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Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists

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Posted: 10/25/2013 10:41 AM

Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


Three Pirates were named Gold Glove finalists by Rawlings today: center fielder Andrew McCutchen, left fielder Starling Marte and catcher Russell Martin.

Team defense played a significant role in the team's climb to 94 wins this season.

Martin was a clear standout behind the plate, and the combination of McCutchen and Marte in center and left provided one of the best tandems in baseball.

The winners will be named Oct. 29 at 8 p.m. in a special hour-long edition of “Baseball Tonight” on ESPN2.

McCutchen is the most recent Pirates player to win a Gold Glove, doing so after the 2012 season. Martin last won a Gold Glove with the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2007.

Martin is a finalist at catcher along with Yadier Molina of the St. Louis Cardinals and A.J. Ellis of the Dodgers.

Molina has won every year since 2008 -- the longest active consecutive streak of Gold Glove wins.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sp...ies/20131025021

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Posted: 10/25/2013 12:05 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



gr1111 wrote:

Three Pirates were named Gold Glove finalists by Rawlings today: center fielder Andrew McCutchen, left fielder Starling Marte and catcher Russell Martin.

Team defense played a significant role in the team's climb to 94 wins this season.

Martin was a clear standout behind the plate, and the combination of McCutchen and Marte in center and left provided one of the best tandems in baseball.

The winners will be named Oct. 29 at 8 p.m. in a special hour-long edition of “Baseball Tonight” on ESPN2.

McCutchen is the most recent Pirates player to win a Gold Glove, doing so after the 2012 season. Martin last won a Gold Glove with the Los Angeles Dodgers in 2007.

Martin is a finalist at catcher along with Yadier Molina of the St. Louis Cardinals and A.J. Ellis of the Dodgers.

Molina has won every year since 2008 -- the longest active consecutive streak of Gold Glove wins.

http://www.post-gazette.com/sp...ies/20131025021

Crazy stat, Marte led all MLB LF in errors and Cutch led all MLB CF in errors.

As a note Pedro also lead all 3B in errors as well.
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Posted: 10/25/2013 12:09 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



vinnybravo wrote:

As a note Pedro also lead all 3B in errors as well.


Pedro led the major leagues in errors, with 27.  Nobody else had more than 22.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 10/26/2013 8:36 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



gr1111 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:

As a note Pedro also lead all 3B in errors as well.


Pedro led the major leagues in errors, with 27.  Nobody else had more than 22.
Stop it!  He's an elite defender and you know it! tongue
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 10/26/2013 11:10 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


Shows that most of the time better defenders make more errors since they make plays on balls the average player couldn't make.  Food for thought.
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Posted: 10/29/2013 5:39 PM

RE: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


no pirates win it
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Posted: 10/29/2013 6:23 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


Carlos Gomez deserved the award in CF over Cutch, so the voters got that one right.

However, Carlos Gonzales winning the award over Starling Marte is an embarrassment.  Marte is BY FAR the better defender of the two, and Gonzales missed half of the season with an injury.  Until the league does something about this, the award will continue to be an embarrassment.  Even if Gonzales plays the whole season Marte deserved to win, but the fact that Gonzales missed half of the season and still won makes it worse.  This should have been Marte's first of at least 6 straight with the Pirates, instead he was robbed.

Also, technically Russell Martin deserved the Catching Gold Glove over Molina this season statistically, however, Yadier Molina is arguably the best defensive catcher in MLB history.  So I can live with that one since statistically they were pretty close with Martin only having a slight edge.
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Posted: 10/29/2013 7:26 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


Looking at the numbers the voters only got 9 of the 16 position players correct (pitchers are a crap shoot, not enough chances).  First Base is also harder to judge, although this year there were two obvious standouts in Rizzo and Napoli. 

The two most egregious picks were Adam Jones for CF in the AL and Carlos Gonzales for LF in the NL.  Gonzales is a very good defensive LF, the problem here is that he missed a ton of time with injury, and although he is very good Marte is the far superior defensive player.  As long as Marte is in the same league, Gonzales should not win another Gold Glove.  On Adam Jones, he is a brutal defensive CF.  He is actually one of the worst everyday centerfielders in the entire league defensively, and he won the award.  He is very athletic, so makes the highlight reel plays once and awhile (plus he can hit), that is why he won the award.  Which is a shame.



Here is how the awards should have looked for this season:

AL:
P - R.A. Dickey
C - Salvador Perez*
1b - Mike Napoli
2b - Dustin Pedroia*
SS - Alcides Escobar or Yunel Escobar (really close)
3b - Manny Machado*
LF - Alex Gordon* (although David Murphy was close)
CF - Leonys Martin/Jacoby Ellsbury/Colby Rasmus (any of the three could have won)
RF - Shane Victorino*

NL:
P - Patrick Corbin
C - Russell Martin
1b - Anthony Rizzo
2b - Darwin Barney
SS - Andrelton Simmons*
3b - Nolan Arenado*
LF - Starling Marte (and it wasn't close)
CF - Carlos Gomez*
RF - Gerardo Parra*


*Players that actually won the award.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 8:34 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


I really hate it when fans say that a given player "is the best in major league history" when their entire body of work hasn't been registered yet.  Molina, to be sure, is an excellent defender and has become a very good hitter and if he can keep it up for another 3 or 4 seasons at his current rate, he might even get into Cooperstown.  But the best defensive catcher in history?  Ever heard of Johnny Bench? Then there was that Carter guy up in Montreal.  How 'bout Pudge Rodriguez?  Juicer or not he was phenomenal.  I'd also take Ron Karkovice in terms of glovework and throwing our runners, though he was a poor hitter.  Tony Pena could really play the position, too.  And so on. 


The only really egregious thing, to my eyes, about this year's Gold Glove is Gonzales getting it over Marte.  Marte, right now, is probably the best defensive left fielder in the National League if not in all of baseball.  Which is one big reason why I give him more of a pass for his undisciplined hitting and other occasional lapses than I do Pedro Alvarez, though Alvarez' glove is significantly improved and obviously there's no arguing with his power. 


Also, I get really, REALLY tired of know-it-all sabreheads who predictably cry foul every single year over the Gold Glove when that award is determined by managers and coaches who see these players every single day from Spring Training to the World Series.  Is politics and sentiment sometimes involved in their voting?  Sure, obviously.  But the beauty of the Gold Glove is that it is an award bestowed by one's peers in one's own industry, the people who compete with and against these players.  I'm thinking that such people know a thing or three about who can pick it and who can't.

Last edited 10/30/2013 8:35 AM by williamjpellas

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Posted: 10/30/2013 9:33 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


William......I am far from a sabrehead... admittedly, I don't even know what half the saber stats even mean. LOL...

But I think for the most part the Gold Glove is a joke the way it is awarded today. If the award was intended for best player at each position it would carry more meaning. But as a defensive award, too many winners are winning because of strictly offense.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 11:42 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



williamjpellas wrote: I really hate it when fans say that a given player "is the best in major league history" when their entire body of work hasn't been registered yet.  Molina, to be sure, is an excellent defender and has become a very good hitter and if he can keep it up for another 3 or 4 seasons at his current rate, he might even get into Cooperstown.  But the best defensive catcher in history?  Ever heard of Johnny Bench? Then there was that Carter guy up in Montreal.  How 'bout Pudge Rodriguez?  Juicer or not he was phenomenal.  I'd also take Ron Karkovice in terms of glovework and throwing our runners, though he was a poor hitter.  Tony Pena could really play the position, too.  And so on. 


The only really egregious thing, to my eyes, about this year's Gold Glove is Gonzales getting it over Marte.  Marte, right now, is probably the best defensive left fielder in the National League if not in all of baseball.  Which is one big reason why I give him more of a pass for his undisciplined hitting and other occasional lapses than I do Pedro Alvarez, though Alvarez' glove is significantly improved and obviously there's no arguing with his power. 


Also, I get really, REALLY tired of know-it-all sabreheads who predictably cry foul every single year over the Gold Glove when that award is determined by managers and coaches who see these players every single day from Spring Training to the World Series.  Is politics and sentiment sometimes involved in their voting?  Sure, obviously.  But the beauty of the Gold Glove is that it is an award bestowed by one's peers in one's own industry, the people who compete with and against these players.  I'm thinking that such people know a thing or three about who can pick it and who can't.


1.  Didn't say he was the best, said he is arguably the best, because he is.  Molina is historically good defensively.  Is he the best?  I'm not sure, but he is undoubtedly one of the best.

2.  Marte is the best LF in baseball, this isn't really debatable to me.  I agree with you 100% here.

3.  Why use saber-head as a negative connotation?  I guess Neal Huntington is a know it all "saber-head" as well, and Billy Beane, and Sandy Alderson, and Paul DePodesta, and Theo Epstein, and Brian Sabean, etc..

And the wrongness in your argument is because these players only play against the player "x" number of times a year.  It is suppose to be an award based on the whole year.  As you can see, 9 of the 16 were still correct, and a couple more were close enough that I think the players that won were deserving, if not the most deserving.  It is only the few a year where a guy wins when he isn't even very good at defense (Adam Jones), and excellent defenders lose out.  This, to me, in inexcusable.  Jones was one of the worst Centerfielders in all of baseball this year and won the Gold Glove because he can hit and makes highlight plays once and awhile.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 11:45 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



panthers2533 wrote: William......I am far from a sabrehead... admittedly, I don't even know what half the saber stats even mean. LOL...

But I think for the most part the Gold Glove is a joke the way it is awarded today. If the award was intended for best player at each position it would carry more meaning. But as a defensive award, too many winners are winning because of strictly offense.



Probably true, panthers, but I also don't want to see the Gold Glove turned over to the "metrics" folks either.  No big deal here, in my mind, though, since if Marte can continue to play well in LF and cut down on the errors (especially at inopportune times), he'll win his share of GGs before he is done.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 10/30/2013 3:38 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


Who are the "metrics" folks?  What does that even mean?  You mean the people that use the eye test as well as every available statistic at their disposal?

The hilarity in that statement is top notch.  That is like saying that you don't want decisions made on the country's economy to be turned over to economists.  Oh wait, that is how our country functions right now anyways lol.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 5:35 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



williamjpellas wrote: I really hate it when fans say that a given player "is the best in major league history" when their entire body of work hasn't been registered yet.  Molina, to be sure, is an excellent defender and has become a very good hitter and if he can keep it up for another 3 or 4 seasons at his current rate, he might even get into Cooperstown.  But the best defensive catcher in history?  Ever heard of Johnny Bench? Then there was that Carter guy up in Montreal.  How 'bout Pudge Rodriguez?  Juicer or not he was phenomenal.  I'd also take Ron Karkovice in terms of glovework and throwing our runners, though he was a poor hitter.  Tony Pena could really play the position, too.  And so on. 


The only really egregious thing, to my eyes, about this year's Gold Glove is Gonzales getting it over Marte.  Marte, right now, is probably the best defensive left fielder in the National League if not in all of baseball.  Which is one big reason why I give him more of a pass for his undisciplined hitting and other occasional lapses than I do Pedro Alvarez, though Alvarez' glove is significantly improved and obviously there's no arguing with his power. 


Also, I get really, REALLY tired of know-it-all sabreheads who predictably cry foul every single year over the Gold Glove when that award is determined by managers and coaches who see these players every single day from Spring Training to the World Series.  Is politics and sentiment sometimes involved in their voting?  Sure, obviously.  But the beauty of the Gold Glove is that it is an award bestowed by one's peers in one's own industry, the people who compete with and against these players.  I'm thinking that such people know a thing or three about who can pick it and who can't.
I think if you look at these stats you may see why Gonzo won the Award;

Gonzales led all NL players with 11 assists, tied with Bryce Harper. He only had 3 errors to Harpers 5. Gonzo also had a higher range factor than Harper. If CarGo didnt win then I think Harper would have been the next choice.

As for Marte, he led all NL LF in errors, he only had 5 assists and had a lower Range Factor than almost every other player, minus Jason Kubel that had as many or more assists then Marte. And Marte had the same amount of Total Chances as Gonzales did.

The stats show that Gonzo was the better defensive LF this year. Now is he better? That is debatable, but the stats show that CarGo was the best choice as the LF.
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Posted: 10/30/2013 5:50 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



vinnybravo wrote:
williamjpellas wrote: I really hate it when fans say that a given player "is the best in major league history" when their entire body of work hasn't been registered yet.  Molina, to be sure, is an excellent defender and has become a very good hitter and if he can keep it up for another 3 or 4 seasons at his current rate, he might even get into Cooperstown.  But the best defensive catcher in history?  Ever heard of Johnny Bench? Then there was that Carter guy up in Montreal.  How 'bout Pudge Rodriguez?  Juicer or not he was phenomenal.  I'd also take Ron Karkovice in terms of glovework and throwing our runners, though he was a poor hitter.  Tony Pena could really play the position, too.  And so on. 


The only really egregious thing, to my eyes, about this year's Gold Glove is Gonzales getting it over Marte.  Marte, right now, is probably the best defensive left fielder in the National League if not in all of baseball.  Which is one big reason why I give him more of a pass for his undisciplined hitting and other occasional lapses than I do Pedro Alvarez, though Alvarez' glove is significantly improved and obviously there's no arguing with his power. 


Also, I get really, REALLY tired of know-it-all sabreheads who predictably cry foul every single year over the Gold Glove when that award is determined by managers and coaches who see these players every single day from Spring Training to the World Series.  Is politics and sentiment sometimes involved in their voting?  Sure, obviously.  But the beauty of the Gold Glove is that it is an award bestowed by one's peers in one's own industry, the people who compete with and against these players.  I'm thinking that such people know a thing or three about who can pick it and who can't.
I think if you look at these stats you may see why Gonzo won the Award;

Gonzales led all NL players with 11 assists, tied with Bryce Harper. He only had 3 errors to Harpers 5. Gonzo also had a higher range factor than Harper. If CarGo didnt win then I think Harper would have been the next choice.

As for Marte, he led all NL LF in errors, he only had 5 assists and had a lower Range Factor than almost every other player, minus Jason Kubel that had as many or more assists then Marte. And Marte had the same amount of Total Chances as Gonzales did.

The stats show that Gonzo was the better defensive LF this year. Now is he better? That is debatable, but the stats show that CarGo was the best choice as the LF.

Marte's defensive runs saved and UZR were the best in Major League Baseball, and by a lot.  He didn't have as many assists and had more errors because he gets to more balls than anyone else in the league.  Go check the stats again, actually I'll link Fangraphs for you, Marte was the best LF in baseball this year defensively.  In fact, Gonzales and Harper didn't even qualify in LF, they didn't play there enough.



http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...=&players=0
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Posted: 10/30/2013 6:54 PM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:
williamjpellas wrote: I really hate it when fans say that a given player "is the best in major league history" when their entire body of work hasn't been registered yet.  Molina, to be sure, is an excellent defender and has become a very good hitter and if he can keep it up for another 3 or 4 seasons at his current rate, he might even get into Cooperstown.  But the best defensive catcher in history?  Ever heard of Johnny Bench? Then there was that Carter guy up in Montreal.  How 'bout Pudge Rodriguez?  Juicer or not he was phenomenal.  I'd also take Ron Karkovice in terms of glovework and throwing our runners, though he was a poor hitter.  Tony Pena could really play the position, too.  And so on. 


The only really egregious thing, to my eyes, about this year's Gold Glove is Gonzales getting it over Marte.  Marte, right now, is probably the best defensive left fielder in the National League if not in all of baseball.  Which is one big reason why I give him more of a pass for his undisciplined hitting and other occasional lapses than I do Pedro Alvarez, though Alvarez' glove is significantly improved and obviously there's no arguing with his power. 


Also, I get really, REALLY tired of know-it-all sabreheads who predictably cry foul every single year over the Gold Glove when that award is determined by managers and coaches who see these players every single day from Spring Training to the World Series.  Is politics and sentiment sometimes involved in their voting?  Sure, obviously.  But the beauty of the Gold Glove is that it is an award bestowed by one's peers in one's own industry, the people who compete with and against these players.  I'm thinking that such people know a thing or three about who can pick it and who can't.
I think if you look at these stats you may see why Gonzo won the Award;

Gonzales led all NL players with 11 assists, tied with Bryce Harper. He only had 3 errors to Harpers 5. Gonzo also had a higher range factor than Harper. If CarGo didnt win then I think Harper would have been the next choice.

As for Marte, he led all NL LF in errors, he only had 5 assists and had a lower Range Factor than almost every other player, minus Jason Kubel that had as many or more assists then Marte. And Marte had the same amount of Total Chances as Gonzales did.

The stats show that Gonzo was the better defensive LF this year. Now is he better? That is debatable, but the stats show that CarGo was the best choice as the LF.

Marte's defensive runs saved and UZR were the best in Major League Baseball, and by a lot.  He didn't have as many assists and had more errors because he gets to more balls than anyone else in the league.  Go check the stats again, actually I'll link Fangraphs for you, Marte was the best LF in baseball this year defensively.  In fact, Gonzales and Harper didn't even qualify in LF, they didn't play there enough.



http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...=&players=0
Marte and Cargo had the same amount of Total chances even though Cargo played less games. I was using the stats strait off of MLB.com. I am not saying Marte or Cargo should have won the award. I am simply saying if you look at stats like assists, errors and such you can see why people would vote for Cargo over Marte. Not saying its right or wrong, just saying I can see why people voted for him.
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Posted: 10/31/2013 6:56 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 


Who are the "metrics" folks? 

You, for one.

Excellent statistical analysis, vinny.  It is good to see an objective presentation of the relevant numbers, rather than an attempt to manipulate them to achieve a pre-determined result.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:08 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



panthers2533 wrote: William......I am far from a sabrehead... admittedly, I don't even know what half the saber stats even mean. LOL...

But I think for the most part the Gold Glove is a joke the way it is awarded today. If the award was intended for best player at each position it would carry more meaning. But as a defensive award, too many winners are winning because of strictly offense.

And, I get the outcry over, for example, Rafael Palmeiro's "gold glove" a few years back.  Obviously things needed to be tightened up, to put it mildly.  But the same hackneyed arguments pop up from the same people every year and it's beyond tiresome.  Yes, some players have won awards when they probably weren't the most deserving of the award.  This is true of awards across the spectrum: MVP, Cy Young, Gold Glove, etc.  I just get weary of the same articles and the same talking points thrown up by the same people Every. Single. Year. When. The. Awards. Are. Announced.  Don't the people who decide the awards ever get them right, or even just mostly right?  Good grief!!! rolleyes
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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:19 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



williamjpellas wrote:
panthers2533 wrote: William......I am far from a sabrehead... admittedly, I don't even know what half the saber stats even mean. LOL...

But I think for the most part the Gold Glove is a joke the way it is awarded today. If the award was intended for best player at each position it would carry more meaning. But as a defensive award, too many winners are winning because of strictly offense.

And, I get the outcry over, for example, Rafael Palmeiro's "gold glove" a few years back.  Obviously things needed to be tightened up, to put it mildly.  But the same hackneyed arguments pop up from the same people every year and it's beyond tiresome.  Yes, some players have won awards when they probably weren't the most deserving of the award.  This is true of awards across the spectrum: MVP, Cy Young, Gold Glove, etc.  I just get weary of the same articles and the same talking points thrown up by the same people Every. Single. Year. When. The. Awards. Are. Announced.  Don't the people who decide the awards ever get them right, or even just mostly right?  Good grief!!! rolleyes

They got 11 or 12 of the 16 Gold gloves right this year, so yes, they get them right all the time.  They just don't get all of them right, and I see no reason why the voters shouldn't get every award right, or at least close.

I have no problem with guys like Brandon Phillips or J.J. Hardy winning the Gold Glove because they are both good defenders, even if they weren't the best at their position.  My major problem is guys like Adam Jones winning the award when he is a brutal outfielder, or Carlos Gonzales winning the award when he played 200 less innings than the most deserving candidate, Starling Marte.  Any way you swing the relevant stats, Marte deserved to win.  Even if you use the eye test it would tell you Marte was better.  So in those two cases I have a huge problem, but most of the other ones at least the guy winning wasn't injured a lot or a bad fielder, they just weren't the best choice.

And Mike Trout should win MVP this year over Miguel Cabrera, he had one of the greatest individual seasons in Major League History, but that is another argument altogether lol.
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Posted: 10/31/2013 10:20 AM

Re: Cutch, Marte, and Martin are Gold Glove finalists 



cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:
williamjpellas wrote: I really hate it when fans say that a given player "is the best in major league history" when their entire body of work hasn't been registered yet.  Molina, to be sure, is an excellent defender and has become a very good hitter and if he can keep it up for another 3 or 4 seasons at his current rate, he might even get into Cooperstown.  But the best defensive catcher in history?  Ever heard of Johnny Bench? Then there was that Carter guy up in Montreal.  How 'bout Pudge Rodriguez?  Juicer or not he was phenomenal.  I'd also take Ron Karkovice in terms of glovework and throwing our runners, though he was a poor hitter.  Tony Pena could really play the position, too.  And so on. 


The only really egregious thing, to my eyes, about this year's Gold Glove is Gonzales getting it over Marte.  Marte, right now, is probably the best defensive left fielder in the National League if not in all of baseball.  Which is one big reason why I give him more of a pass for his undisciplined hitting and other occasional lapses than I do Pedro Alvarez, though Alvarez' glove is significantly improved and obviously there's no arguing with his power. 


Also, I get really, REALLY tired of know-it-all sabreheads who predictably cry foul every single year over the Gold Glove when that award is determined by managers and coaches who see these players every single day from Spring Training to the World Series.  Is politics and sentiment sometimes involved in their voting?  Sure, obviously.  But the beauty of the Gold Glove is that it is an award bestowed by one's peers in one's own industry, the people who compete with and against these players.  I'm thinking that such people know a thing or three about who can pick it and who can't.
I think if you look at these stats you may see why Gonzo won the Award;

Gonzales led all NL players with 11 assists, tied with Bryce Harper. He only had 3 errors to Harpers 5. Gonzo also had a higher range factor than Harper. If CarGo didnt win then I think Harper would have been the next choice.

As for Marte, he led all NL LF in errors, he only had 5 assists and had a lower Range Factor than almost every other player, minus Jason Kubel that had as many or more assists then Marte. And Marte had the same amount of Total Chances as Gonzales did.

The stats show that Gonzo was the better defensive LF this year. Now is he better? That is debatable, but the stats show that CarGo was the best choice as the LF.

Marte's defensive runs saved and UZR were the best in Major League Baseball, and by a lot.  He didn't have as many assists and had more errors because he gets to more balls than anyone else in the league.  Go check the stats again, actually I'll link Fangraphs for you, Marte was the best LF in baseball this year defensively.  In fact, Gonzales and Harper didn't even qualify in LF, they didn't play there enough.



http://www.fangraphs.com/leade...=&players=0
I wonder if the drop (and the associated error) cost Marte the Gold Glove.
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