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Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals

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Posted: 02/19/2013 12:53 PM

Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Yet, others on the team acknowledged Monday that the Pirates’ clubhouse dynamic did change around the trade deadline last season. Huntington and Hurdle are among those responsible for the subsequent results; Huntington made the moves in question, and Hurdle failed to mold the new unit into a cohesive group on and off the field.

Amid reports that the Pirates were pursuing bigger names, such as Chase Headley and Justin Upton, Huntington dealt for left-handed starter Wandy Rodriguez, right-handed reliever Chad Qualls, outfielder Travis Snider and first baseman Gaby Sanchez. Rodriguez lost four of his first five decisions as a Pirate, while the loss of reliever Brad Lincoln — sent to Toronto for Snider — compromised the bullpen’s depth.

“I’m not a GM, but any time you change the team chemistry, it always hurts,” Pirates closer Jason Grilli said. “You change the guys you’re comfortable with, it’s like, ‘Wait a minute. That was a piece we liked, we needed.’ Not that anybody’s asking us for our opinions.”

The Pirates made win-now moves at the 2011 non-waiver trade deadline, adding prospective free agents Derrek Lee and Ryan Ludwick. But Huntington took a different approach last year, acquiring three players he could control beyond 2012 — Rodriguez, Snider and Sanchez — in what some interpreted as an acknowledgment of the Pirates’ low-payroll reality.
 

“Maybe some of it’s the economics here,” Grilli said. “Players know the situation. To get a top-tier bat … maybe the expectations were a little higher on our end. That’s not a knock against who we got. It’s just when you’re winning, it’s like, ‘Dude, do you want to go for the gusto here? Do you want to go for the jugular?’ … Pull the trigger. Do you want to win? Do you want to change?

“As a player, it’s like, ‘Come on. Let’s see. Give us the pieces.’ Last year, the names being thrown around were (Hunter) Pence, (Shane) Victorino, Upton. … If anybody’s going to do it, you’d think a team that hasn’t won and is in first place would be the first to do it. Let’s not wait.”

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/s...t-hurdle-021913

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Posted: 02/19/2013 1:35 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Gaby Sanchez and Travis Snider sure seemed to throw some cold water on the party.  It seemed like Casey McGehee and Drew Sutton were well liked by the other Pirates.  You could see the difference in the Pirates bench - they went from being like family to like strangers with some small cliques.

The went from the whole being greater than the sum of the parts to the whole being significantly less than the sum of the parts as soon as the trades were made.  Zoltan was a lot of fun, then after the trades, it got old and stale fast.
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Posted: 02/19/2013 2:03 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Funny... to think, back in July when I said that players know the difference between "expected production" and "hopeful production", I was told that I was wrong.  It's possible the other 20+ guys aren't don't agree, but at least Grilli and I are on the same page.

#fringeprospect
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Posted: 02/19/2013 2:23 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Thank god Grilli isn't the GM, we would be screwed.  I wonder if he realizes that every player he mentioned absolutely sucked after the trade deadline.  He should shut up and pitch, he was part of the problem in the second half of the season.  In the first half he had a .145 average against and a 1.87 ERA, after the all-star break he had a .280 average against and a 4.32 ERA.

Like I said, Don't complain to the media, especially if you were part of the problem.  Grilli just became one of my least favorite Pirates.

Last edited 02/19/2013 2:24 PM by cferrel3

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Posted: 02/19/2013 3:12 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



cferrel3 wrote: Thank god Grilli isn't the GM, we would be screwed.  I wonder if he realizes that every player he mentioned absolutely sucked after the trade deadline.  He should shut up and pitch, he was part of the problem in the second half of the season.  In the first half he had a .145 average against and a 1.87 ERA, after the all-star break he had a .280 average against and a 4.32 ERA.

Like I said, Don't complain to the media, especially if you were part of the problem.  Grilli just became one of my least favorite Pirates.
We are in a period of "all time screwed".  Grilli as GM or Raggedy Andy as GM could not have done worse than any of the GM's presiding over the last 20 years.
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Posted: 02/19/2013 3:12 PM

RE: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Jason Grilli, career journeyman who was rescued from the minor leagues and given a shot again at the majors at age 32 should be the last person to open his mouth about who was brought in at the trade deadline.

The roster was upgraded. It wasn't Sanchez, Snider or Rodriguez that were the problem it was the guys who were on the roster before who struggled. That includes Grilli.

I was happy Grilli came back to the Pirates and I thought it would be right for the Pirates to keep him for both years because he signed a team friendly deal. That goodwill is out the window now as far as I'm concerned. Trade him whenever. I think he'll do fine as closer but if you can get a few pieces next offseason you move him and make Black, Morris or Melancon the closer.
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Posted: 02/19/2013 3:24 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


I liked the acquisition of Travis Snider in theory, but in a way I agree with what Grilli is saying here. The Pirates were right in the thick of the race and while these guys(Victorino, Pence) didn't perform after being dealt there has to be some intangible benefit to the guys in the clubhouse seeing the front office make a "win-now" move. Even if Pence struggles at the plate upon arrival he could have "injected life" into the clubhouse and maybe some other guys perform at a higher level than they would have. I realize this isn't something that can be quantified, so no need to try to refute this on that level, but to the guys on the 25 in the heat of the battle some quality reinforcements might have helped stem the slide the team had in August/September.
Blame it on "a certain someone"
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Posted: 02/19/2013 4:10 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Amen Grilli. You cant make trades just to make them. Outside the Wandy trade, the trades last season did nothing for the team. Snyder and Sanchez were both bench players that should be brought in during Spring not in a pennet race. Qualls was a joke and should never been on the team.

I think what Grilli was saying if you are going to make a change during the season then make it a great one. Dont shuffle up the roster with players new players that are really not different than what you have. It messed with chemistry. I know I was told that Chemistry was over rated on this board by a few people, but it looks like it was right on the money. Sometimes the best trade is the one you didnt make.....
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Posted: 02/19/2013 6:35 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


The funny thing is the Pirate did make the "big" move.  They traded a package that included a top-100 prospect type, an MLB ready starting pitcher, and a young talented A-ball pitcher for a proven front of the rotation starter (number 3 at the worst).  Snider and Sanchez were just brought in to upgrade the outfield and the platoon first base option, which greatly needed upgrading.  Neither of them were brought in to make a huge impact, that was Rodiguez.  So i'm not sure what Grilli is complaining about.

So one, I think he is completely wrong.  And two, a player should NEVER run their mouth to the media.  Say it in the clubhouse all you want, or take it to the front office.  It is immature and childish to run your mouth to the media.  Go to the people involved like a man.  I'm with Katoy, as soon as we get a good offer for Grilli this season or next offseason, pull the trigger and get this guy off the team.  Maybe he is showing his true colors and was part of the chemistry problem in the second half, classless move.
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Posted: 02/19/2013 6:45 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



cferrel3 wrote:  I'm with Katoy, as soon as we get a good offer for Grilli this season or next offseason, pull the trigger and get this guy off the team.  Maybe he is showing his true colors and was part of the chemistry problem in the second half, classless move.
I have no problem trading Grilli as based on his 2nd half numbers he may have been a flash in the pan anyways.  I doubt he will be an effective closer.  He'll get 20+ saves but he will have quite a few blown saves as well.  Certainly more than Hanrahan.  The Pirates aren't expecting to win anything in 2013 - they may as well have had Morris and Melancon battle it out for the closer role.  I guess its cheaper to pay Grilli now than pay Morris or Melancon in artbitration after 3 years of 25+ saves.
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Posted: 02/19/2013 6:52 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



Sangue wrote:
cferrel3 wrote:  I'm with Katoy, as soon as we get a good offer for Grilli this season or next offseason, pull the trigger and get this guy off the team.  Maybe he is showing his true colors and was part of the chemistry problem in the second half, classless move.
I have no problem trading Grilli as based on his 2nd half numbers he may have been a flash in the pan anyways.  I doubt he will be an effective closer.  He'll get 20+ saves but he will have quite a few blown saves as well.  Certainly more than Hanrahan.  The Pirates aren't expecting to win anything in 2013 - they may as well have had Morris and Melancon battle it out for the closer role.  I guess its cheaper to pay Grilli now than pay Morris or Melancon in artbitration after 3 years of 25+ saves.
Yeah, I think Morris and Melancon are both good options to close.  They have above-average, closer level, stuff.  However, if Victor Black can get his control to a manageable level he has the makings of an elite closer.  I just read an article talking about him throwing batting practice at spring training today and the MLB hitter were having trouble making solid contact off of him.  He throws his fastball in the mid-90's with a ton of movement, and has an elite slider.
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Posted: 02/19/2013 9:11 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


Robbie Grossman isn't a top 100 prospect. Is he on any current top 100 lists (except for katoy's)? Giving him up was no big deal, imo.

It is obvious what Grilli and other players were thinking --they wanted management to make a big splash, and what they got was a little ripple of a #3 starter. Agree or not, that is what he was complaining about.


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--- cferrel3 wrote:

The funny thing is the Pirate did make the "big" move.  They traded a package that included a top-100 prospect type, an MLB ready starting pitcher, and a young talented A-ball pitcher for a proven front of the rotation starter (number 3 at the worst).  Snider and Sanchez were just brought in to upgrade the outfield and the platoon first base option, which greatly needed upgrading.  Neither of them were brought in to make a huge impact, that was Rodiguez.  So i'm not sure what Grilli is complaining about.

So one, I think he is completely wrong.  And two, a player should NEVER run their mouth to the media.  Say it in the clubhouse all you want, or take it to the front office.  It is immature and childish to run your mouth to the media.  Go to the people involved like a man.  I'm with Katoy, as soon as we get a good offer for Grilli this season or next offseason, pull the trigger and get this guy off the team.  Maybe he is showing his true colors and was part of the chemistry problem in the second half, classless move.

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Posted: 02/19/2013 10:08 PM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



gr1111 wrote: Robbie Grossman isn't a top 100 prospect. Is he on any current top 100 lists (except for katoy's)? Giving him up was no big deal, imo.

It is obvious what Grilli and other players were thinking --they wanted management to make a big splash, and what they got was a little ripple of a #3 starter. Agree or not, that is what he was complaining about.


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--- cferrel3 wrote:

The funny thing is the Pirate did make the "big" move.  They traded a package that included a top-100 prospect type, an MLB ready starting pitcher, and a young talented A-ball pitcher for a proven front of the rotation starter (number 3 at the worst).  Snider and Sanchez were just brought in to upgrade the outfield and the platoon first base option, which greatly needed upgrading.  Neither of them were brought in to make a huge impact, that was Rodiguez.  So i'm not sure what Grilli is complaining about.

So one, I think he is completely wrong.  And two, a player should NEVER run their mouth to the media.  Say it in the clubhouse all you want, or take it to the front office.  It is immature and childish to run your mouth to the media.  Go to the people involved like a man.  I'm with Katoy, as soon as we get a good offer for Grilli this season or next offseason, pull the trigger and get this guy off the team.  Maybe he is showing his true colors and was part of the chemistry problem in the second half, classless move.

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He is on Keith Law's 10 that "just missed", I think that is the highest I saw him on any.  He is a fringe top-100, like a said top-100 type.  If he doesn't lose his rookie status this season and has another good year, he will be on just about every top-100 list next season.  Giving him up wasn't "no big deal" since he was our 6th ranked prospect last season.  We gave up 3 of our top 15 prospects for Rodriguez, that is nothing to sneeze at. 

He doesn't give a crap about the Pirates future because he won't be apart of it, that is why he wanted us to give up our top prospects for Justin Upton or Hunter Pence (both would have been a huge mistake IMO).  He needs to shut his mouth to the media and pitch well, period.  He was wrong to go public with that.
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Posted: 02/20/2013 5:16 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


I am sorry, but you could have acquired Pence, Victorino, and Upton at the deadline and this team would still have collapsed.

The pitching went in the sh$tter, both starters and relievers, and the best player McCutchen totally faded down the stretch.

I am glad we did not give up a Marte, a Tailon, or any other top prospects for a rental player. It would not have helped.

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Posted: 02/20/2013 6:14 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 


A guy who is in the locker room is talking about chemistry issues that can't possibly be quantified, and the sabermetric crowd rushes in to call him an idiot.  I'm shocked eek
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 02/20/2013 6:31 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



cferrel3 wrote: The funny thing is the Pirate did make the "big" move.  They traded a package that included a top-100 prospect type, an MLB ready starting pitcher, and a young talented A-ball pitcher for a proven front of the rotation starter (number 3 at the worst).  Snider and Sanchez were just brought in to upgrade the outfield and the platoon first base option, which greatly needed upgrading.  Neither of them were brought in to make a huge impact, that was Rodiguez.  So i'm not sure what Grilli is complaining about.

So one, I think he is completely wrong.  And two, a player should NEVER run their mouth to the media.  Say it in the clubhouse all you want, or take it to the front office.  It is immature and childish to run your mouth to the media.  Go to the people involved like a man.  I'm with Katoy, as soon as we get a good offer for Grilli this season or next offseason, pull the trigger and get this guy off the team.  Maybe he is showing his true colors and was part of the chemistry problem in the second half, classless move.
Wandy is not a top of the rotation starter, he is a #3 at best not worst. It was a good trade, but I have never been a Wandy fan. The rest of the trades were garbage and hurt the chemistry of the team. It was like management was saying, " You guys are not good enough the way you are". You dont mess with a team that is overachieving. Like I said I can understand the Wandy trade even though I was not a fan. But the other trades, even though may have been better long team deals, hurt the team in the short run.
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Posted: 02/20/2013 7:25 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



vinnybravo wrote:

Wandy is not a top of the rotation starter, he is a #3 at best not worst. It was a good trade, but I have never been a Wandy fan. The rest of the trades were garbage and hurt the chemistry of the team. It was like management was saying, " You guys are not good enough the way you are". You dont mess with a team that is overachieving. Like I said I can understand the Wandy trade even though I was not a fan. But the other trades, even though may have been better long team deals, hurt the team in the short run.

Wandy is not the Wandy of old - as he has lost a lot off his fastball.  To his credit, he's learned to pitch - kind of like Jeff Karstens - of course Karstens never had the fastball to begin with.

Last edited 02/20/2013 7:27 AM by Sangue

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Posted: 02/20/2013 7:46 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



GhostOfPBG wrote: A guy who is in the locker room is talking about chemistry issues that can't possibly be quantified, and the sabermetric crowd rushes in to call him an idiot.  I'm shocked eek

My thoughts exactly biggrin

I think if people actually take note of what Grilli actually said (meaning, just read his quotes and not the article), they’d see exactly who/what he’s talking about.  He’s specifically targeting the Lincoln Snider deal.  People can talk “collapse” all they want, but what came first… the trades or the decline in play?

The Pirates got Rodriguez on July 25, Snider on the 30th.  In that 6-day stretch, the Pirates were 4-2.  Then the Phillies traded Victorino to the Dodgers on the 31st and Pence to the Giants on August 1st.  From August 2nd on, came the nose-dive.  You can talk coincidence all you want, but it’s obvious from the performances on the field that the players in the clubhouse were disappointed.

#fringeprospect
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Posted: 02/20/2013 8:20 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



GhostOfPBG wrote: A guy who is in the locker room is talking about chemistry issues that can't possibly be quantified, and the sabermetric crowd rushes in to call him an idiot.  I'm shocked eek

Sabermetric crowd?  So I'm lumped into a group because I use every possible tool to evaluate a player.  To not use every available tool would be dumb and very inefficient.  Not sure why anyone would choose not to. 

And second, being upset at Grilli for saying that has nothing to do with numbers, stats, or quantitative data at all, so it has nothing to do with sabermetrics.  You NEVER, EVER, go complain to the media about something involved with your organization.  It is classless and immature.  I'm sure there are a lot of people in that clubhouse (players and management) very unhappy with him at the moment and he would be best suited to apologize immediately and admit it was a dumb mistake.  You say it man-to-man and keep it in house, this is one of the main rules in locker room, clubhouse, etc. etiquette over the history of sports.  It is a huge "no no" to go to the media to complain about anything.
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Posted: 02/20/2013 8:31 AM

Re: Grilli unhappy with Huntington for 2012 deadline deals 



TBayXXXVII wrote:
GhostOfPBG wrote: A guy who is in the locker room is talking about chemistry issues that can't possibly be quantified, and the sabermetric crowd rushes in to call him an idiot.  I'm shocked eek

My thoughts exactly biggrin

I think if people actually take note of what Grilli actually said (meaning, just read his quotes and not the article), they’d see exactly who/what he’s talking about.  He’s specifically targeting the Lincoln Snider deal.  People can talk “collapse” all they want, but what came first… the trades or the decline in play?

The Pirates got Rodriguez on July 25, Snider on the 30th.  In that 6-day stretch, the Pirates were 4-2.  Then the Phillies traded Victorino to the Dodgers on the 31st and Pence to the Giants on August 1st.  From August 2nd on, came the nose-dive.  You can talk coincidence all you want, but it’s obvious from the performances on the field that the players in the clubhouse were disappointed.

Then quite honestly, those players are not worth anything then if they let their play slip so far south because of something they have no control over. Are they allowed to be dissappointed? Yeah for sure, but they need to take off their diapers and worry about themselves instead of dwelling on something they had no control over.

Did trading Lincoln cause McCutchen to hit 200 the last 3 months. If so, then he is worthless.

DId trading Lincoln cause Burnett to pitch half as well as he did the first half? If so, then again he is worthless.

 

Did trading Lincoln cause McDonald to completely forget how to throw a strike and how to get a batter out? Again, if so then he is worthless.

I am sorry, I think it is an extremely lame excuse to use that as an excuse as to why players such as McCutchen, Burnett, McDonald, etc.. fell off the 2nd half of the season. It is a total coup out in my opinion. They need to worry about themselves and do the job they are paid to do.

Now, if the Pirates lost in the 2nd half of the season because of a specific need that wasn't filled I would be on board. But that wasnt the case. They fell off because players like McCutchen, Burnett, McDonald, the bullpen, all crapped the bed in the 2nd half. And if the reason they did that was because they were mad at the trades, then good grief they are weak minded worthless individuals from a baseball standpoint.

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