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Cole

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Posted: 09/03/2013 5:51 PM

Cole 


He has got to be tipping his pitches. Nobody throws that hard with that much movement and gets hit like this. It's not a Lincoln type straight fastball and his slider is nasty. The Brewers are turning on 97 mph inside corner 2 seamers and wacking down and away sliders into RF. Something has to be up.
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Posted: 09/03/2013 6:33 PM

Re: Cole 


Word gets around, too.  If he is, there's a book on it.

JFC 2013 Bluegrass Jam
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Posted: 09/03/2013 7:03 PM

Re: Cole 


He's looked really good after the first. Throwing 98 heat in the 6th and mowing people down. Movement is terrific tonight.
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Posted: 09/03/2013 7:39 PM

Re: Cole 



abitoutside wrote: He has got to be tipping his pitches. Nobody throws that hard with that much movement and gets hit like this. It's not a Lincoln type straight fastball and his slider is nasty. The Brewers are turning on 97 mph inside corner 2 seamers and wacking down and away sliders into RF. Something has to be up.
I was thinking something similar.  For how hard he throws he doesn't miss many bats - then he struck out two in one inning a little later on.
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Posted: 09/03/2013 7:47 PM

Re: Cole 



Sangue wrote:
abitoutside wrote: He has got to be tipping his pitches. Nobody throws that hard with that much movement and gets hit like this. It's not a Lincoln type straight fastball and his slider is nasty. The Brewers are turning on 97 mph inside corner 2 seamers and wacking down and away sliders into RF. Something has to be up.
I was thinking something similar.  For how hard he throws he doesn't miss many bats - then he struck out two in one inning a little later on.
On MLBRadio, I heard some hosts saying that he's throwing too many fastballs and they're too flat.  He's not mixing in enough off speed pitches.  They felt that with experience, he'll use more of his pitches with experience.
#fringeprospect
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Posted: 09/03/2013 10:02 PM

RE: Cole 


I cant imagine that as he gets more comfortable and more experience he wont start using other pitches more often.


 

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  • bucco66
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Posted: 09/04/2013 12:50 AM

Re: Cole 


Let's not forget, with all this stuff he's doing "wrong", he has managed to throw 10 quality starts in 15 outings and 4 of the other 5 he went 5 innings or more and gave up 3 runs or less.

He's a rookie.

He's doing fine.

His numbers actually compare favorably to Roger Clemen's in his rookie year (lower era, fewer hits allowed, lower whip).
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Posted: 09/04/2013 4:46 AM

Re: Cole 


After the 1st inning he was really good. Dominant in some innings.

He is really "hittable" overall for the stuff he has so tipping his pitches could be something that is happening. But even with him being hittable, he has been fine overall for his rookie year.

Another thing I sort of think, no idea if I am right or not, is the pitch to contact has been beaten into his head so much that it is working against him right now. In other words, he is getting too much of the plate in order to try and be more efficient with his pitch count.
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Posted: 09/04/2013 7:09 AM

Re: Cole 


Don't forget that Cole has never been a big winner. College and minor league hitters also seemed to make good contact against him. His rep has been built on potential and it's hard to argue against that considering his strong arm and good control. But, as said, he's inexperienced and young, with a lot of room for growth.
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Posted: 09/04/2013 7:10 AM

Re: Cole 


I think way too many people thought Cole was the 2nd coming of Walter Johnson.  They guy has done very good for a rookie first round pick.  At this point, I'm very encouraged he will be a top of the rotation anchor for us over the next few years.  If they ever have Taillon, Kingham, Glasnow, and Cole in the rotation at the same time, it could be pretty sick homegrown unit.

Cole is just starting to learn how to pitch instead of relying on the heat.  That's why I think a game last night was encouraging.  He settled down after the first and was very effective.  By the way, that was a pretty good hitting lineup the Brewers threw out there.
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Posted: 09/04/2013 7:42 AM

Re: Cole 


Cole has been pretty damn good if you ask me. He is 22 years old. Location is key to pitching. He also needs a better change. Throw slider more when ahead in counts. He is learning to pitch in the majors. These guys are good. The best he has faced EVER. They can hit fastballs. If you are going to hit a down and away slider RF is the place. He keeps the Buccos in the ballgame. He is learning. He is getting better every start.  He is the Fourth man in the rotation. Name one fourth man better ? He will EVENTUALLY be an ace. Have patience here folks. The Buccos are very lucky to have him IMHO.
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Posted: 09/04/2013 7:49 AM

Re: Cole 


Call me names if you wish to, yinz guys, but I'm telling you, there's something off when a guy throws as hard as Cole does but misses so few bats.  Straightball?  Tipping his pitches?  Both?  To be sure, he hasn't been bad or a bust.  I'm not saying that.  I'm saying, his results do not match his stuff, and that that has been the consistent pattern throughout his amateur and much of his professional career. 


There have been plenty of other pitchers who match that description, so Cole is by no means alone in the boat.  But I don't think he is going to be an elite major league starting pitcher.  On the other hand, if he stays healthy and becomes a 200 inning per year guy who wins 15 games with a mid-3 ERA, great, we'll take that.  That would be a better than average major league starting pitcher.  We'll gladly take that!  But Taillon, I think, is your ace in the making, not Cole.
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Posted: 09/04/2013 9:43 PM

Re: Cole 


Cole has been outstanding for a 22 year old rookie (3.38 xFIP), but has been getting even better as the season has went on (3.07 xFIP in the second half).  His strikeout rate has now been at or above 20% in the last two months, not too bad.  And he has a higher strikeout rate than Verlander did as a rookie, and is a year younger. 

Guys like Jose Fernandez and Matt Harvey are the exception, not the rule.  Cole is well on his way to being an ace.  As he uses his slider and 4-seam fastball more often and more appropriately, he will strikeout even more batters.  Eventually he will be an elite strikeout guy and an ace, I see no reason he won't be.  He has been our second best pitcher in the second half, and the numbers back that up (yes, even better than Liriano and Morton).  Those concerned had unrealistic expectations, which happens with top level prospects, but he is exceeding my expectations since the all-star break.  He already looks like a workhorse.

http://www.piratesprospects.co...-potential.html
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Posted: 09/05/2013 4:53 AM

Re: Cole 


Yeah I agree.
cferrel3 wrote: Cole has been outstanding for a 22 year old rookie (3.38 xFIP), but has been getting even better as the season has went on (3.07 xFIP in the second half).  His strikeout rate has now been at or above 20% in the last two months, not too bad.  And he has a higher strikeout rate than Verlander did as a rookie, and is a year younger. 

Guys like Jose Fernandez and Matt Harvey are the exception, not the rule.  Cole is well on his way to being an ace.  As he uses his slider and 4-seam fastball more often and more appropriately, he will strikeout even more batters.  Eventually he will be an elite strikeout guy and an ace, I see no reason he won't be.  He has been our second best pitcher in the second half, and the numbers back that up (yes, even better than Liriano and Morton).  Those concerned had unrealistic expectations, which happens with top level prospects, but he is exceeding my expectations since the all-star break.  He already looks like a workhorse.

http://www.piratesprospects.co...-potential.html
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Posted: 09/05/2013 6:33 AM

Re: Cole 



buccobasher wrote: Cole has been pretty damn good if you ask me. He is 22 years old. Location is key to pitching. He also needs a better change. Throw slider more when ahead in counts. He is learning to pitch in the majors. These guys are good. The best he has faced EVER. They can hit fastballs. If you are going to hit a down and away slider RF is the place. He keeps the Buccos in the ballgame. He is learning. He is getting better every start.  He is the Fourth man in the rotation. Name one fourth man better ? He will EVENTUALLY be an ace. Have patience here folks. The Buccos are very lucky to have him IMHO.



I agree.  And while I'm sure to be in the minority on this, I would prefer that he could have done this learning in AAA.  I don't think Huntington wanted to bring him up, and wouldn't have unless the situation demanded it.  On the other hand, he's learning different things by pitching in a pennant race.

I don't see him as a potential future ace, at least not "Cy Young" type quality.  I see him more as a good #2 starter.  But who knows, I don't have a crystal ball.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 09/05/2013 6:43 AM

Re: Cole 



gr1111 wrote:
buccobasher wrote: Cole has been pretty damn good if you ask me. He is 22 years old. Location is key to pitching. He also needs a better change. Throw slider more when ahead in counts. He is learning to pitch in the majors. These guys are good. The best he has faced EVER. They can hit fastballs. If you are going to hit a down and away slider RF is the place. He keeps the Buccos in the ballgame. He is learning. He is getting better every start.  He is the Fourth man in the rotation. Name one fourth man better ? He will EVENTUALLY be an ace. Have patience here folks. The Buccos are very lucky to have him IMHO.



I agree.  And while I'm sure to be in the minority on this, I would prefer that he could have done this learning in AAA.  I don't think Huntington wanted to bring him up, and wouldn't have unless the situation demanded it.  On the other hand, he's learning different things by pitching in a pennant race.

I don't see him as a potential future ace, at least not "Cy Young" type quality.  I see him more as a good #2 starter.  But who knows, I don't have a crystal ball.
While I agree with your overall post with some minor differences, the part I bolded and underlined I am not sure I agree with.

Sure he is obviously still learning and not a finished product, but in literally every start but maybe 1 or 2, he has given the team a good chance to win. What is wrong with that from a number 4 or 5 which is what he is this year?

I guess I am not totally following that. Are you saying him being up a little early is hurting his growth? To me, he clearly belongs up here as one of the Top 5 in the rotation even with his learning and growing pains so to speak.
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Posted: 09/05/2013 7:01 AM

Re: Cole 



panthers2533 wrote:
gr1111 wrote:
buccobasher wrote: Cole has been pretty damn good if you ask me. He is 22 years old. Location is key to pitching. He also needs a better change. Throw slider more when ahead in counts. He is learning to pitch in the majors. These guys are good. The best he has faced EVER. They can hit fastballs. If you are going to hit a down and away slider RF is the place. He keeps the Buccos in the ballgame. He is learning. He is getting better every start.  He is the Fourth man in the rotation. Name one fourth man better ? He will EVENTUALLY be an ace. Have patience here folks. The Buccos are very lucky to have him IMHO.



I agree.  And while I'm sure to be in the minority on this, I would prefer that he could have done this learning in AAA.  I don't think Huntington wanted to bring him up, and wouldn't have unless the situation demanded it.  On the other hand, he's learning different things by pitching in a pennant race.

I don't see him as a potential future ace, at least not "Cy Young" type quality.  I see him more as a good #2 starter.  But who knows, I don't have a crystal ball.
While I agree with your overall post with some minor differences, the part I bolded and underlined I am not sure I agree with.

Sure he is obviously still learning and not a finished product, but in literally every start but maybe 1 or 2, he has given the team a good chance to win. What is wrong with that from a number 4 or 5 which is what he is this year?

I guess I am not totally following that. Are you saying him being up a little early is hurting his growth? To me, he clearly belongs up here as one of the Top 5 in the rotation even with his learning and growing pains so to speak.



I'm saying he isn't a finished product yet.  His change needs work and his slider is erratic at times.  And he still needs to learn how to mix his pitches better to keep hitters confused and off-stride.  For now, hitters can mostly still wait on the fastball.

I just think this learning would be better achieved in AAA, without major league hitters punishing his mistakes.  It is why the minors are there, to perfect your craft.

That was all.  I understand why he is here, and I certainly didn't say anything to suggest that he hasn't done a good job.  He's obviously pitched well overall and kept us in ball games.  No complaints from me.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 09/05/2013 7:09 AM

Re: Cole 



gr1111 wrote:


I'm saying he isn't a finished product yet.  His change needs work and his slider is erratic at times.  And he still needs to learn how to mix his pitches better to keep hitters confused and off-stride.  For now, hitters can mostly still wait on the fastball.

I just think this learning would be better achieved in AAA, without major league hitters punishing his mistakes.  It is why the minors are there, to perfect your craft.

That was all.  I understand why he is here, and I certainly didn't say anything to suggest that he hasn't done a good job.  He's obviously pitched well overall and kept us in ball games.  No complaints from me.

Seems like the horse is out of the barn as Cole may be Super Two (guess calculation will be close).  I think Cole's only time in the minors in the future will be rehab starts.  While his Super Two status will be quite costly, at least the Pirates won't have the reputation of screwing most players our of Super Two status - now that Walker and possibly Cole are Super Two's.  Does McKenry qualify as Super Two also?

Last edited 09/05/2013 7:11 AM by Sangue

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Posted: 09/05/2013 9:19 AM

Re: Cole 



gr1111 wrote:
panthers2533 wrote:
gr1111 wrote:
buccobasher wrote: Cole has been pretty damn good if you ask me. He is 22 years old. Location is key to pitching. He also needs a better change. Throw slider more when ahead in counts. He is learning to pitch in the majors. These guys are good. The best he has faced EVER. They can hit fastballs. If you are going to hit a down and away slider RF is the place. He keeps the Buccos in the ballgame. He is learning. He is getting better every start.  He is the Fourth man in the rotation. Name one fourth man better ? He will EVENTUALLY be an ace. Have patience here folks. The Buccos are very lucky to have him IMHO.



I agree.  And while I'm sure to be in the minority on this, I would prefer that he could have done this learning in AAA.  I don't think Huntington wanted to bring him up, and wouldn't have unless the situation demanded it.  On the other hand, he's learning different things by pitching in a pennant race.

I don't see him as a potential future ace, at least not "Cy Young" type quality.  I see him more as a good #2 starter.  But who knows, I don't have a crystal ball.
While I agree with your overall post with some minor differences, the part I bolded and underlined I am not sure I agree with.

Sure he is obviously still learning and not a finished product, but in literally every start but maybe 1 or 2, he has given the team a good chance to win. What is wrong with that from a number 4 or 5 which is what he is this year?

I guess I am not totally following that. Are you saying him being up a little early is hurting his growth? To me, he clearly belongs up here as one of the Top 5 in the rotation even with his learning and growing pains so to speak.



I'm saying he isn't a finished product yet.  His change needs work and his slider is erratic at times.  And he still needs to learn how to mix his pitches better to keep hitters confused and off-stride.  For now, hitters can mostly still wait on the fastball.

I just think this learning would be better achieved in AAA, without major league hitters punishing his mistakes.  It is why the minors are there, to perfect your craft.

That was all.  I understand why he is here, and I certainly didn't say anything to suggest that he hasn't done a good job.  He's obviously pitched well overall and kept us in ball games.  No complaints from me.

Punishing?  I don't follow.  He has been our second best pitcher since the All-Star break, not a whole lot of punishing going on.  He should have been in the majors IMO, and should still be from here on out.  He has been outstanding in my mind (I didn't have unrealistic expectations), and on his way to being a dominant force as a starter.
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Posted: 09/05/2013 9:26 AM

Re: Cole 



cferrel3 wrote:
gr1111 wrote:
panthers2533 wrote:
gr1111 wrote:
buccobasher wrote: Cole has been pretty damn good if you ask me. He is 22 years old. Location is key to pitching. He also needs a better change. Throw slider more when ahead in counts. He is learning to pitch in the majors. These guys are good. The best he has faced EVER. They can hit fastballs. If you are going to hit a down and away slider RF is the place. He keeps the Buccos in the ballgame. He is learning. He is getting better every start.  He is the Fourth man in the rotation. Name one fourth man better ? He will EVENTUALLY be an ace. Have patience here folks. The Buccos are very lucky to have him IMHO.



I agree.  And while I'm sure to be in the minority on this, I would prefer that he could have done this learning in AAA.  I don't think Huntington wanted to bring him up, and wouldn't have unless the situation demanded it.  On the other hand, he's learning different things by pitching in a pennant race.

I don't see him as a potential future ace, at least not "Cy Young" type quality.  I see him more as a good #2 starter.  But who knows, I don't have a crystal ball.
While I agree with your overall post with some minor differences, the part I bolded and underlined I am not sure I agree with.

Sure he is obviously still learning and not a finished product, but in literally every start but maybe 1 or 2, he has given the team a good chance to win. What is wrong with that from a number 4 or 5 which is what he is this year?

I guess I am not totally following that. Are you saying him being up a little early is hurting his growth? To me, he clearly belongs up here as one of the Top 5 in the rotation even with his learning and growing pains so to speak.



I'm saying he isn't a finished product yet.  His change needs work and his slider is erratic at times.  And he still needs to learn how to mix his pitches better to keep hitters confused and off-stride.  For now, hitters can mostly still wait on the fastball.

I just think this learning would be better achieved in AAA, without major league hitters punishing his mistakes.  It is why the minors are there, to perfect your craft.

That was all.  I understand why he is here, and I certainly didn't say anything to suggest that he hasn't done a good job.  He's obviously pitched well overall and kept us in ball games.  No complaints from me.

Punishing?  I don't follow.  He has been our second best pitcher since the All-Star break, not a whole lot of punishing going on.  He should have been in the majors IMO, and should still be from here on out.  He has been outstanding in my mind (I didn't have unrealistic expectations), and on his way to being a dominant force as a starter.

I would like for him to have spent more time in the minors honing his craft.  I think he would have been better for it in the long run.  That's my pov after watching him pitch so far.

That isn't a cut or a slight.  He's doing fine and he's helped the team. 

Is he on his way to becoming an ace?  I have no idea.  Will he get better or will the league adjust to what he is doing, etc. etc. etc.  Time will tell.  I hope so.

___________

 

  

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