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Should the Pirate trade for.....

Posted: 07/12/2014 6:54 AM

Should the Pirate trade for..... 


Just wondering what people are thinking going into the trade deadline.

    Should the Pirates trade for........

  1. Poll closed on 07/19/2014
  2. 1B Help: 8 votes
  3. SS Help: 0 votes
  4. Top of the Rotation Pitcher: 7 votes
  5. Closer: 3 votes
  6. No help is needed. Team won 94 game last season: 0 votes
  7. 1B or SS help, just dont trade any top prospects: 2 votes
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Posted: 07/12/2014 9:56 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


None of the above, they need bullpen help, but not really a closer.  The Pirates just need a good late inning, high leverage, arm.  I think they should also consider First Base help, but Lambo could provide that as he is close to returning to Indy.
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Posted: 07/12/2014 12:52 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 



cferrel3 wrote: None of the above, they need bullpen help, but not really a closer.  The Pirates just need a good late inning, high leverage, arm.  I think they should also consider First Base help, but Lambo could provide that as he is close to returning to Indy.
I agree. They don't need a closer per se, but they need someone else that can be counted on in the pen. Honestly, I'd be happy with a really good loogy even. Number 1 need would be an ace pitcher. They might get to the playoffs without one, but I can't see them winning a series without an ace.
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Posted: 07/12/2014 4:34 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 



cferrel3 wrote: None of the above, they need bullpen help, but not really a closer.  The Pirates just need a good late inning, high leverage, arm.  I think they should also consider First Base help, but Lambo could provide that as he is close to returning to Indy.
This.

JFC 2013 Bluegrass Jam
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Posted: 07/12/2014 6:53 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I see two priorities, as far as trying to address 2014 issues and deficiencies:

(1) Bullpen Help - Competent replacements for Gomez, Wilson, Frieri, and Pimentel. Hurdle is playing with a very short-handed bullpen, as none of these 4 should ever be in a close game - but unfortunately have to be. IMO, we have a couple of guys in Indy who could replace at least a couple of the above. I would swap Oliver and Mazzaro for Wilson (assuming he has an option) and Frieri (who I could care less if he has an option or not). Since getting Morris back is not likely an option, the above are likely the best available options.

(2) First Base - A short term solution to get at least a reasonable amount of production out of the position. It feels like we are playing shorthanded in many games, because first base has been a joke. Unfortunately, other than making another foolish near sighted trade for another retread, there aren't many viable near term options or solutions. It is probably too late in the season to make drastic position changes, so moving Alvarez or Walker to first base is probably not feasible. Even if he does get his swing together and starts really hitting, Lambo is still probably at least 3-4 weeks away - and that is likely a best case scenario. He is still rehabbing his way back to Indy. I just hope the team doesn't make another "Davis-like" trade, and sacrifice another top prospect for someone else's problem.
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Posted: 07/12/2014 7:04 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I think they need a horse at the front end of the rotation first and foremost AND another late inning arm. That goes for this year and next. Cole Hamels or David Price would be my targets if I were NH . Street would be nice, but there are other arms that could be had for less.
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Posted: 07/12/2014 7:33 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


The rotation could use an arm. To think Locke, Liriano, Volquez and Morton are the road to the playoffs is more optimism than I can muster.

If you think first base is our biggest need you need to get over the Ike Davis trade. The platoon isn't great, but it's serviceable. Pitching is foremost.

Last edited 07/12/2014 7:33 PM by Milfman

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Posted: 07/12/2014 7:38 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I don't think the team really needs a starter to be honest.  If Liriano returns to last years form the rotation is actually pretty good, however, if he struggles in his first couple starts back, then I'd go get an arm.  I completely trust Liriano, Cole, and Morton in the postseason because of last season.  Locke or Volquez (both have been very good) I wouldn't mind starting a game.
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Posted: 07/12/2014 10:10 PM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I agree with this, especially about the optimism. We need more pitching.

The legend of Lambo just grows and grows!


---------------------------------------------
--- Milfman wrote:

The rotation could use an arm. To think Locke, Liriano, Volquez and Morton are the road to the playoffs is more optimism than I can muster.

If you think first base is our biggest need you need to get over the Ike Davis trade. The platoon isn't great, but it's serviceable. Pitching is foremost.

---------------------------------------------

___________

 

  

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Posted: 07/13/2014 7:57 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I think they need another Arm. I am not sure Cole will be back and Liriano has not been the same since the AS last season. I am at the point where I trust Volquez more than anyone but Morton and maybe even more than him.

I also see a play for Houston Street or Doubront (sp) from Boston.

The main thing I think they need is a new 1B. One that can hit behind Cutch in the 4 hole. The Pirates 1B platoon ranks 23rd in average, 17th in OBP,  25th is SLG, and 24th in OPS.  They have also grounded into the 2nd most double plays in baseball. 

Also as good as the Pirates are at getting on base, here is where the Pirates rank for the players batting 4th this season:

Avg  28th
OBP 26th
SLG 28th
OPS 28th
 
The Pirates need help in that 4 spot and 1B looks like the only place that can get that done. Lambo is not good enough to make a real dent in that and I dont think Gaby and Davis will all of a sudden turn things around and be a top 15 hitting combo.

Production from the 5 slot is not great, but better and has the 2nd best OBP in baseball, but some of that is due to pitchers walking the 5 hole(5th most BB in baseball) to get to Pedro hitting 6th.

With the high OBP that the Pirates have, they need that middle of the order bat. The bad thing is there is not too many options at 1B. A better option maybe a guy like Beltre at 3B, but that will never happen. Although, a Pedro/Gabby 1B platoon hitting 6th is interesting.
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Posted: 07/13/2014 8:03 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I'd be fine if they didn't add anyone as long as they sign Martin for a few more years and keep Walker and Alvarez next year.
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Posted: 07/13/2014 8:14 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I just looked at Belte's stats and all I can say is WOW. He is hitting .350 or better with RISP and men on base. Can imagine how good that would make the Pirates hitting 4th? He is due a bunch of money $17 mil this season and $18 mil in 2015 with an option for $16 mil in 2016. If the Pirates were going to pay $12 for AJ they could at least that for Beltre. IF they could get Texas to eat 6 or 7 mil for 2015 then I would see if I could make the deal. You convert Pedro to a 1B in the off season to platoon with Gabby and im in.

I know it wont happen, but the Pirates have the ability to do it I think they could do it for Heridia and maybe another low A player.

I like Pedro to move to 1B because all but one of his errors are throwing. He has fantastic hands and I bet would be a natural for 1B. Also, I dont think it will hurt his value either. Just look at all the high priced 1B there are out there. He actually may have more value at 1B come FA. Just a thought.
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Posted: 07/13/2014 8:25 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


I hope I'm wrong, but I still don't think Pedro has any interest in first base, and Boras has no interest in letting him do it (even if Pedro wanted to). Pedro's payday is coming up, and third basemen make more than first basemen. Position matters.

I just don't think Pedro to first is an available option.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 07/13/2014 8:59 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 



gr1111 wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but I still don't think Pedro has any interest in first base, and Boras has no interest in letting him do it (even if Pedro wanted to). Pedro's payday is coming up, and third basemen make more than first basemen. Position matters.

I just don't think Pedro to first is an available option.
I am not sure position matters that much. Look at the 1B contacts and 3B contracts. There are plenty of 1B that make more than 3B. All it takes is one stupid team to overpay. I dont think position will play that big of a factor in the situation. I actually Pedro would have more value at 1B. He has great hands and would be a natural. His issue is his throwing and his inability to hit LHP. His HR total will drop down to about 25 this season most likely with a BA of under .250 and will lead the league in errors or be close. His value is not very high, but a move to 1B could help that.

I give it less than a 1% chance of happening, but I can dream right?? Thats free and wont cost Nutting anything.
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Posted: 07/13/2014 10:02 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 



gr1111 wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but I still don't think Pedro has any interest in first base, and Boras has no interest in letting him do it (even if Pedro wanted to). Pedro's payday is coming up, and third basemen make more than first basemen. Position matters.

I just don't think Pedro to first is an available option.
First baseman make considerably more than third baseman.

The numbers are a few years old but the average salary for a first baseman was 9.5 million and a third baseman 8.4 million.

No third baseman has an AAV of over 20 million while many first baseman make well above that.
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Posted: 07/13/2014 10:36 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 



katoy2j wrote:
gr1111 wrote: I hope I'm wrong, but I still don't think Pedro has any interest in first base, and Boras has no interest in letting him do it (even if Pedro wanted to). Pedro's payday is coming up, and third basemen make more than first basemen. Position matters.

I just don't think Pedro to first is an available option.
First baseman make considerably more than third baseman.

The numbers are a few years old but the average salary for a first baseman was 9.5 million and a third baseman 8.4 million.

No third baseman has an AAV of over 20 million while many first baseman make well above that.
Is the higher average salary for 3B a function of the lack of elite talent that plays the position? Guys who have huge contracts at 1B had elite bats(at least when the deal was signed). 3B is a more difficult position defensively, so the talent pool isn't as deep there. If Pedro starts to hit to the level that many think he can he'll get a bigger contract if he stays at 3B.

If Pedro has to be moved to 1B his value drops some, but it might make his offensive numbers rise like Encarnacion or Chris Davis
THE IGNORE FUNCTION IS A BEAUTIFUL THING
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Posted: 07/13/2014 11:06 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


Third base is the only position in baseball besides relievers without a 20 million dollar AAV player.

There are way better third baseman in baseball such as Adrian Beltre, Evan Longoria and David Wright to which Pedro can't really compare himself to any of them besides homers and RBI. They get paid a lot because they are elite offensive players and defensive players. These guys are around 16-18 million dollar players. Alvarez is well below these guys. I'd say he's 12-13 million a year guy as a third baseman. Alvarez certainly stands no chance to compare himself to any of these players.

Alvarez stands to make significantly more money if he moved to first base full time. He would be comparable to Adam Dunn and can probably demand 15 million or so at the position. Teams are willing to pay more for first baseman than they are for third baseman. It's a durability issue. Third base is a physically demanding position and players are moved off of there regularly. Lots of elite players were once third baseman. Pujols, Braun, Bautista, etc. These guys want to move off the position because they know they make more in the outfield or first base.

At this point I think it's pretty much assumed Alvarez will be the first baseman next season. They will probably make Josh Harrison an everyday player next year. The only question really is if its Walker or Harrison that plays third. Alvarez seems to have developed the Steve Sax disease at this point. It's a shame because he is a strong defensive player with great range but he's putting routine and easy throws into the 8th row so it's a mental issue that isn't likely to be corrected. First base is pretty easy to pick up. A move there lets him completely focus on hitting.

Last edited 07/13/2014 11:11 AM by katoy2j

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Posted: 07/13/2014 11:13 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


Alex Rodriguez 3b
10 years/$275M (2008-17)

  • 10 years/$275M (2008-17)
    • re-signed by NY Yankees as a free agent 12/13/07
    • $10M signing bonus ($2M paid upon approval, $1M paid each Jan. 15, 2009-2013, $3M paid Jan. 15, 2014)
THE IGNORE FUNCTION IS A BEAUTIFUL THING
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Posted: 07/13/2014 11:16 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 


How much do you suppose Longoria would make if he were on the open market?

How much will Machado make if he isn't moved to SS?

The lack of 20 million dollar players at 3rd is because it's a hard position to play and teams usually move elite bats off the position to preserve their offensive value.
THE IGNORE FUNCTION IS A BEAUTIFUL THING
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Posted: 07/13/2014 11:20 AM

Re: Should the Pirate trade for..... 



katoy2j wrote: Third base is the only position in baseball besides relievers without a 20 million dollar AAV player.

There are way better third baseman in baseball such as Adrian Beltre, Evan Longoria and David Wright to which Pedro can't really compare himself to any of them besides homers and RBI. They get paid a lot because they are elite offensive players and defensive players. These guys are around 16-18 million dollar players. Alvarez is well below these guys. I'd say he's 12-13 million a year guy as a third baseman. Alvarez certainly stands no chance to compare himself to any of these players.

Alvarez stands to make significantly more money if he moved to first base full time. He would be comparable to Adam Dunn and can probably demand 15 million or so at the position. Teams are willing to pay more for first baseman than they are for third baseman. It's a durability issue. Third base is a physically demanding position and players are moved off of there regularly. Lots of elite players were once third baseman. Pujols, Braun, Bautista, etc. These guys want to move off the position because they know they make more in the outfield or first base.

At this point I think it's pretty much assumed Alvarez will be the first baseman next season. They will probably make Josh Harrison an everyday player next year. The only question really is if its Walker or Harrison that plays third. Alvarez seems to have developed the Steve Sax disease at this point. It's a shame because he is a strong defensive player with great range but he's putting routine and easy throws into the 8th row so it's a mental issue that isn't likely to be corrected. First base is pretty easy to pick up. A move there lets him completely focus on hitting.

I'd get on board with all of that.  Let Alvarez learn first base and completely focus on hitting, have Harrison and Walker man 2nd and 3rd, and find a RH-hitting corner infield player with a decent bat for the bench.  That also allows you to have Lambo as a lefty bench bat and 4th outfielder/backup first baseman.  It also buys you some time to let Hanson and Bell develop at their own pace and you don't have to rush them.
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