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R Martin

Posted: 06/11/2014 4:52 AM

R Martin 


Interesting comments by Coonelly on the Pirates pregame show yesterday when questioned about Martin.

He said the Pirates have every intention on trying to resign R Martin and they know what he means to this team and how important he is. Basically said they have not approached him at this point because they don't feel the timing is appropriate in the middle of the season but they would like to resign him.

Now that could have simply been an answer that everyone wanted to hear but who knows. I hope it is true though because losing Martin would be a big blow in my opinion.

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Posted: 06/11/2014 6:09 AM

Re: R Martin 


I could not agree more. Martin is the one guy I would consider slightly overpaying. I understand a team like the Pirates NEVEr wants to do it, but he's integral mainly because of the way he handles the staff, defense, and framing. He's also a good leader it seems. I was higher than most on Sanchez, but his throwing has become a major concern to me, and I don't think his stronger bat offsets it. Defense still seems undervalued so maybe they can get him a little cheaper than the McCann deal. I wonder if 40M over 4 years would do it.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 6:15 AM

Re: R Martin 


Martin is a must sign. As good as Cutch is, Martin might be the real MVP to this team. The Pirates should be in touch with his agent right now trying to work out a deal. If they wait until the offseason, it will be a huge mistake.

My guess is they wait until the off season and will lose Martin and we will hear the same excuses, " We offered him what we thought was a fair contact, and to be honest was more that we were able too. However, it takes two sides to sign a contract. We wish Russel well with his new team. We also feel like we have the players within our orginization that can step in an give us the similar results to what we got from Martin".

The we will hear they offered him $1 or 2 mill less a year or something like that.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 7:02 AM

Re: R Martin 


The difference of the team when Martin was on the DL, versus how they looked when he returned, was clear to my eye.

Pay him.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 06/11/2014 7:21 AM

Re: R Martin 


Are they able to offer him a Qualifying offer? How does that exactly work. I know they could with Burnett but I am not sure what the exact rules are around the QO.

I am certainly a big fan of resigning him even at 10 or 11 million a season and that might even be low number based on what McCann got. I don't think he is worth McCann money because his offense is not in McCann's category. But because of his defense he is crucial to this team. I wouldn't put him ahead of Cutch, but he might be 2nd most important player on the team.

As for T Sanchez... well he can make a fine number 2 catcher if you can resign Martin.  I am not high on Sanchez simply because of his throwing. He is brutal in that aspect. So bad that I would not mind them exploring a position switch for him to maybe 1st with him as a platoon option at 1st base if Gabby gets too expensive. Yeah Gabby is a really good platoon partner at 1st but if they can save his salary-prob 4 mil next year and apply that to resigning Martin then I am ok with moving on from Gabby. Maybe I am completely off base with this thought but I just can't see him being the everyday catcher at this point due to his throwing.

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Posted: 06/11/2014 7:35 AM

Re: R Martin 


I think they can make a qualifying offer after this year.  If he accepts it, that would keep him here one more year. 

No guarantee that he accepts it, however, and even if he does it is only for one year.

I see no reason why Martin can't ask for a deal similar to that received by Brian McCann from the Yankees, at or around $17 million per year.  Even if he doesn't get that, $14-15 million per year is clearly not out of the question.  The only question will be how many years he gets, 3 to 5 perhaps?

___________

 

  

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Posted: 06/11/2014 7:38 AM

Re: R Martin 


That Tony Sanchez pick just keeps looking better and better.  I remember being told on this board a year or two back that Tony Sanchez was a surefire everyday starter at catcher who was just being groomed until Martin finished his contract.  At worst, Sanchez was an elite defensive catcher with a respectable bat.  Seems like management might disagree.
 
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Posted: 06/11/2014 8:12 AM

Re: R Martin 



gr1111 wrote: I think they can make a qualifying offer after this year.  If he accepts it, that would keep him here one more year. 

No guarantee that he accepts it, however, and even if he does it is only for one year.

I see no reason why Martin can't ask for a deal similar to that received by Brian McCann from the Yankees, at or around $17 million per year.  Even if he doesn't get that, $14-15 million per year is clearly not out of the question.  The only question will be how many years he gets, 3 to 5 perhaps?

I don't think he gets McCann money simply due to offense and the team involved. TheYankees overpay everyone so with them not being in the bidding that will drive down the money right off the bat. LOL.

I do agree I would not be suprised to see him get 14 or 15 million though from a team like the Dodgers or the Angels or even a team like the Mets with some young pitchers that want his elite defense behind the plate. Now I say this not knowing any of those 3 teams catcher situations off the top of my head. Just throwing out big spending teams.

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Posted: 06/11/2014 8:19 AM

Re: R Martin 



gr1111 wrote: I think they can make a qualifying offer after this year.  If he accepts it, that would keep him here one more year. 

No guarantee that he accepts it, however, and even if he does it is only for one year.

I see no reason why Martin can't ask for a deal similar to that received by Brian McCann from the Yankees, at or around $17 million per year.  Even if he doesn't get that, $14-15 million per year is clearly not out of the question.  The only question will be how many years he gets, 3 to 5 perhaps?
The Qualifying Offer is determined by the average of the top 125 paid players.  Last year it was 14.1 million.  Next year it will be 15+ million.  I don't see the Pirates paying that.  They will go no higher than 2 years / $20 million.  I believe Martin is key as well but they may as well see what prospects they can get for him now as his price will be too high for the Pirates.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 8:28 AM

Re: R Martin 


I would not be surprised to see Martin Traded at the deadline this year if the Pirates are out of the race, and even if they are close, if the price is right.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 8:28 AM

Re: R Martin 



Sangue wrote:
gr1111 wrote: I think they can make a qualifying offer after this year.  If he accepts it, that would keep him here one more year. 

No guarantee that he accepts it, however, and even if he does it is only for one year.

I see no reason why Martin can't ask for a deal similar to that received by Brian McCann from the Yankees, at or around $17 million per year.  Even if he doesn't get that, $14-15 million per year is clearly not out of the question.  The only question will be how many years he gets, 3 to 5 perhaps?
The Qualifying Offer is determined by the average of the top 125 paid players.  Last year it was 14.1 million.  Next year it will be 15+ million.  I don't see the Pirates paying that.  They will go no higher than 2 years / $20 million.  I believe Martin is key as well but they may as well see what prospects they can get for him now as his price will be too high for the Pirates.


Ironically, the Pirates may make the QO to Martin only if they know he won't accept it (since he can get more for longer elsewhere).  If he rejects it, the Pirates get a draft pick for their trouble.

I think the Pirates might offer as high as 3 years/$40 million.  I don't think RM will accept that, however, as somebody will offer him more.  I also think the Pirates know that too, so they can make that sort of offer and then tell the fans how hard they are working to build a team.    Good PR.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 06/11/2014 9:01 AM

Re: R Martin 



gr1111 wrote:
Sangue wrote:
gr1111 wrote: I think they can make a qualifying offer after this year.  If he accepts it, that would keep him here one more year. 

No guarantee that he accepts it, however, and even if he does it is only for one year.

I see no reason why Martin can't ask for a deal similar to that received by Brian McCann from the Yankees, at or around $17 million per year.  Even if he doesn't get that, $14-15 million per year is clearly not out of the question.  The only question will be how many years he gets, 3 to 5 perhaps?
The Qualifying Offer is determined by the average of the top 125 paid players.  Last year it was 14.1 million.  Next year it will be 15+ million.  I don't see the Pirates paying that.  They will go no higher than 2 years / $20 million.  I believe Martin is key as well but they may as well see what prospects they can get for him now as his price will be too high for the Pirates.


Ironically, the Pirates may make the QO to Martin only if they know he won't accept it (since he can get more for longer elsewhere).  If he rejects it, the Pirates get a draft pick for their trouble.

I think the Pirates might offer as high as 3 years/$40 million.  I don't think RM will accept that, however, as somebody will offer him more.  I also think the Pirates know that too, so they can make that sort of offer and then tell the fans how hard they are working to build a team.    Good PR.
That would be a terrible deal for the Pirates. I love Russell Martin. I hope he can stay a Pirate. There is no way he is going to maintain his level of play for 3 seasons beyond this one. I think they should offer him the QO and hope that suppresses the market enough to get him for for 2 years.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 9:05 AM

Re: R Martin 


True, but giving the extra year or two is clearly something that other teams will do.  Somebody will give him at least three years, and probably well more than $40M..

___________

 

  

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Posted: 06/11/2014 9:16 AM

Re: R Martin 


It's worth talking about, but the kind of contract Martin is likely to get on the market (maybe 3 or 4 years at $15 million-plus) is unreasonable for a team with the Pirates' revenue. Sharp decline will probably come on the offensive end before his next contract is done. He needs to get what he can while he still can.

Sanchez will likely grow into a solid-average catcher with a decent bat. He still has the tools to be a very good defensive catcher, but he's old enough that we're getting closer to "is what he will be" (understanding that catchers tend to develop later than others).

Also, when Martin went on the DL, Pittsburgh was 9-15. When he came back, they were 20-26. 11-11 without him and then 10-8 since he's been back. So a total of 19-23 with him and 11-11 without him. I don't see that big of a difference
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Posted: 06/11/2014 9:55 AM

Re: R Martin 



panthers2533 wrote:

Interesting comments by Coonelly on the Pirates pregame show yesterday when questioned about Martin.

He said the Pirates have every intention on trying to resign R Martin and they know what he means to this team and how important he is. Basically said they have not approached him at this point because they don't feel the timing is appropriate in the middle of the season but they would like to resign him.

Now that could have simply been an answer that everyone wanted to hear but who knows. I hope it is true though because losing Martin would be a big blow in my opinion.

What else is he going to say to the media when specifically asked about Martin? He's not going to say we're not interested or we have no hope of signing him. We'll see what actually happens, but what he said is totally meaningless, either way.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 10:15 AM

Re: R Martin 


If the Pirates were going to extend Martin they would be doing it right now as opposed to the end of the year.  It would be an 80-85% of market value deal that would be an insurance policy against Martin getting hurt or performing poorly.  The Pirates are not going to compete with all of the other teams when Martin becomes a free agent.  Trading him in June/July is unfortunately the best move long term for the team.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 10:26 AM

Re: R Martin 



BBG65 wrote:
panthers2533 wrote:

Interesting comments by Coonelly on the Pirates pregame show yesterday when questioned about Martin.

He said the Pirates have every intention on trying to resign R Martin and they know what he means to this team and how important he is. Basically said they have not approached him at this point because they don't feel the timing is appropriate in the middle of the season but they would like to resign him.

Now that could have simply been an answer that everyone wanted to hear but who knows. I hope it is true though because losing Martin would be a big blow in my opinion.

What else is he going to say to the media when specifically asked about Martin? He's not going to say we're not interested or we have no hope of signing him. We'll see what actually happens, but what he said is totally meaningless, either way.
Yeah I agree which is why I added the part of my post that I underlined and bolded.

Last edited 06/11/2014 10:29 AM by panthers2533

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Posted: 06/11/2014 10:43 AM

Re: R Martin 


I think the Pirates would be nuts to try and bring Sanchez back.  I say this because of realistically what it would take in both dollars and term.

I'd imagine a Martin deal starts at 5 years and 60 million.  I don't see him getting many more years and perhaps a team goes 6 for him.  His salary could go as high as 70 million though over 5 years.

Look if Martin wants to come back for 2 years and maybe 3 then I'm sure the Pirates would want to have him back.  This will be his last chance at a big contract so I don't see that happening.

Signing a catcher of all positions into his mid 30's is asking for trouble.  The Yankees have already admitted that McCann will be moving to first base in a few years once Teixiera's contract is done. 

Also I don't understand the issues with Tony Sanchez as the everyday starter.  He's started 20 games for the Pirates this season.  Of which the Pirates are 10-10.  So it's not as if the team is decimated by him playing.  With Stewart, the team is 5-10 and when Martin starts the team is 15-14.  Considering that Sanchez will likely continue to improve as he gets more reps it makes perfect sense to go with Sanchez at 500K then blow your brains out to sign a catcher over 30 long term.

While Martin is better and nobody will deny this, Sanchez has much more room to grow.  He's hitting for power in AAA.

The team would be much better off letting Martin go and handing the job to Sanchez and use the money to sign a pitcher.  I could see a guy like Justin Masterson fitting here.  Pitches a lot of innings, minimizes homers, high ground ball guy, would benefit from the NL.  I would like to see Liriano brought back as well because when he's on he's dynamic and a lefty in PNC is essential.  I think a rotation in no particular order of Cole, Masterson, Liriano, Morton and eventually Taillon would be excellent. 

I would give Masterson 5 years and 70 million and Liriano 3 years and 27 million.  That would still allow the team to have a 75ish million dollar payroll next season with the guys leaving as free agents and all the raises to key arbitration players like Walker, Alvarez, Melancon, Davis, Sanchez, Watson, Harrison and Stewart.  Non tenders would be Snider and Gomez.  Then if the payroll rises further you can address the shortstop position.  You could probably do it anyway with a really good player as the payroll will probably rise to the mid 80's anyway next season and you can always backload a contract of someone like Masterson to create room.

Last edited 06/11/2014 10:45 AM by katoy2j

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Posted: 06/11/2014 11:03 AM

Re: R Martin 



katoy2j wrote:
I would give Masterson 5 years and 70 million and Liriano 3 years and 27 million.  
That's a lot of money for two guys that aren't pitching very well right now.  I dumped both of them from my Fantasy team.  I'd rather give the $97 million for 4 years for a great player as opposed to dividing it up between these two down year players.
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Posted: 06/11/2014 11:46 AM

Re: R Martin 


The Pirates are always going to have to target down year pitchers.

Looking at Masterson again his velocity is way down though so I probably wouldn't do that deal because of the term and dollars.

I would definitely want Liriano back though if he can be had for 3/27. Even if he just gives you a 4.25 ERA you're probably still getting value. The possibility always exists he can post a sub 3.00 ERA as well so it makes it a great gamble.

Instead of Masterson maybe Brandon McCarthy is a batter bet. He's having a down season ERA wise but his peripherals are very, very good with a 2.75 xFIP. He's just getting murdered in that ballpark. Plus his velocity is way up. Maybe go 3/24 for him.

Find a way to trade for DiDi Gregorius and you have a team that in my opinion would be massively underperforming if they didn't win the division.

Rotation - Cole, Morton, Liriano, McCarthy, Locke (Taillon midseason), Kingham and Cumpton as your depth options in AAA

Bullpen - Melancon, Watson, Wilson, Sadler, Hughes, Pimentel and a high upside guy you could potentially slide into the pen

Lineup - Polanco, Walker, McCutchen, Alvarez, Marte, Davis, T. Sanchez, Gregorius

Bench - Stewart, Harrison, Mercer, Tabata, G. Sanchez

That's a strong all around team and comes in at just under 70 million in payroll. Theoretically you could trade Tabata and use Mel Rojas as the 4th outfielder or even Lambo since Marte and Polanco can both play centerfield easily. That would free up an extra 4 million dollars. As well as the 1.5 that Stewart would likely make you could resign Martin for 13-14 million a season and still have the payroll below 80 million. The issue with Martin in my opinion isn't the money as much as it is the term. If he's willing to stay for 3 years then I would sign him. I just can't see him willing to do that however.
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