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Liriano Deal Official

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Posted: 02/08/2013 10:56 AM

Liriano Deal Official 


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Posted: 02/08/2013 12:14 PM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 


Good.  I'm feeling pretty good about our pitching.  I'll be feeling even better when some youngsters make their way up.
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Posted: 02/08/2013 12:24 PM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 



SteelRun wrote: Good.  I'm feeling pretty good about our pitching.  I'll be feeling even better when some youngsters make their way up.

Yep - Burnett, Rodriguez, McDonald, Liriano and Karstens is the best staff the Pirates have had since 1992.  There is a shot to win every night. 

I really like McPherson, but some time at AAA will probably do him good.  Or - It's possible we don't see Liriano until May, so you go with 4 starters when the schedule permits, then work McPherson in as the 5th.
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Posted: 02/08/2013 1:34 PM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 



Sangue wrote:
SteelRun wrote: Good.  I'm feeling pretty good about our pitching.  I'll be feeling even better when some youngsters make their way up.

Yep - Burnett, Rodriguez, McDonald, Liriano and Karstens is the best staff the Pirates have had since 1992.  There is a shot to win every night. 

I really like McPherson, but some time at AAA will probably do him good.  Or - It's possible we don't see Liriano until May, so you go with 4 starters when the schedule permits, then work McPherson in as the 5th.

I think McPherson starts right out of the gate.  I really like Karstens (always have), but we are going to need him to stay healthy all year.  I have him in the long reliever/spot starter from the get-go.  Plus, McPherson has the upside of a very good #3 starter, not saying he will reach that this season, but if he does he could be one of the better pitchers in our rotation.
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Posted: 02/08/2013 3:08 PM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 


Love Jeff Karstens, but his inability to stay healthy means he is a better fit as a swingman-long reliever-spot starter.  For that reason I would be 100% in favor of starting the season with either Wilson, Locke, or McPherson as the fifth starter.  I still say Wilson has the most potential of the three, far and away.  But he also has the most trouble with wildness.  Right now, McPherson would have to have a leg up, I would think---except I think I read somewhere that he has two options remaining while Locke has one. 

 

 

In any event it's great to see some depth and competition.  The first two spots are, obviously, guaranteed.  Burnett and Wandy will lead the rotation.  The third starter is, presumably, James McDonald, but I think he might be on a short leash.  Nothing about him would surprise me in the least in 2013.  I think he could be anything from an All-Star to a DFA and all points in between.  The last two spots would figure to be Sanchez-Liriano in the four spot and one of the kids as the fifth starter. 


But that's coming out of spring training.  I fully expect the rotation, at least the last two spots, to look very different by the time we get to the All Star break.  Unless Gerrit Cole gets hurt, he will certainly be promoted at some point in 2013, and he won't be going back down unless he totally flops.  Charlie Morton is also due back, and if he is physically sound and if his 2011 season was not a fluke, it will be hard to keep him out of the rotation.  If all goes well, we will surely see a trade, perhaps a big one, in the second half of the season.

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Posted: 02/08/2013 4:41 PM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 



williamjpellas wrote:

Love Jeff Karstens, but his inability to stay healthy means he is a better fit as a swingman-long reliever-spot starter.  For that reason I would be 100% in favor of starting the season with either Wilson, Locke, or McPherson as the fifth starter.  I still say Wilson has the most potential of the three, far and away.  But he also has the most trouble with wildness.  Right now, McPherson would have to have a leg up, I would think---except I think I read somewhere that he has two options remaining while Locke has one. 

 

 

In any event it's great to see some depth and competition.  The first two spots are, obviously, guaranteed.  Burnett and Wandy will lead the rotation.  The third starter is, presumably, James McDonald, but I think he might be on a short leash.  Nothing about him would surprise me in the least in 2013.  I think he could be anything from an All-Star to a DFA and all points in between.  The last two spots would figure to be Sanchez-Liriano in the four spot and one of the kids as the fifth starter. 


But that's coming out of spring training.  I fully expect the rotation, at least the last two spots, to look very different by the time we get to the All Star break.  Unless Gerrit Cole gets hurt, he will certainly be promoted at some point in 2013, and he won't be going back down unless he totally flops.  Charlie Morton is also due back, and if he is physically sound and if his 2011 season was not a fluke, it will be hard to keep him out of the rotation.  If all goes well, we will surely see a trade, perhaps a big one, in the second half of the season.


Agree with just about every single word of this lol.

I too think we will see a pretty big trade involving at least one of the starting pitchers to make room for Cole.  Obviously if multiple of the 8/9 we have readily available struggle they will have to hold onto all of them.  But, lets hope everyone pitches up to their capabilities, including Cole when he comes up, and we are able to move one or two of them in a deal that brings back something of need.
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Posted: 02/09/2013 5:07 AM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 


Agree with just about every single word of this lol.


Careful, cferrel.  It could be that the Old School and the New School are finding common grou....naahh.  wink
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Posted: 02/09/2013 6:34 AM

Re: Liriano Deal Official 


Liriano new deal.  That right arm must be hanging by a thread...

http://www.piratesprospects.co...fb_source=pubv1
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Posted: 02/09/2013 10:09 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 


Can't blame the Pirates on not doing their due diligence on this one. This was just a very odd situation.
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Posted: 02/09/2013 12:32 PM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



katoy2j wrote: Can't blame the Pirates on not doing their due diligence on this one. This was just a very odd situation.
Calling the player not showing up for a physical due diligence might be a stretch.

Something is so wrong Liriano got reduced to 50% of the guaranteed money Charlie Morton received.  Based on that, it would seem we can count Liriano out for the start of the season and probably a few months on top of that.
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Posted: 02/09/2013 8:42 PM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 


I think McP and Locke start the year at AAA and Wilson starts in the Pen. I see Oliver as the #5/long reliever along with Karstens.
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Posted: 02/10/2013 11:55 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



vinnybravo wrote: I think McP and Locke start the year at AAA and Wilson starts in the Pen. I see Oliver as the #5/long reliever along with Karstens.

Oliver is almost guaranteed to either be in the AAA rotation, but there is an outside shot at him being the 2nd lefty in the pen.  There is about a 1% chance of Oliver being in the rotation ahead of Locke and McPherson (especially McPherson).  I think the battle is between Locke and McPherson with McPherson ultimately winning, and either Locke or Karstens filling in for Liriano until he is ready.  Wilson has a shot at the pen, but I think he will be joining Oliver in the AAA rotation for the start of the year.
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Posted: 02/10/2013 7:43 PM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote: I think McP and Locke start the year at AAA and Wilson starts in the Pen. I see Oliver as the #5/long reliever along with Karstens.

Oliver is almost guaranteed to either be in the AAA rotation, but there is an outside shot at him being the 2nd lefty in the pen.  There is about a 1% chance of Oliver being in the rotation ahead of Locke and McPherson (especially McPherson).  I think the battle is between Locke and McPherson with McPherson ultimately winning, and either Locke or Karstens filling in for Liriano until he is ready.  Wilson has a shot at the pen, but I think he will be joining Oliver in the AAA rotation for the start of the year.
I agree that Oliver should be nowhere near the rotation, but like I have said I have a gut feeling he will be.

I think to start the season Karstens will be the 4th starter and Oiliver will be the 5th. I think Morton will get a slot when he gets back as well as Lirano when healthy. I think the will keep McP and Locke in AAA to start the season and will stay there until someone gets hurt or traded.
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Posted: 02/10/2013 8:04 PM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



vinnybravo wrote:
cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote: I think McP and Locke start the year at AAA and Wilson starts in the Pen. I see Oliver as the #5/long reliever along with Karstens.

Oliver is almost guaranteed to either be in the AAA rotation, but there is an outside shot at him being the 2nd lefty in the pen.  There is about a 1% chance of Oliver being in the rotation ahead of Locke and McPherson (especially McPherson).  I think the battle is between Locke and McPherson with McPherson ultimately winning, and either Locke or Karstens filling in for Liriano until he is ready.  Wilson has a shot at the pen, but I think he will be joining Oliver in the AAA rotation for the start of the year.
I agree that Oliver should be nowhere near the rotation, but like I have said I have a gut feeling he will be.

I think to start the season Karstens will be the 4th starter and Oiliver will be the 5th. I think Morton will get a slot when he gets back as well as Lirano when healthy. I think the will keep McP and Locke in AAA to start the season and will stay there until someone gets hurt or traded.

Agree that Locke could start in AAA, but McPherson is almost a lock to start in the Majors in some capacity, and that is why I think he is all but a lock for the rotation bc they won't want to hamper his development as a starter.
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Posted: 02/11/2013 6:52 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:
cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote: I think McP and Locke start the year at AAA and Wilson starts in the Pen. I see Oliver as the #5/long reliever along with Karstens.

Oliver is almost guaranteed to either be in the AAA rotation, but there is an outside shot at him being the 2nd lefty in the pen.  There is about a 1% chance of Oliver being in the rotation ahead of Locke and McPherson (especially McPherson).  I think the battle is between Locke and McPherson with McPherson ultimately winning, and either Locke or Karstens filling in for Liriano until he is ready.  Wilson has a shot at the pen, but I think he will be joining Oliver in the AAA rotation for the start of the year.
I agree that Oliver should be nowhere near the rotation, but like I have said I have a gut feeling he will be.

I think to start the season Karstens will be the 4th starter and Oiliver will be the 5th. I think Morton will get a slot when he gets back as well as Lirano when healthy. I think the will keep McP and Locke in AAA to start the season and will stay there until someone gets hurt or traded.

Agree that Locke could start in AAA, but McPherson is almost a lock to start in the Majors in some capacity, and that is why I think he is all but a lock for the rotation bc they won't want to hamper his development as a starter.
Kyle McP only has 18.1 in AAA. By sending him back to AAA you will not hamper his development. If you start him in the ML and he struggles then you have to send him down to AAA and you may hurt his confidence. You need to start him in AAA and make sure that he is ready for the ML. That is why I dont see him starting the season with the team.
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Posted: 02/11/2013 6:57 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



vinnybravo wrote:

Kyle McP only has 18.1 in AAA. By sending him back to AAA you will not hamper his development. If you start him in the ML and he struggles then you have to send him down to AAA and you may hurt his confidence. You need to start him in AAA and make sure that he is ready for the ML. That is why I dont see him starting the season with the team.


And in comparison, Locke has nothing left to prove at AAA.  Sending him there accomplishes nothing.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 02/11/2013 7:17 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



gr1111 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:

Kyle McP only has 18.1 in AAA. By sending him back to AAA you will not hamper his development. If you start him in the ML and he struggles then you have to send him down to AAA and you may hurt his confidence. You need to start him in AAA and make sure that he is ready for the ML. That is why I dont see him starting the season with the team.


And in comparison, Locke has nothing left to prove at AAA.  Sending him there accomplishes nothing.
It depends if you want to win or lose.  McPherson will win games, Locke will lose them.  If the Pirates would have had the right players on their roster at all times last year and would have used them appropriately, they probably would have been 5-7 games over .500.  I know people will say .500 is not the goal - nor has it been for the last 20 years.  We may not pass .500 until we at least make it one of the goals.
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Posted: 02/11/2013 7:27 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



vinnybravo wrote:
cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:
cferrel3 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote: I think McP and Locke start the year at AAA and Wilson starts in the Pen. I see Oliver as the #5/long reliever along with Karstens.

Oliver is almost guaranteed to either be in the AAA rotation, but there is an outside shot at him being the 2nd lefty in the pen.  There is about a 1% chance of Oliver being in the rotation ahead of Locke and McPherson (especially McPherson).  I think the battle is between Locke and McPherson with McPherson ultimately winning, and either Locke or Karstens filling in for Liriano until he is ready.  Wilson has a shot at the pen, but I think he will be joining Oliver in the AAA rotation for the start of the year.
I agree that Oliver should be nowhere near the rotation, but like I have said I have a gut feeling he will be.

I think to start the season Karstens will be the 4th starter and Oiliver will be the 5th. I think Morton will get a slot when he gets back as well as Lirano when healthy. I think the will keep McP and Locke in AAA to start the season and will stay there until someone gets hurt or traded.

Agree that Locke could start in AAA, but McPherson is almost a lock to start in the Majors in some capacity, and that is why I think he is all but a lock for the rotation bc they won't want to hamper his development as a starter.
Kyle McP only has 18.1 in AAA. By sending him back to AAA you will not hamper his development. If you start him in the ML and he struggles then you have to send him down to AAA and you may hurt his confidence. You need to start him in AAA and make sure that he is ready for the ML. That is why I dont see him starting the season with the team.

I did not say sending him to AAA hampers his development, putting him in the bullpen hampers his development.  I just think at the end of the day he will be too talented to send back down to AAA.  The only guy I could see in the rotation ahead of him if Locke, but definitely not Oliver.  Karstens could fill in for Liriano until he's ready.  I still think McPherson starts in the rotation and does a good job.  Locke is extra starter for injury/bullpen arm, as is Karstens, Oliver spends the entire season in AAA starting unless we have some injuries to the bullpen.
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Posted: 02/11/2013 7:30 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 



Sangue wrote:
gr1111 wrote:
vinnybravo wrote:

Kyle McP only has 18.1 in AAA. By sending him back to AAA you will not hamper his development. If you start him in the ML and he struggles then you have to send him down to AAA and you may hurt his confidence. You need to start him in AAA and make sure that he is ready for the ML. That is why I dont see him starting the season with the team.


And in comparison, Locke has nothing left to prove at AAA.  Sending him there accomplishes nothing.
It depends if you want to win or lose.  McPherson will win games, Locke will lose them.  If the Pirates would have had the right players on their roster at all times last year and would have used them appropriately, they probably would have been 5-7 games over .500.  I know people will say .500 is not the goal - nor has it been for the last 20 years.  We may not pass .500 until we at least make it one of the goals.


If Locke can't win at the major league level, then he has to go.  My point was more that it is "fish or cut bait" time for Locke -- sending him back to AAA accomplishes nothing.  He's been there and done that, and he's about as good as he's going to get from that location.

I don't know if we would have won more games last year or not, but the management of the roster with a sincle-minded focus on service time and payroll has to stop.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 02/11/2013 8:53 AM

RE: Liriano Deal Official 


The thing is we really dont know if McP is ready for the Majors. He had 3 starts, one good, one so-so, and one bad. He has not pitched enough at the AAA or ML level to really know. So do you throw him into the fire to start the season? Or do you send him to AAA to make sure that he is ready? The Pirates have enough options for the #5 spot that they dont have to rush McP. I would be really suprised if he made the team out of sping unless there are just a ton of injurys.

 

 

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