can have big salaries because their fans are willing to pay for big salaries. The fans of Pittsburgh have not done that. You want to be entitled to the same 50 dollar steak that Red Sox fans get but you only want to pay 18 dollars for it.



I love to disagree with Katoy, but I am in total agreement on this aspect of his argument!
THE IGNORE FUNCTION IS A BEAUTIFUL THING
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Posted: 07/23/2014 10:45 AM

Re: Word. 



fishmong wrote:

You want to be entitled to the same 50 dollar steak that Red Sox fans get but you only want to pay 18 dollars for it.

Yes - and I'll check Stub Hub to see if I can get that steak for $10.

A baseball game is not worth $50 (unless a corporation is paying).
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Posted: 07/23/2014 10:47 AM

Re: Word. 



fishmong wrote:

I'm very tired of the whining about what other teams spend. Especially when the fans of those other teams pay a lot more for their team. The Pirates have the 4th lowest ticket price. If you want the Pirates to spend as much as the Cardinals that's fine but pay twice as much for your ticket. The Red Sox average ticket price is 52 dollars. The Pirates average is 18. The Cardinals is 34.

Lets make the game of baseball fair by implementing a salary cap in the game. Well lets make the ticket prices fair too if you're doing that because if you're a fan in Boston paying three times as much for a ticket as the person in Pittsburgh how is that fair? Lets make the average ticket price in Pittsburgh 50 dollars as well. What would end up happening is the stadium would be 3/4 empty anyway and the team would be moving somewhere else. Look the Yankees and Red Sox can have big salaries because their fans are willing to pay for big salaries. The fans of Pittsburgh have not done that. You want to be entitled to the same 50 dollar steak that Red Sox fans get but you only want to pay 18 dollars for it.



I love to disagree with Katoy, but I am in total agreement on this aspect of his argument!


Actually, the argument is mostly BS.

The bigger markets have a huge financial advantage in local radio and TV money.  That's a matter of location and population, not ticket prices.

And as someone who regularly buys tickets to Pirates games and supports the team, katoy can kiss my you-know-what.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 07/23/2014 11:25 AM

Re: Word. 



gr1111 wrote:
fishmong wrote:

I'm very tired of the whining about what other teams spend. Especially when the fans of those other teams pay a lot more for their team. The Pirates have the 4th lowest ticket price. If you want the Pirates to spend as much as the Cardinals that's fine but pay twice as much for your ticket. The Red Sox average ticket price is 52 dollars. The Pirates average is 18. The Cardinals is 34.

Lets make the game of baseball fair by implementing a salary cap in the game. Well lets make the ticket prices fair too if you're doing that because if you're a fan in Boston paying three times as much for a ticket as the person in Pittsburgh how is that fair? Lets make the average ticket price in Pittsburgh 50 dollars as well. What would end up happening is the stadium would be 3/4 empty anyway and the team would be moving somewhere else. Look the Yankees and Red Sox can have big salaries because their fans are willing to pay for big salaries. The fans of Pittsburgh have not done that. You want to be entitled to the same 50 dollar steak that Red Sox fans get but you only want to pay 18 dollars for it.



I love to disagree with Katoy, but I am in total agreement on this aspect of his argument!


Actually, the argument is mostly BS.

The bigger markets have a huge financial advantage in local radio and TV money.  That's a matter of location and population, not ticket prices.

And as someone who regularly buys tickets to Pirates games and supports the team, katoy can kiss my you-know-what.
This is a very interesting topic and a wonderful perspective from both sides, in my opinion.  I think the truth lies in between and that seems to me to be St Louis.  Their ticket prices are reasonable but not cheap.  The product they put on the field is always competitive, which keeps fans interested and coming back year after year.  Their payroll is never absurdly low, nor is it traditionally in the top 7 or 8.  I think it's around 11th right now, slightly north of $100 million.  We can be St. Louis.  St Louis isn't some colossal market.  Their football stadium is empty and they couldn't sustain or support a basketball team.  Our management wants to be the A's or Rays though.
 
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Posted: 07/23/2014 11:32 AM

Re: Word. 


I think the "woe is me" type post about the haves and the have nots is overblown. I make no claim that a system where the big market teams can afford players that small market teams can't is fair... but it's been like this for years, and the small market teams haven't folded. Small market teams can win in MLB, I don't understand why it has to be equitable.

The bigger markets do have a rights fees advantage, but gate receipts are a big part of the picture. Besides, the Pirates get a share of the mega contracts that other teams are getting. If the Pirates continue to do well I think they can get a better TV contract despite having significant time remaining on the current deal. It'll never be equal but I don't know why it has to be.

Baseball is the most American sport of all, and America is a country that's founded on being unequal. It'd be great if everyone had an equal chance, but the games been rigged so long that it can never be unrigged.
THE IGNORE FUNCTION IS A BEAUTIFUL THING
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Posted: 07/23/2014 11:46 AM

Re: Word. 



"They haven't folded". That's your measure of success? It's a league. Who are the Yankees, Dodgers, Angels, etc...without it? I understand what the reality is, level footing across the sport should be the ideal. The NFL can do it. MLB doesn't need to do it the same way, but this slant is ridiculous. I'm not talking about what teams have done, or must do to compete in this ridiculous system. I'm just talking about the ridiculous system that necessitates these strategies.

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--- fishmong wrote:

I think the "woe is me" type post about the haves and the have nots is overblown. I make no claim that a system where the big market teams can afford players that small market teams can't is fair... but it's been like this for years, and the small market teams haven't folded. Small market teams can win in MLB, I don't understand why it has to be equitable.

The bigger markets do have a rights fees advantage, but gate receipts are a big part of the picture. Besides, the Pirates get a share of the mega contracts that other teams are getting. If the Pirates continue to do well I think they can get a better TV contract despite having significant time remaining on the current deal. It'll never be equal but I don't know why it has to be.

Baseball is the most American sport of all, and America is a country that's founded on being unequal. It'd be great if everyone had an equal chance, but the games been rigged so long that it can never be unrigged.

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 07/23/2014 11:56 AM

Re: Word. 



fishmong wrote: I think the "woe is me" type post about the haves and the have nots is overblown. I make no claim that a system where the big market teams can afford players that small market teams can't is fair... but it's been like this for years, and the small market teams haven't folded. Small market teams can win in MLB, I don't understand why it has to be equitable.

The bigger markets do have a rights fees advantage, but gate receipts are a big part of the picture. Besides, the Pirates get a share of the mega contracts that other teams are getting. If the Pirates continue to do well I think they can get a better TV contract despite having significant time remaining on the current deal. It'll never be equal but I don't know why it has to be.

Baseball is the most American sport of all, and America is a country that's founded on being unequal. It'd be great if everyone had an equal chance, but the games been rigged so long that it can never be unrigged.


Nobody is doing a "woe is me."  The point of the article that BAM linked is a rebuke of Selig's claim that things are "more fair than ever," as if he has done something (anything) to make life easier for small market teams.

The article, correctly in my opinion, made clear that things are the same now as they have been for a long time now -- with the big market teams playing an entirely different "game" from their small market counterparts.  The big market teams can sign the proven vets and take as many chances/gambles as they like, mostly without repercussion.  The small market teams have to work mostly with younger players, and mistakes with contracts can set them back for extended periods of time.  It doesn't make it impossible for small market teams to compete (usually in short windows of opportunity), but it does make it far more difficult to compete (especially consistently over time).  That's just how it is -- it certainly is NOT a level playing field, as Selig wrongly boasted.

Acknowledging the lack of a level playing field and calling BS on Selig's silly bragging is not the same as doing a "woe is me."  It is just recognizing the state of the game, which isn't likely to change (and, contrary to his self-serving claim, didn't change one bit under Selig's tenure).

I'd also add that some part of the Pirates' current success, and an important reason why the minor league system is stocked right now, was because of an ingenious strategy of over-slotting young players to convince them to take the money rather than go to college (e.g., Josh Bell).  Of course, this strategy is now history, as the big market teams moved quickly to close this loophole by implementing a pool system.  That advantage is now gone.

And, of course, the LAST thing I want to hear is any suggestion that the problem isn't structural and a direct product of the current financial structure of the game, but is instead somehow MY fault -- because as a Pirates fan I don't pay enough for tickets when I go to the games.  I could go on, but I think "kiss my ass" covers it as nicely as I can say it.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 07/23/2014 12:05 PM

Re: Word. 


The NFL does it because the have 16 games and every team is on national TV. Baseball's local TV contracts don't allow for pooled revenue like football does. Several teams have equity stakes in RSN's so it's not as easy as simply pooling 100% of those revenues.

I'd love it if the Indians could have afforded to pay CC Sabathia and Victor Martinez instead of trading them, but I don't begrudge those guys for making money in New York and Boston. The Indians are still there, I can still take my family to see a game there. I don't root for the Indians because they win titles, I root for the Indians because I was born and raised in Northern Ohio and I don't give a damn about the whole state of Michigan.

MLB isn't fair!!!!!!!!! Life isn't fair!!!!!!! It's still fun to go to baseball games!!!!!!
THE IGNORE FUNCTION IS A BEAUTIFUL THING
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Posted: 07/23/2014 12:09 PM

Re: Word. 


Your forced association with the city of Cleveland is punishment enough.  tongue

___________

 

  

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Posted: 07/23/2014 12:22 PM

Re: Word. 



gr1111 wrote:
fishmong wrote: I think the "woe is me" type post about the haves and the have nots is overblown. I make no claim that a system where the big market teams can afford players that small market teams can't is fair... but it's been like this for years, and the small market teams haven't folded. Small market teams can win in MLB, I don't understand why it has to be equitable.

The bigger markets do have a rights fees advantage, but gate receipts are a big part of the picture. Besides, the Pirates get a share of the mega contracts that other teams are getting. If the Pirates continue to do well I think they can get a better TV contract despite having significant time remaining on the current deal. It'll never be equal but I don't know why it has to be.

Baseball is the most American sport of all, and America is a country that's founded on being unequal. It'd be great if everyone had an equal chance, but the games been rigged so long that it can never be unrigged.


Nobody is doing a "woe is me."  The point of the article that BAM linked is a rebuke of Selig's claim that things are "more fair than ever," as if he has done something (anything) to make life easier for small market teams.

The article, correctly in my opinion, made clear that things are the same now as they have been for a long time now -- with the big market teams playing an entirely different "game" from their small market counterparts.  The big market teams can sign the proven vets and take as many chances/gambles as they like, mostly without repercussion.  The small market teams have to work mostly with younger players, and mistakes with contracts can set them back for extended periods of time.  It doesn't make it impossible for small market teams to compete (usually in short windows of opportunity), but it does make it far more difficult to compete (especially consistently over time).  That's just how it is -- it certainly is NOT a level playing field, as Selig wrongly boasted.

Acknowledging the lack of a level playing field and calling BS on Selig's silly bragging is not the same as doing a "woe is me."  It is just recognizing the state of the game, which isn't likely to change (and, contrary to his self-serving claim, didn't change one bit under Selig's tenure).

I'd also add that some part of the Pirates' current success, and an important reason why the minor league system is stocked right now, was because of an ingenious strategy of over-slotting young players to convince them to take the money rather than go to college (e.g., Josh Bell).  Of course, this strategy is now history, as the big market teams moved quickly to close this loophole by implementing a pool system.  That advantage is now gone.

And, of course, the LAST thing I want to hear is any suggestion that the problem isn't structural and a direct product of the current financial structure of the game, but is instead somehow MY fault -- because as a Pirates fan I don't pay enough for tickets when I go to the games.  I could go on, but I think "kiss my ass" covers it as nicely as I can say it.
Tim Williams is a bit dramatic in my opinion. The small market teams have a much lower margin for error but that doesn't stop them from being in the playoff race.

The Seattle Mariners outbid the Yankees for Cano, the Pirates outbid the Yankees for Russel Martin. More teams have money than ever before. As a business Selig is right, baseball is better than ever. I posted about MLBAM which pays each team a dividend of 7-8 million annually. If they decided to spin it off it would bring 150-200 million dollars to all 30 teams.

Tim Williams doesn't like the slotting system because it stops the Pirates from drafting "sexy" prospects that get his site clicks. I think it's a better system than the one that saw the Red Sox continually go overslot more and more. That same slotting system brought competitive balance picks which I think are great.

The Pirates or Indians will never be able to sign the Robinson Cano superstar, but the Indians can sign Carlos Santana, Michael Brantley, Jason Kipnis, and Yan Gomes for good contracts and can draft and develop Francisco Lindor, Tyler Naquin, and Clint Frazier and build a nice team. Sure it'd be easier to just sign the top FA's every year, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.
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Posted: 07/23/2014 12:28 PM

Re: Word. 



fishmong wrote:
gr1111 wrote:
fishmong wrote: I think the "woe is me" type post about the haves and the have nots is overblown. I make no claim that a system where the big market teams can afford players that small market teams can't is fair... but it's been like this for years, and the small market teams haven't folded. Small market teams can win in MLB, I don't understand why it has to be equitable.

The bigger markets do have a rights fees advantage, but gate receipts are a big part of the picture. Besides, the Pirates get a share of the mega contracts that other teams are getting. If the Pirates continue to do well I think they can get a better TV contract despite having significant time remaining on the current deal. It'll never be equal but I don't know why it has to be.

Baseball is the most American sport of all, and America is a country that's founded on being unequal. It'd be great if everyone had an equal chance, but the games been rigged so long that it can never be unrigged.


Nobody is doing a "woe is me."  The point of the article that BAM linked is a rebuke of Selig's claim that things are "more fair than ever," as if he has done something (anything) to make life easier for small market teams.

The article, correctly in my opinion, made clear that things are the same now as they have been for a long time now -- with the big market teams playing an entirely different "game" from their small market counterparts.  The big market teams can sign the proven vets and take as many chances/gambles as they like, mostly without repercussion.  The small market teams have to work mostly with younger players, and mistakes with contracts can set them back for extended periods of time.  It doesn't make it impossible for small market teams to compete (usually in short windows of opportunity), but it does make it far more difficult to compete (especially consistently over time).  That's just how it is -- it certainly is NOT a level playing field, as Selig wrongly boasted.

Acknowledging the lack of a level playing field and calling BS on Selig's silly bragging is not the same as doing a "woe is me."  It is just recognizing the state of the game, which isn't likely to change (and, contrary to his self-serving claim, didn't change one bit under Selig's tenure).

I'd also add that some part of the Pirates' current success, and an important reason why the minor league system is stocked right now, was because of an ingenious strategy of over-slotting young players to convince them to take the money rather than go to college (e.g., Josh Bell).  Of course, this strategy is now history, as the big market teams moved quickly to close this loophole by implementing a pool system.  That advantage is now gone.

And, of course, the LAST thing I want to hear is any suggestion that the problem isn't structural and a direct product of the current financial structure of the game, but is instead somehow MY fault -- because as a Pirates fan I don't pay enough for tickets when I go to the games.  I could go on, but I think "kiss my ass" covers it as nicely as I can say it.
Tim Williams is a bit dramatic in my opinion. The small market teams have a much lower margin for error but that doesn't stop them from being in the playoff race.

The Seattle Mariners outbid the Yankees for Cano, the Pirates outbid the Yankees for Russel Martin. More teams have money than ever before. As a business Selig is right, baseball is better than ever. I posted about MLBAM which pays each team a dividend of 7-8 million annually. If they decided to spin it off it would bring 150-200 million dollars to all 30 teams.

Tim Williams doesn't like the slotting system because it stops the Pirates from drafting "sexy" prospects that get his site clicks. I think it's a better system than the one that saw the Red Sox continually go overslot more and more. That same slotting system brought competitive balance picks which I think are great.

The Pirates or Indians will never be able to sign the Robinson Cano superstar, but the Indians can sign Carlos Santana, Michael Brantley, Jason Kipnis, and Yan Gomes for good contracts and can draft and develop Francisco Lindor, Tyler Naquin, and Clint Frazier and build a nice team. Sure it'd be easier to just sign the top FA's every year, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.


If you think that what we have is anything close to a level playing field, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 07/23/2014 12:33 PM

Re: Word. 


No... it's far far from an even playing field.

I just don't feel like it has to be totally fair for baseball to be as good as it's ever been.
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