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So, after two months and approx 140 ABs....

Posted: 06/11/2014 6:39 PM

So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


what is the verdict on Ike Davis?

Going into tonight, he has hit 6 doubles, 4 HRs, and 15 RBIs with the Pirates. 29 BBs and 24 Ks.
He has been pretty good defensively - not great, but better than I expected. Slugging percentage is a paltry .382 (Josh Harrison, by comparison is .475).

Other than the grand slam against the Cardinals, has he had a big hit when it mattered - with the game on the line? Tonight 0-2 so far, including a K with bases loaded.

In my opinion, he is what i expected at the time or trade - a mediocre hitting first baseman.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 10:45 PM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


What I would suggest is to not ask for an evaluation of players in the midst of a slump. You can pretty much complain about 90% of the leagues players because they tend to have prolonged slumps where there numbers are pedestrian. The best thing is to wait a few weeks because by then the player will likely of leveled himself off with his performance. He's in a 4 for 30 slump going into todays game. That stuff happens in a season. Most players will have 50 at bat stretches where they're awful. Edwin Encarnacion hit 2 homers in April. Then hit 16 homers in May. What was the difference? Absolutely nothing. Sometimes players run cold. Sometimes they run hot.

Davis has been fine. He'll go on a tear of hitting 5 homers in 10 games. I'm not worried about his slugging percentage. He has a very impressive .360 OBP with the Pirates. By the end of the year he'll have 20 homers.

Remember Charlie Morton was a problem in some peoples eyes. In 7 of his last 8 starts he's allowed 2 earned runs or less.

I think people really need to stop trying to create problems. Davis is fine. Is he a superstar? Of course not but those expectations weren't what he was traded for considering he was acquired for a AAA reliever. He's been as good as James Loney who some wanted to spend 20 million on. In essence he's been an average first baseman. Which is fine. The Sanchez and Davis platoon is good. In two weeks when Davis is out of his funk it likely will look much, much better.
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Posted: 06/12/2014 4:19 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


Yeah Davis is the least of the Pirates problems at this point. Yeah he is not Cabrera at first or Encarnacion or some big thumping 1st basemen.

 

But he is fine for now.

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Posted: 06/12/2014 4:48 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


"Davis has been fine. He'll go on a tear of hitting 5 homers in 10 games. I'm not worried about his slugging percentage."

Considering that is one more HR than he has hit in the last two months, what makes you think he is capable of hitting 5 homers in 10 games?

BTW, I wasn't judging him based on his current slump - the only thing that has suffered during this slump has been his batting average. The lack of power and run production has been there for two months now. 
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Posted: 06/12/2014 7:06 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


If we're still giving Pedro a pass, then Ike deserves one as well.  JMO
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 06/12/2014 7:40 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


Ideally Davis in a one season patch and we get someone better next year - or give Lambo a shot.
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Posted: 06/12/2014 9:11 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


For the record, I am not being critical of Davis cause he has been fine in my eyes. Not great but fine.

But 11HRs to 4, 35 RBIs to 15.

Ike Davis walks more, thats it.

That is the difference in my eyes. If Pedro had 4 HRs and 15 RBIs then I would be more criticial of him.

GhostOfPBG wrote: If we're still giving Pedro a pass, then Ike deserves one as well.  JMO
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Posted: 06/12/2014 9:23 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


"If we're still giving Pedro a pass, then Ike deserves one as well.  JMO'

Who is giving Alvarez a pass? His batting average, strikeouts, and errors are reasons I would never give him a lucrative extension, unless it was highly dependent on incentives and performance.

But, with that being said, to compare him to Davis is not going to be favorable for Davis. I could only dream that Davis had Alvarez's numbers.
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Posted: 06/12/2014 9:53 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


Pedro has almost double the ABs of Ike Davis though so to compare HR numbers and RBIs is not a fair comparison.  I can tell you they are separated in OPS by .015 and Pedro is leading the league in errors for the 3rd year in a row.

Anyways, I don't mean to spin this thread off in the wrong direction.  Personally, I just don't see Ike as a big culprit in our disappointing season thus far.  I think there's plenty of blame to go around and Ike wouldn't even crack my top 5.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 06/12/2014 10:23 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


Actually that is not true. Pedro has 263 Plate Appearances with 234 official ABs and Ike Davis has 195 PA and 164 total ABs between the Mets and Pirates. His total numbers are 5 HRs and 20 RBIS combined this season for Mets/Pirates.

So Alvarez is still clearly ahead in the HR and RBI totals even with him having 70 addition ABs which is not close to double.

GhostOfPBG wrote: Pedro has almost double the ABs of Ike Davis though so to compare HR numbers and RBIs is not a fair comparison.  I can tell you they are separated in OPS by .015 and Pedro is leading the league in errors for the 3rd year in a row.

Anyways, I don't mean to spin this thread off in the wrong direction.  Personally, I just don't see Ike as a big culprit in our disappointing season thus far.  I think there's plenty of blame to go around and Ike wouldn't even crack my top 5.
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Posted: 06/12/2014 11:01 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


For whatever reason neither Ike nor Pedro have been able to get the job done from the cleanup spot. Pirates have gotten just a .645 OPS from the 4 hole. Yet they mash from the 6th spot with a .910 OPS.
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Posted: 06/12/2014 11:09 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


Yep and that hurts especially with Cutch hitting 3 although he is on a tear at the moment. But he clearly is being pitched around wherever possible.

Whoever is hitting 4, needs to pick it up.
mjdouble wrote: For whatever reason neither Ike nor Pedro have been able to get the job done from the cleanup spot. Pirates have gotten just a .645 OPS from the 4 hole. Yet they mash from the 6th spot with a .910 OPS.
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Posted: 06/14/2014 10:37 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


I wonder how great McCutchen's numbers would be if he had any real protection around him in the lineup at all.  His very strong, very good career to date looks even better when you consider how little additional firepower the Pirates have had, in general, during his time with the team. 


As for Davis....meh.  He's been.......okay.  Certainly not terrible, definitely not great or anything near it.  A replacement level player or close to that description.  Eminently replaceable unless he gives reason to keep him. 

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Posted: 06/17/2014 10:51 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


I don't think the idea of protection really matters much.  Miguel Cabrera was great before Prince Fielder, with Prince Fielder behind him and after Prince Fielder left.

Unless a team is going to blatantly and consistently pitch around a player then it isn't going to change things much.  McCutchen wouldn't be much better.  He gets a lot of walks because he's a selective hitter.  Where his numbers stand to improve is in RBI because he has better hitters in front of him once Walker returns.

Ike Davis is a placeholder for Josh Bell in my opinion.  Looking back at what was given up with the trade finalized I see it as a bad move.  Andrew Lambo would of been comparable.  It was just badly managed from the get go.  You start out with Lambo and at least give him a chance.  If he fails then you can make the trade for Davis,  If he does well then you don't need to make a deal.

So the end result is that you paid Ishikawa a million dollars for a couple of weeks of work, traded a second round pick last year to get Ike Davis and pay him 3.5 million and then you still have no clue what you have with Lambo.

Davis has been fine but the likely result is that Lambo would of been fine too.  The team would of saved a lot of money and prospects.  Taylor may never amount to anything but that is outside the point.  He was considered a top 20 prospect in a deep system.  He would of been a top 10 prospect in a lot of teams systems.  You could of used that asset in another trade.

To me this is the scary part of what has happened with the Pirates recently.  It doesn't seem like a big deal to lose a prospect here or a prospect there but in the long run it is.  You had a player in your system that would likely of been as good if not better than Davis.  Instead you bypassed that player and traded assets and money.  So next year Davis will make around 5 million and Lambo would of made a tenth of that.  That's 4.5 million in wasted opportunity.  The team will have a payroll and you would of been much better off with Lambo at 500K and the ability to use that extra 4.5 million in free agency than you are with Davis and his salary.  You also still have Taylor in the system. 

Long term the position was going to be Bell's either way.  The guy is a monster.  A switch hitter that hits for average, draws a decent amount of walks and has excellent strike zone judgement.  Toss in the fact that his power continues to develop and you have a potential superstar.  He reminds me of the Texas version of Mark Teixeira with better strike zone recognition.  I don't know why he isn't in AA right now to be honest.  I think he has a chance to reach the majors a year from now as the everyday first baseman.  While he doesn't have the athleticism that someone like Polanco has he has a special bat.

That's what makes this all a bad idea.  If Lambo was the first baseman he's building his value and a year from now he's making the minimum salary and he's seen as an asset in trade.  Or he can at least play the outfield as well which makes him useful at a couple of spots as a pinch hitter.  The problem with Davis is that a year from now he has little to no trade value because of his salary and he only plays first base.  So if Bell pushes his way through the system like Polanco has then you're in a really difficult spot.  Gaby Sanchez is an elite bat against lefties so he would be great to keep around.  However you can't have 3 first baseman on the roster.

Again the issue is not that Davis is a bad player but all of the dominoes that fell with acquiring Davis.  Long term if you want to be sustainably successful you can't piss away assets.  Not only is Taylor and the money spent on Davis and Ishikawa gone forever but you still have no idea what you have in Lambo.  You also have no leverage in a trade now if you want to move him.  He's going to be seen as a guy a team will be willing to take a chance on.  However they won't give up much to get him.  He's a high upside, low risk gamble.  Those are the players the Pirates should be finding and not giving away.  Eventually Lambo will probably get a shot with someone and if he plays at a league average level it will make this chain of events look awful.  If he plays at a higher level than that then it's a colossal mistake of roster mismanagement.

In the last two years I've seen some bad trends.  When Marlon Byrd was acquired the Mets had zero leverage.  The Pirates claimed him and Mets could trade him to the Pirates or trade him to nobody.  Vic Black was more than a fair return for a one month rental.  Instead the Pirates gave them Dilson Herrera as well.  Herrera has been excellent this season and is a top 10 prospect in a deep Mets system.  Taylor was a top 20 prospect in the Pirates system.  Most people just think oh well this player is just an A baller who cares.  Well Polanco was once just an A baller as well.  Herrera trade value wise is pretty comparable to Nick Kingham.  If you were to offer up Herrera and Taylor in a trade you would get back a very good player that you really needed.  Both assets are wasted now.  I don't think there was any need to trade Herrera as I highly doubt the Mets would rather have nothing with Byrd leaving as a free agent instead of Vic Black.  They also had a player as good as Davis in the organization in Lambo and they simply didn't give him an opportunity.  That cost them Taylor.  They aren't giving away the elite guys which is great but they're crippling their prospect depth by trading away good prospects with no real need to.  Guys who are projected to be solid or better major league players.  At the very least they would be attractive trade chips down the road.  Instead they are gone and for very little reason in my opinion.  The loss of either was unnecessary.
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Posted: 06/17/2014 11:21 AM

Re: So, after two months and approx 140 ABs.... 


That little run with Byrd was worth Herrera and Black to me. I said at the time they overpaid, but they made a play and still have the top system in baseball. I don't think we should make the blockbuster system gutting deals, but Byrd gave us a very nice bat for the playoff push and continued into the playoff series. I make a similar trade again this season. It's not like the talent coming out of Latin America is going to disappear. We'll have another Dilson Herra shortly. We may already and we're just waiting for a little breakout.

Completely agree about Lambo, but I don't want to start that up again.

Last edited 06/17/2014 11:22 AM by BAMSTEELERFAN

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