Posted: 02/11/2013 10:36 AM
The Major League Baseball draft is unique in that any player in the US or US territory who is eligible to be drafted can be selected. Unlike with the NFL and NBA drafts, players don't have to opt-in to be drafted. With that in mind, college baseball players should be allowed more leeway than their basketball and football brethren when it comes to hiring an advisor, writes Chris Webb. Full Story | Discuss
Posted: 02/11/2013 10:56 AM
Posted: 02/11/2013 12:07 PM
Posted: 02/11/2013 12:14 PM
vinnybravo wrote: I think all players who want to play in MLB should have to declare for the draft. If no one drafts them then they can sign as a FA with any team. If they do get drafted then they have to sign or go back into the next draft.
Posted: 02/11/2013 1:13 PM
TBayXXXVII wrote: vinnybravo wrote: I think all players who want to play in MLB should have to declare for the draft. If no one drafts them then they can sign as a FA with any team. If they do get drafted then they have to sign or go back into the next draft. I agree. I think the NFL and NBA have it right on this. You have to declare in order to be drafted... period. You also have a deadline where you can back out. Make that 1 week before draft. This way, guys like Appel can shop their skills and demands all they want. If they think there's a chance he doesn't get what he wants, then he backs out of the draft and goes back (or goes into), college. If you stay in the draft and get drafted, your rights belong to the team that drafted you for 3 years. You have a wage scale. No team is going to play hardball and offer you $50K per year. That system currently exists in the NFL and NBA and no one tries to screw the kids over.
Posted: 02/11/2013 1:26 PM
Posted: 02/11/2013 2:34 PM
CutchTruth wrote: TBayXXXVII wrote: vinnybravo wrote: I think all players who want to play in MLB should have to declare for the draft. If no one drafts them then they can sign as a FA with any team. If they do get drafted then they have to sign or go back into the next draft.I agree. I think the NFL and NBA have it right on this. You have to declare in order to be drafted... period. You also have a deadline where you can back out. Make that 1 week before draft. This way, guys like Appel can shop their skills and demands all they want. If they think there's a chance he doesn't get what he wants, then he backs out of the draft and goes back (or goes into), college. If you stay in the draft and get drafted, your rights belong to the team that drafted you for 3 years. You have a wage scale. No team is going to play hardball and offer you $50K per year. That system currently exists in the NFL and NBA and no one tries to screw the kids over.So virtually every HS player declares for the draft. He plays hardball, doesn't sign, and a team retains his rights for three years, the exact amount of time before he's draft eligible again anyway.I guess guy who are draft eligible sophomores might pass, but other than that.
TBayXXXVII wrote: vinnybravo wrote: I think all players who want to play in MLB should have to declare for the draft. If no one drafts them then they can sign as a FA with any team. If they do get drafted then they have to sign or go back into the next draft.I agree. I think the NFL and NBA have it right on this. You have to declare in order to be drafted... period. You also have a deadline where you can back out. Make that 1 week before draft. This way, guys like Appel can shop their skills and demands all they want. If they think there's a chance he doesn't get what he wants, then he backs out of the draft and goes back (or goes into), college. If you stay in the draft and get drafted, your rights belong to the team that drafted you for 3 years. You have a wage scale. No team is going to play hardball and offer you $50K per year. That system currently exists in the NFL and NBA and no one tries to screw the kids over.
Posted: 02/11/2013 3:53 PM
Posted: 02/11/2013 7:01 PM
Posted: 02/12/2013 5:36 AM
katoy2j wrote: Heres the thing though you can't have it both ways. The reason why these kids in the Dominican are getting signed is because major league teams are investing in academies for them to develop in. If you just have a draft with these players then teams have no reason to invest money in the countries for baseball purposes. If you don't invest and treat the players as amateurs then all the players would become non existent. There is no organized baseball league for these kids as the countries are too poor. The academies are as much about good will with the player. You bring a bunch of kids to the Pirates academies in hopes that they sign with you.Long story short if you treat players in the Dominican, Venezuela and other places like amateurs and include them in the draft then you might as well eliminate players from these countries entirely because the talent will pretty much evaporate. There isn't high school games for you to attend to watch these kids play. These kids are developed in academies at 8 and 9 years old by money pumped into the system. You might as well send scouts door to door and do radar gun readings on kids.
Posted: 02/12/2013 6:34 AM
Posted: 02/12/2013 8:08 AM
katoy2j wrote: You fail to understand though that the NFL and NBA drafts are completely different than the MLB draft. The NBA and NFL draft treat the NCAA as the minor leagues. When you get drafted in those sports you're pretty much a professional from day one.The MLB is completely different. You can pretty much count the guys on one hand who have come out of college. Notice how I said college and not high school who don't spend any time in the minors.The MLB and NHL drafts are very different from the rest because players don't make the major leagues right out of the gates. In the NHL a few elite drafted players will make the pros from the get go but the majority do not. It pretty much never happens in baseball. What hockey has is the CHL. It's basically a development system which consists of both players who are drafted and are too young to be drafted. Pretty much any North American hockey player who is any good comes from this league and more and more International players are coming as well. You have players who are 15,16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 all playing together. It's one giant league divided into 3 sub leagues. If a player doesn't make the NHL right away he is required to stay in the league for a year before he then goes into the team it was drafted by minor league team.Baseball has nothing like this. You go into the minor league system of the team your drafted by. The money is a major issue because of the high fail rate of prospects because no matter who you draft in college they will be 2-3 years away from the majors at least.The sports are completely different. Even this year in baseball which was considered the best ever by young players because of Trout and Harper those players still spent significant time in the minors. If they had gone to college they still would of needed some time in the minors. On the other hand the NFL has no minor league system. Every draft players who are taken become immediate stars. Same as in the NBA. That is why the two sports are different. In baseball the top pick in Gerritt Cole gets drafted in 2010 but won't throw a pitch in the majors for three years and that is considered moving quickly. In football if you're a third round pick you're expected to start right away. These players make big money because the risk is small. You can give the first overall NBA pick a 4 year contract worth a guaranteed 25 million for the first 4 years because the chance of failure is pretty small. He might not become a superstar but he will be a serviceable player. In baseball a good percentage of first round picks never even make the majors. Ever. What is the percentage of NFL and NBA picks that don't make the pros? 5% maybe if that? That is the main difference between the sports and you fail to realize that. In the NBA you get a guaranteed contract if you're drafted in the first round. You get picked 30th overall it still means you're going to make 6-8 million dollars. You have a safety net as a player in those sports as you have enough money to live on for the rest of your life. If you're drafted at the end of the first round in MLB you get maybe a million dollars as a signing bonus. Half that is gone in taxes, agent takes a cut and suddenly all you have to show for your big payday is around 400K. While that sounds like a lot of money to average people for an athlete with a short shelf life it's peanuts. Then it's going to be 2 or 3 years till that player even makes the majors to make any real money again and that is only if they get that far.You can't use the NFL and NBA systems for the MLB because they are completely different sports. The only way you could have a similar system is if you set an age range of 25 years old and say that you can't play professional baseball till your of that age. Something like that will never happen though because there would be lawsuits beyond belief.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here Katoy because I have no idea what point you're trying to make. All I'm saying is that the kids should have to declare for the draft and not automatically be considered... just like the NFL and NBA. I don't see why the differences of the game matter on that front. If you want to get drafted, you should declare. Simple.
As far as the rest goes, it's simple as well. Players can see what teams think of them. If they feel that they are grossly undervalued then they back out of the draft and go back to (or go on to - in a high schoolers case), to college. Again, I don't see where that's an issue. From a finances perspective, the CBA takes care of that. Like I said, teams won't be able to hard ball a kid and offer him $50K. The draft picks are slotted at "X" amount of dollars.Put this into practice last year. Appel thinks he's worth $7M (I don't remember the exact number - but it really is irrelevant). Up until a week before the draft, he had multiple teams say that they weren't going to pay him that much and that they were going to pay him slot money. Well, if Appel (and Boras), think that he's not going to get the number he wants, then he backs out of the draft... plays his senior year and comes out next year. Good. Works for everyone. Appel (Boras really), doesn't waste time in negotiations trying to get what he can't, the team doesn't waste a draft pick, and there's no negative impact for the team or league.Now, say Appel and Boras think teams are bluffing and things play out as they did and Pirates draft him at #8. The Pirates go to him and offer him the couple hundred thousand over slot. He either takes the deal and begins his pro career with the Pirates... or he goes to an independent league for 3 years and goes back into the draft.This really looks simple to me. I don't see how finances and the way the game is played and how it differs from the NFL or NBA matters. This is simply a way to be more organized.Specifically about your last paragraph. There is a VERY easy way to avoid lawsuits. The NFL and NBA have gone to court and have won. All that needs to happen is to have the "age restriction" be worded differently an be in the Collective Bargaining Agreement. All MLB would have to do is just say that no player is eligible for the draft until 2 years removed from their college graduating class. There's no age. If you graduate high school at 16, you're college graduating class is when you're 20... so you're eligible at 22. If you graduate college in 3 years and you're 21, you're eligible at for the draft at 23. As long as that's agreed upon in the CBA, there's no way a player can challenge it and win. Maurice Clarrett tried it and lost. A high school kid tried it 2 years ago in the NBA and lost. If it's collectively bargained, it's done.
Posted: 02/12/2013 8:48 AM
Last edited 02/12/2013 8:49 AM by katoy2j
Posted: 02/12/2013 9:23 AM
Posted: 02/12/2013 9:29 AM
Posted: 02/12/2013 11:01 AM
katoy2j wrote: You're missing the main issue of why it's not realistic because of the differences between NBA/NFL and MLB.When you get drafted in the NBA or the NFL you play professionally right away. Sure you might sit on the bench as the 15th guy but you're still making the NBA minimum which is around a million dollars. In baseball however it's totally different. You get drafted and get a signing bonus and you play for years in the minors and make nothing. The average player will take 4-5 years before he reaches the majors and draws a major league salary. You can't have a set slotted system where you can't pull out and go to school because you need to pay high school kids money in order to skip school. It's also very difficult to rank baseball players 1-100. There usually isn't much difference between the 30th ranked player and the 90th ranked player.Personally I don't think the draft needs any changes. Teams are capped on spending so the best players are generally going to the teams that need them. The slotting system that is in place means that players who want to play hardball like Appel did really don't see much benefit. Sure he could get more money than the Pirates offered him but he'll never get more than the Astros offered him. It was more an issue of Boras and his ego. Boras is starting to get knocked around a bit and I can see players leaving him and his tactics. Michael Bourn was ranked ahead of BJ Upton as an outfielder. Boras did his usual thing and dragged his feet because he wanted the market to establish itself so he could top it with Bourn. So many teams needed CF'ers so Bourn was going to get a huge payday. Then Upton signed for 5 years and 75 million. Instead of saying well there is the market, Boras came out with outlandish demands of 18 million a year for 5 years. All the other teams just signed other players or made trades and then suddenly there wasn't a team with a glaring need in CF. So Bourn ends up signing for 4 years and 48 million. Sure it's still a lot of money bit Michael Bourn is a good player and was never going to have to worry about not making money but because of Boras he probably cost himself 15-18 million. Back to the draft Appel was the only first rounder that didn't sign. Usually it's 3 or 4 guys a year that din't sign. All the first rounders are getting decent money so they will usually sign. They know they can't make more money. It's the later round players that will always be difficult to sign. A lot of the times though these players tell the team that they want to go to school. That is why a guy like Walker Buehler who was a top 50 talent lasts till the 14th round or whatever it was. Teams know he is almost guaranteed to go to school but with a late round pick they will draft him in the chance he changes his mind. Usually they won't because you really can't offer more than a couple of hundred thousand for guys outside the top 10 rounds.
Ok, I didn't read the main article because I'm not a subscriber... it's possible that I am missing something that you're referencing in the write up that I didn't see becasuse I don't understand where you're coming from at all. If that's the case, I appologize.Money really has absolutely nothing to do with this. The way baseball works it's contracts doesn't have to change at all. Simply, you can't get drafted unless you declare. You have a deadline before the draft to back out. If you back out, you can go on to or back to college. If you stay in the draft and get drafted, you can't go on to or back college. If you don't sign with your team, they own your draft rights for 3 years. After that 3 years, you may re-enter the draft. How does any of this have anything to do with money? I only stated money in the sense that teams wouldn't be able to lowball the kids because baseball has a system in place via the CBA that teams have to follow. Basically, the NFL and NBA draft systems already are much like the MLB draft with respect to college seniors. If Appel gets drafted 5th overall this year... is that team going to offer him $100K? No. They're going to pay him his slot money. When Appel comes out this year, what happens? He'll get drafted in the top 10 (barring any unforseen circumstances), and get paid whatever that slot requires, right? If he doesn't like the deal and doesn't sign, what happens? He does a J.D. Drew and plays independant league ball and re-enters the draft next year and tries again, right? Well, that's EXACTLY what happens in the NFL and NBA, though in baseball you can come back the following year where as the NFL and NBA make you wait 3. ** side note to all - If someone knows can you double check or correct me on that 3 year wait. It might not be that long anymore.** Anyway, all I'm saying is to do that from Day 1... for everyone, including international players. Day 1 being the second a kid turns 18. IF a high school kid declares for the draft and gets drafted, he's treated like a college senior. If a week or 2 before the draft (wherever they set the date), he backs out of the draft, he isn't eligible for the draft and goes on to college. Same with college kids. A junior declares and gets drafted, he's treated like a college senior. If he backs out before the deadline, he can go back to college for his senior season. This has nothing to do with money.Now, the NCAA doesn't have to change or work with MLB or the players on this, they already have their rules in place. Once you "hire" an agent, you no longer have college eligibilty. So, part of this MLB practice simply would be, 'you are automatically ineligible for the draft unless you hire an agent'. Done. No NCAA cooperation needed.
Posted: 02/12/2013 3:17 PM
katoy2j wrote: The D league players still receive 100% of their NBA salary. They simply go down to get some reps in. The players that belong to the NBA teams make NBA salaries. This is fine because you can only have 15 players under contract. The D league is more of a league for players who have no place to play and need a showcase to audition for NBA teams in case of injury. There might be 5 players who actually have NBA contracts who are in the league for more than a few games at a time.Baseball on the other hand you might have as many as 200 players under contract outside of the 25 guys on your major league roster. If you paid those players the major league minimum you would be spending 100 million dollars simply on minor league players.
Posted: 02/12/2013 4:53 PM
Posted: 02/12/2013 5:19 PM
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