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337-472 (.416)

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Posted: 02/20/2013 3:16 PM

337-472 (.416) 


The BMTIS record since taking over in 2007.

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Posted: 02/20/2013 3:22 PM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


Not too bad considering there was little talent on the big league roster and an awful minor league system.  It could have been a lot worse.  The fact that we "competed" for over half a season in year 4 was astonishing in my eyes.  And now with a very good minor league system in place and a solid young core in place, I think the future is very bright.
Sangue wrote: The BMTIS record since taking over in 2007.

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Posted: 02/20/2013 7:00 PM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


It is great to be optimistic about the future, but if the BMTIS doesn't start winning at the MLB level very soon, they will have to go.

___________

 

  

Last edited 02/21/2013 5:11 AM by gr1111

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Posted: 02/21/2013 5:14 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


___________

 

  

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Posted: 02/21/2013 5:57 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 



gr1111 wrote: It is great to be optimistic about the future, but if the BMTIS doesn't start winning at the MLB level very soon, they will have to go.
Coonelly should be gone.  Enough time has passed where it wouldn't look like they were firing him for the DUI.

Its nice to say Nutting should be gone - but the Pirates are privately owned.  Unfortunately, his is the only vote that counts.

I'm ok keeping Huntington for awhile to see what he could do without Coonelly.
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Posted: 02/21/2013 6:16 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


From the article gr1111 linked:

To some degree, we have front-loaded this year,” Nutting said. “We need to make sure that coming out of spring training we have the very best team we can put on the field. We are not in a position where we've held back and kept a big reserve (of cash). That would be irresponsible. We've got to take a run. We've got to push the chips in early this season.”

Good to see management is "all in" disbelief  The part in red almost makes me think they would leave Cole in the rotation if he plays well out of spring training.  Of course that's not gonna happen, even if he is one of our top 2 or 3 pitchers, regardless of age/experience.

It's almost as if I've heard this BS before....
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 02/21/2013 6:23 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


Couple baffling quotes in that article, but this one takes the cake. If $74 million is front loading the season then they have no hope. He is running this team like a publicly owned news paper and not a privately owned professional sports team. Constant positive cash flow is not going to cut it.

---------------------------------------------
--- GhostOfPBG wrote:

From the article gr1111 linked:

To some degree, we have front-loaded this year,” Nutting said. “We need to make sure that coming out of spring training we have the very best team we can put on the field. We are not in a position where we've held back and kept a big reserve (of cash). That would be irresponsible. We've got to take a run. We've got to push the chips in early this season.”

Good to see management is "all in" disbelief  The part in red almost makes me think they would leave Cole in the rotation if he plays well out of spring training.  Of course that's not gonna happen, even if he is one of our top 2 or 3 pitchers, regardless of age/experience.

It's almost as if I've heard this BS before....


---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 02/21/2013 7:38 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 



GhostOfPBG wrote: From the article gr1111 linked:

Good to see management is "all in" disbelief  The part in red almost makes me think they would leave Cole in the rotation if he plays well out of spring training.  Of course that's not gonna happen, even if he is one of our top 2 or 3 pitchers, regardless of age/experience.

I think Nutting was the one who promoted Alvarez and Tabata too early.  He may do it with Cole and Taillon as well.  Huntington can show him all the numbers, but in the end I think Nutting makes that call.  I think Nutting has a little Jerry Jones in him.
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Posted: 02/21/2013 7:52 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 



GhostOfPBG wrote: From the article gr1111 linked:

To some degree, we have front-loaded this year,” Nutting said. “We need to make sure that coming out of spring training we have the very best team we can put on the field. We are not in a position where we've held back and kept a big reserve (of cash). That would be irresponsible. We've got to take a run. We've got to push the chips in early this season.”

Good to see management is "all in" disbelief  The part in red almost makes me think they would leave Cole in the rotation if he plays well out of spring training.  Of course that's not gonna happen, even if he is one of our top 2 or 3 pitchers, regardless of age/experience.

It's almost as if I've heard this BS before....


You have heard it before.  Nutting gives the same basic press conference every year and says esspentially the same thing every time.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 02/21/2013 8:07 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


Tell you what, reading that full interview I came away very impressed.  I'm not talking about the cliché lines that he says every year, I'm referring to the comments about building for the future while at the same time trying to win now.  And not salvaging the future just to have one winning season, he wants sustained success over the long haul.  He also, made a comment about Hurdle's job not being safe if the team takes a step back just because he got an extension.  He seems to "get it" to how a team in a market like Pittsburgh needs to operate, some of the interview reinforced my belief that I think the organization is definitely headed in the right direction, has been for the last 5 years, and will continue to be run that way in the future.
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Posted: 02/21/2013 8:11 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


Pirates' owner Bob Nutting

Bucs owner Nutting: team needs to "make a run

BRADENTON, Fla. (AP) Pittsburgh Pirates owner Bob Nutting looked over the $10 million renovation of McKechnie Field - the team's spring training home - and took a moment to marvel at how far the franchise has come since he took over five years ago. Full Story | Discuss

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Posted: 02/21/2013 8:46 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 



pipersfan wrote:
Pirates' owner Bob Nutting

Bucs owner Nutting: team needs to "make a run

BRADENTON, Fla. (AP) Pittsburgh Pirates owner Bob Nutting looked over the $10 million renovation of McKechnie Field - the team's spring training home - and took a moment to marvel at how far the franchise has come since he took over five years ago. Full Story | Discuss

Thank you, Andrew McCutchen.  Can you imagine where this team would be without him?
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Posted: 02/21/2013 11:44 AM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 


Thank you, Andrew McCutchen. Can you imagine where this team would be without him?


Ironic that the previous dunderhead GM's draft pick is now the cornerstone of the current edition of the Pirates.  In fact, another one of his draft picks, Neil Walker, is no worse than the third best starting position player.  In fact....


Never mind.  rolleyes
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Posted: 02/21/2013 12:00 PM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 



williamjpellas wrote: Thank you, Andrew McCutchen. Can you imagine where this team would be without him?


Ironic that the previous dunderhead GM's draft pick is now the cornerstone of the current edition of the Pirates.  In fact, another one of his draft picks, Neil Walker, is no worse than the third best starting position player.  In fact....


Never mind.  rolleyes

Andrew McCutchen was drafted in 2005.  So it took him 8 years to become the cornerstone of the franchise.  Neil Walker in 2004.  Perhaps now you will finally understand how long it takes a drafted player to become a cornerstone.

However we've been over this a million times so....

Never mind. rolleyes
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Posted: 02/21/2013 1:27 PM

Re: 337-472 (.416) 



katoy2j wrote:
williamjpellas wrote: Thank you, Andrew McCutchen. Can you imagine where this team would be without him?


Ironic that the previous dunderhead GM's draft pick is now the cornerstone of the current edition of the Pirates.  In fact, another one of his draft picks, Neil Walker, is no worse than the third best starting position player.  In fact....


Never mind.  rolleyes

Andrew McCutchen was drafted in 2005.  So it took him 8 years to become the cornerstone of the franchise.  Neil Walker in 2004.  Perhaps now you will finally understand how long it takes a drafted player to become a cornerstone.

However we've been over this a million times so....

Never mind. rolleyes


Cutch reached the majors in 2009, with an OPS that year of .836 (433 at bats) and a WAR of 2.2. 

So drafted in 2005 and to the majors in four years (with a substantial contribution).  As such, he progressed through the system fairly quickly.

William's and Sangue's point, I think, was more in response to Nutting's taking credit for how far the organization has come, without any acknowledgement that much of the current success is the result of actions of the prior management team.  It is also a reaction to those who want to give the current management tremendous credit for turning things around since when they arrived the team had "no talent".

___________

 

  

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Posted: 02/21/2013 2:08 PM

RE: 337-472 (.416) 


I strongly disagree.

Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker accomplish nothing. Without the changes that were made you would simply have both players playing out the course with nothing behind them. The same way that you had Brian Giles and then Jason Bay before them. When the Pirates had Jason Bay win rookie of the year they didn't have a top 10 and a top 20 prospect in the minors. They didn't have a bunch of other high quality prospects behind them either.


You can't have simply one player. This team had two half seasons of being a well above average team. They haven't been able to do it for an entire season. I really like Andrew McCutchen but the reality is this team did well last year because of their pitching. When the pitching went downhill last year so did the team.

Every single starting pitcher was acquired by Huntington with the exception of Kyle McPherson. The reason we had 79 wins last year was the pitching. This is the best pitching staff we have had since the playoff years.

McCutchen might be the star of this team but he isn't going to be the reason this team does well or poorly. If he has an average year where he gets 4.0 WAR or a great year where he gets 7.0 WAR will do very little to impact the standings. If he has an average year and the pitching does well then the team will do well. If he has a great year and the pitching does poorly then the team will do poorly.

Andrew McCutchen was on the 2010 Pirate team that lost more than 100 games.

It's about the pitching.

In 2007 here was the starting rotation

Matt Morris
Paul Maholm
Zach Duke
Tom Gorzelanny
Ian Snell

Only Maholm is still a starter. The others are simply relievers or out of baseball.

McCutchen was always a highly ranked prospect. However even with him in the organization we still had the worst farm system in baseball. Saying we had nothing is not a literal term. It's a figurative term. You always have something. The fact the major league roster was so poor and the minor league roster was so poor then figuratively we have had nothing. Obviously we still had something. We had Jason Bay in the majors and we had Andrew McCutchen in the minors. In terms of what other teams had either in the majors/minors in combination we had nothing. Now we have a lot more.

So Andrew McCutchen reached the majors in 2009 after being drafted in 2005 and put up 2.2 WAR. Pedro Alvarez was drafted in 2008 and in 2012 put up 2.6 WAR so it isn't as if we haven't gotten anything from Huntingtons drafts.

We've reached the point where we've almost cycled completely through all the players that were in the system before. The only ones that are left are the ones that the new regime thought enough to keep around. It isn't a very long list.

Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Jared Hughes, Tony Watson, Kyle McPherson and Starling Marte. I could be missing a guy or two. Only McCutchen was highly regarded. Everyone else was pretty much an after thought. In fact a lot of people complained when Kyle McPherson was added to the 40 man roster and he was considered a very puzzling addition by most.

The majority of the team that won 79 games last year was comprised of players that were not on the team in 2007.

If you bring in a new GM for the 2014 season he will have a lot more to work with and by 2017 I would suspect that the team at that time will be comprised of predominantly Huntington acquired players. Five years from now you won't have only 6 players in the entire organization from the Huntington regime. I would imagine it will be significantly higher.

Littlefield figuratively left this regime nothing. Worst in the majors, minors, no facilities in Latin American countries. All that has changed dramatically. It's night and day now.
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Posted: 02/21/2013 2:32 PM

RE: 337-472 (.416) 



katoy2j wrote: I strongly disagree.

Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker accomplish nothing. Without the changes that were made you would simply have both players playing out the course with nothing behind them. The same way that you had Brian Giles and then Jason Bay before them. When the Pirates had Jason Bay win rookie of the year they didn't have a top 10 and a top 20 prospect in the minors. They didn't have a bunch of other high quality prospects behind them either.


You can't have simply one player. This team had two half seasons of being a well above average team. They haven't been able to do it for an entire season. I really like Andrew McCutchen but the reality is this team did well last year because of their pitching. When the pitching went downhill last year so did the team.

Every single starting pitcher was acquired by Huntington with the exception of Kyle McPherson. The reason we had 79 wins last year was the pitching. This is the best pitching staff we have had since the playoff years.

McCutchen might be the star of this team but he isn't going to be the reason this team does well or poorly. If he has an average year where he gets 4.0 WAR or a great year where he gets 7.0 WAR will do very little to impact the standings. If he has an average year and the pitching does well then the team will do well. If he has a great year and the pitching does poorly then the team will do poorly.

Andrew McCutchen was on the 2010 Pirate team that lost more than 100 games.

It's about the pitching.

In 2007 here was the starting rotation

Matt Morris
Paul Maholm
Zach Duke
Tom Gorzelanny
Ian Snell

Only Maholm is still a starter. The others are simply relievers or out of baseball.

McCutchen was always a highly ranked prospect. However even with him in the organization we still had the worst farm system in baseball. Saying we had nothing is not a literal term. It's a figurative term. You always have something. The fact the major league roster was so poor and the minor league roster was so poor then figuratively we have had nothing. Obviously we still had something. We had Jason Bay in the majors and we had Andrew McCutchen in the minors. In terms of what other teams had either in the majors/minors in combination we had nothing. Now we have a lot more.

So Andrew McCutchen reached the majors in 2009 after being drafted in 2005 and put up 2.2 WAR. Pedro Alvarez was drafted in 2008 and in 2012 put up 2.6 WAR so it isn't as if we haven't gotten anything from Huntingtons drafts.

We've reached the point where we've almost cycled completely through all the players that were in the system before. The only ones that are left are the ones that the new regime thought enough to keep around. It isn't a very long list.

Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Jared Hughes, Tony Watson, Kyle McPherson and Starling Marte. I could be missing a guy or two. Only McCutchen was highly regarded. Everyone else was pretty much an after thought. In fact a lot of people complained when Kyle McPherson was added to the 40 man roster and he was considered a very puzzling addition by most.

The majority of the team that won 79 games last year was comprised of players that were not on the team in 2007.

If you bring in a new GM for the 2014 season he will have a lot more to work with and by 2017 I would suspect that the team at that time will be comprised of predominantly Huntington acquired players. Five years from now you won't have only 6 players in the entire organization from the Huntington regime. I would imagine it will be significantly higher.

Littlefield figuratively left this regime nothing. Worst in the majors, minors, no facilities in Latin American countries. All that has changed dramatically. It's night and day now.
Let me ask this about WAR since you guys are using to make a point. If the average 3B puts up mediocre stats wouldn't it be easier to put up a good WAR say above a position that has multiple stars? In essence a 3B with a 3.0 is could not be as valuable as a CF with a 2.0 WAR.
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Posted: 02/21/2013 3:27 PM

RE: 337-472 (.416) 


Cutch reached the majors in 2009, with an OPS that year of .836 (433 at bats) and a WAR of 2.2.

So drafted in 2005 and to the majors in four years (with a substantial contribution). As such, he progressed through the system fairly quickly.

William's and Sangue's point, I think, was more in response to Nutting's taking credit for how far the organization has come, without any acknowledgement that much of the current success is the result of actions of the prior management team. It is also a reaction to those who want to give the current management tremendous credit for turning things around since when they arrived the team had "no talent".


Yep.  Spot on.
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Posted: 02/21/2013 7:21 PM

RE: 337-472 (.416) 


Type all you like. Last year's team doesn't come close to 79 wins without Cutch and Neil.

The point isn't to defend Littlefield, but rather just to temper Nutting's patting of his own back.

Heck, in a perverse way, Littlefield's failures have made Huntington's job easier. It wasn't any baseball genius that got us Pedro, Cole, and/or Taillon. Instead we got to draft those guys because the MLB team was horrible.



---------------------------------------------
--- katoy2j wrote:

I strongly disagree.

Andrew McCutchen and Neil Walker accomplish nothing. Without the changes that were made you would simply have both players playing out the course with nothing behind them. The same way that you had Brian Giles and then Jason Bay before them. When the Pirates had Jason Bay win rookie of the year they didn't have a top 10 and a top 20 prospect in the minors. They didn't have a bunch of other high quality prospects behind them either.


You can't have simply one player. This team had two half seasons of being a well above average team. They haven't been able to do it for an entire season. I really like Andrew McCutchen but the reality is this team did well last year because of their pitching. When the pitching went downhill last year so did the team.

Every single starting pitcher was acquired by Huntington with the exception of Kyle McPherson. The reason we had 79 wins last year was the pitching. This is the best pitching staff we have had since the playoff years.

McCutchen might be the star of this team but he isn't going to be the reason this team does well or poorly. If he has an average year where he gets 4.0 WAR or a great year where he gets 7.0 WAR will do very little to impact the standings. If he has an average year and the pitching does well then the team will do well. If he has a great year and the pitching does poorly then the team will do poorly.

Andrew McCutchen was on the 2010 Pirate team that lost more than 100 games.

It's about the pitching.

In 2007 here was the starting rotation

Matt Morris
Paul Maholm
Zach Duke
Tom Gorzelanny
Ian Snell

Only Maholm is still a starter. The others are simply relievers or out of baseball.

McCutchen was always a highly ranked prospect. However even with him in the organization we still had the worst farm system in baseball. Saying we had nothing is not a literal term. It's a figurative term. You always have something. The fact the major league roster was so poor and the minor league roster was so poor then figuratively we have had nothing. Obviously we still had something. We had Jason Bay in the majors and we had Andrew McCutchen in the minors. In terms of what other teams had either in the majors/minors in combination we had nothing. Now we have a lot more.

So Andrew McCutchen reached the majors in 2009 after being drafted in 2005 and put up 2.2 WAR. Pedro Alvarez was drafted in 2008 and in 2012 put up 2.6 WAR so it isn't as if we haven't gotten anything from Huntingtons drafts.

We've reached the point where we've almost cycled completely through all the players that were in the system before. The only ones that are left are the ones that the new regime thought enough to keep around. It isn't a very long list.

Andrew McCutchen, Neil Walker, Jared Hughes, Tony Watson, Kyle McPherson and Starling Marte. I could be missing a guy or two. Only McCutchen was highly regarded. Everyone else was pretty much an after thought. In fact a lot of people complained when Kyle McPherson was added to the 40 man roster and he was considered a very puzzling addition by most.

The majority of the team that won 79 games last year was comprised of players that were not on the team in 2007.

If you bring in a new GM for the 2014 season he will have a lot more to work with and by 2017 I would suspect that the team at that time will be comprised of predominantly Huntington acquired players. Five years from now you won't have only 6 players in the entire organization from the Huntington regime. I would imagine it will be significantly higher.

Littlefield figuratively left this regime nothing. Worst in the majors, minors, no facilities in Latin American countries. All that has changed dramatically. It's night and day now.

---------------------------------------------

___________

 

  

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Posted: 02/21/2013 11:54 PM

RE: 337-472 (.416) 



gr1111 wrote: Type all you like. Last year's team doesn't come close to 79 wins without Cutch and Neil.

The point isn't to defend Littlefield, but rather just to temper Nutting's patting of his own back.

Heck, in a perverse way, Littlefield's failures have made Huntington's job easier. It wasn't any baseball genius that got us Pedro, Cole, and/or Taillon. Instead we got to draft those guys because the MLB team was horrible.




The MLB team was horrible for 15 years before Huntington got here.  It's not like Littlefield was picking at the end of the draft.  He had top 5 picks all the time.  He passed on a lot of good players.  It was reported that when we drafted Brad Lincoln in 2006 that the head scout was extremely vocal about taking Clayton Kershaw with that pick.  Littlefield went with Lincoln instead.

The Pirates had the first pick in the 2002 draft and took Bryan Bullington a player who they proclaimed to be a solid number 3 starter.  Unless the draft is god awful you should be plenty disappointed if you get a number 3 starter with the first overall pick.  They could of easily taken BJ Upton.

I don't want to hear that it was because they were cheap because that wasn't the case.  Bryan Bullington got 4 million and BJ Upton got 4.6 million.  Upton got the most in the draft and Bullington was second.  Still if saving money was the goal they could of went with other top 7 picks like Prince Fielder (2.4 million) or Zach Greinke (2.5 million)  They drafted horribly it wasn't about money.

If you're going to take a pitcher with a high draft pick you better make sure he has ace potential.  The Pirates picked #3 starter after number #3 starter, year in and year out.  Bradley, Burnett, Van Benschoten, Bullington, Maholm, Moskos.  The reason they sucked is because they wasted those picks.  Littlefield had some luck when he went for hitters in Walker and McCutchen.  The problem is he took so many damn pitchers with such little upside.
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