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2013 Payroll

Posted: 01/14/2013 7:21 PM

2013 Payroll 


In this article it shows the Pirates payroll for 2013 at 55 million, 3rd lowest in baseball and 8 million less than last year. I am guessing it does not use the Liriano contract or the Karstens contract either.



http://sports.yahoo.com/news/o...-224840102.html

Last edited 01/15/2013 6:38 AM by vinnybravo

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Posted: 01/14/2013 8:29 PM

RE: 2013 Payroll 


I can't get the link to work so I'm not sure but I have projected payroll at 60 million before the Karstens and Liriano contracts are factored in. It's not concrete because it's factoring in arbitration estimates and those can move a bit either way
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Posted: 01/15/2013 6:40 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 


Updated the link. It does not use the Liriano or Karstens contact. It does use arbitration estmates as well. So now it looks like we are at 57 million. Even if they did sign Liriano they still would not have increased payroll.
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Posted: 01/15/2013 6:45 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 


Just sad.  We are so close to being competitive but refuse to try and spend the money to get over the hump.  Maybe one day...
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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  • kdog341
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Posted: 01/15/2013 6:51 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 


so who would you guys have signed? We upgraded our biggest need by signing the best FA c on hte market. We tried to get a top 10 FA pitcher but he got hurt, it is not like they are not trying.



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Posted: 01/15/2013 7:13 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 



kdog341 wrote: so who would you guys have signed? We upgraded our biggest need by signing the best FA c on hte market. We tried to get a top 10 FA pitcher but he got hurt, it is not like they are not trying.
We're heading into the year with Barmes.  Nuff said.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 8:05 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 



GhostOfPBG wrote:
kdog341 wrote: so who would you guys have signed? We upgraded our biggest need by signing the best FA c on hte market. We tried to get a top 10 FA pitcher but he got hurt, it is not like they are not trying.
We're heading into the year with Barmes.  Nuff said.
But who was out there to sign instead of him?  That would have been willing to sign in Pittsburgh? 

Saying they should spend more money is one thing.  When there isn't a true upgrade out there, it doesn't make sense.  Starting pitching is much more of a concern to me than SS.  Barmes plays very good defense, and we need that with our pitching staff.

I just don't remember seeing a SS out there in free agency this year that was a worthy upgrade.  Would've been spending just to spend to me.
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Posted: 01/15/2013 8:52 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 



GhostOfPBG wrote:
kdog341 wrote: so who would you guys have signed? We upgraded our biggest need by signing the best FA c on hte market. We tried to get a top 10 FA pitcher but he got hurt, it is not like they are not trying.
We're heading into the year with Barmes.  Nuff said.
So what shortstop would of been an improvement that we could of signed?
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Posted: 01/15/2013 9:25 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 


Stephen Drew was available.  Reyes was traded for.  JJ Hardy could probably be had.  Profar is another young one that could possibly be had.

Fact is, Barmes was literally the worst offensive player in all of baseball last year.  Considering we play in the NL, we essentially have 2 automatic outs now.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 9:44 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 


The Giants managed to win a World Series with a pretty poor hitting defensive shortstop. I don't see it as any kind of major issue.

Drew is coming off a major injury and did not play well and ranked worse than Barmes. So paying 10 million dollars foe the hope he would bounce back was not a very good gamble.

All the rest of the guys are unrealistic options. Reyes because his salary is massive. 18.4 million AAV the rest of the contract and the rest of the guys were not available. Profar wasn't going to be traded for Justin Upton straight up. The only player we have better than Justin Upton is Andrew McCutchen.

The other option was to trade Gerritt Cole for DiDi Gregorious

Other than Yunel Escobar who had major baggage around him and was a guy I would of targeted no realistic shortstop upgrades existed for the Pirates
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Posted: 01/15/2013 10:28 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 



katoy2j wrote: The Giants managed to win a World Series with a pretty poor hitting defensive shortstop. I don't see it as any kind of major issue.

Drew is coming off a major injury and did not play well and ranked worse than Barmes. So paying 10 million dollars foe the hope he would bounce back was not a very good gamble.

All the rest of the guys are unrealistic options. Reyes because his salary is massive. 18.4 million AAV the rest of the contract and the rest of the guys were not available. Profar wasn't going to be traded for Justin Upton straight up. The only player we have better than Justin Upton is Andrew McCutchen.

The other option was to trade Gerritt Cole for DiDi Gregorious

Other than Yunel Escobar who had major baggage around him and was a guy I would of targeted no realistic shortstop upgrades existed for the Pirates
When you are interested in apples to apples comparisons, let me know.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 10:37 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 


Looks like next year's free agent class of Shortstops is Drew, Asdrubal Cabrera, Yuniel Escobar, Furcal, Jeter and Peralta.

I hope Barmes can play til he's 40....
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 10:59 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 


I'm sorry how is it not an apples to apples comparison?

Brandon Crawford hit .248 with a .304 OBP and a .349 slugging percentage

Clint Barmes hit .229 with a .272 OBP and a .321 slugging percentage

Considering that Barmes struggled for the first two months of the year and was better the rest of the time I certainly don't see any reason why Barmes can't reach levels that Crawford did on a World Series winning team.

You implied that the Pirates couldn't win with two automatic outs. I gave you an exact position replacement with a defense first pedigree which is about as close to Barmes as you can get. On the team that won the World Series. As I said Barmes isn't the problem. Barmes provides positive value.

While I disagree with a lot of people on their opinions of players most notably those that are upset with Tabata and Snider. At least those players haven't really provided positive value to back up their arguments. It's a small sample size with them so I think they have upside but until Tabata and Snider actually perform I can't completely dismiss the fact that they could be right even if I don't agree with them. You on the other hand have disdain for Barmes which is illogical considering Barmes has been a solid productive player for the majority of his career. The fact that you think Barmes is one of the worst hitters in all of baseball isn't really a big deal. The reality is that most shortstops rank in the worst hitters in all of baseball. It's by far the weakest hitting position with the possible exception of catcher but that has more to do with the fact that backups get so much playing time.

What you're failing to realize though that Barmes being a bad hitter really has minimal effect. The fact he had a sub .600 OPS last year isn't a big deal because the OPS of shortstops is low to begin with. If Barmes was a first baseman it would be a huge problem however he's a shortstop. Even a small improvement in 2013 puts him in line with middle of the pack offensive shortstops all while completely ignoring defense. The right field position is a far bigger problem when you consider the fact that the offensive bar is much higher.

You don't evaluate shortstops on their ability as hitters against all other position players. You evaluate them as hitters against other shortstops. The reality is the Barmes compared to other shortstops isn't far behind. His defense far outweighs any handicap if you gives you on offense.

You mention Stephen Drew but from an all around perspective he is a downgrade and makes the team worse. Increasing the team offense with a marginal offensive upgrade at the expense of a major defensive downgrade at the most important position defensively is a horrible strategy.
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Posted: 01/15/2013 11:01 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 



GhostOfPBG wrote: Looks like next year's free agent class of Shortstops is Drew, Asdrubal Cabrera, Yuniel Escobar, Furcal, Jeter and Peralta.

I hope Barmes can play til he's 40....
Cabrera is a free agent after 2014, Escobar and Jeter have team options.
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Posted: 01/15/2013 11:43 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 



katoy2j wrote: I'm sorry how is it not an apples to apples comparison?

Brandon Crawford hit .248 with a .304 OBP and a .349 slugging percentage

Clint Barmes hit .229 with a .272 OBP and a .321 slugging percentage

Considering that Barmes struggled for the first two months of the year and was better the rest of the time I certainly don't see any reason why Barmes can't reach levels that Crawford did on a World Series winning team.

You implied that the Pirates couldn't win with two automatic outs. I gave you an exact position replacement with a defense first pedigree which is about as close to Barmes as you can get. On the team that won the World Series. As I said Barmes isn't the problem. Barmes provides positive value.

While I disagree with a lot of people on their opinions of players most notably those that are upset with Tabata and Snider. At least those players haven't really provided positive value to back up their arguments. It's a small sample size with them so I think they have upside but until Tabata and Snider actually perform I can't completely dismiss the fact that they could be right even if I don't agree with them. You on the other hand have disdain for Barmes which is illogical considering Barmes has been a solid productive player for the majority of his career. The fact that you think Barmes is one of the worst hitters in all of baseball isn't really a big deal. The reality is that most shortstops rank in the worst hitters in all of baseball. It's by far the weakest hitting position with the possible exception of catcher but that has more to do with the fact that backups get so much playing time.

What you're failing to realize though that Barmes being a bad hitter really has minimal effect. The fact he had a sub .600 OPS last year isn't a big deal because the OPS of shortstops is low to begin with. If Barmes was a first baseman it would be a huge problem however he's a shortstop. Even a small improvement in 2013 puts him in line with middle of the pack offensive shortstops all while completely ignoring defense. The right field position is a far bigger problem when you consider the fact that the offensive bar is much higher.

You don't evaluate shortstops on their ability as hitters against all other position players. You evaluate them as hitters against other shortstops. The reality is the Barmes compared to other shortstops isn't far behind. His defense far outweighs any handicap if you gives you on offense.

You mention Stephen Drew but from an all around perspective he is a downgrade and makes the team worse. Increasing the team offense with a marginal offensive upgrade at the expense of a major defensive downgrade at the most important position defensively is a horrible strategy.
The Giants have a defense only shortstop.  They won the world series.  

Therefore if the Pirates have a defense only shortstop, they will win the world series.

We can just ignore Sandoval, Posey and one of the best staffs in all of baseball and just focus on the shortstop position for each team.  

Clearly the Pirates don't need to upgrade.  We are an offensive powerhouse anyways.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 11:56 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 



GhostOfPBG wrote:
katoy2j wrote: I'm sorry how is it not an apples to apples comparison?

Brandon Crawford hit .248 with a .304 OBP and a .349 slugging percentage

Clint Barmes hit .229 with a .272 OBP and a .321 slugging percentage

Considering that Barmes struggled for the first two months of the year and was better the rest of the time I certainly don't see any reason why Barmes can't reach levels that Crawford did on a World Series winning team.

You implied that the Pirates couldn't win with two automatic outs. I gave you an exact position replacement with a defense first pedigree which is about as close to Barmes as you can get. On the team that won the World Series. As I said Barmes isn't the problem. Barmes provides positive value.

While I disagree with a lot of people on their opinions of players most notably those that are upset with Tabata and Snider. At least those players haven't really provided positive value to back up their arguments. It's a small sample size with them so I think they have upside but until Tabata and Snider actually perform I can't completely dismiss the fact that they could be right even if I don't agree with them. You on the other hand have disdain for Barmes which is illogical considering Barmes has been a solid productive player for the majority of his career. The fact that you think Barmes is one of the worst hitters in all of baseball isn't really a big deal. The reality is that most shortstops rank in the worst hitters in all of baseball. It's by far the weakest hitting position with the possible exception of catcher but that has more to do with the fact that backups get so much playing time.

What you're failing to realize though that Barmes being a bad hitter really has minimal effect. The fact he had a sub .600 OPS last year isn't a big deal because the OPS of shortstops is low to begin with. If Barmes was a first baseman it would be a huge problem however he's a shortstop. Even a small improvement in 2013 puts him in line with middle of the pack offensive shortstops all while completely ignoring defense. The right field position is a far bigger problem when you consider the fact that the offensive bar is much higher.

You don't evaluate shortstops on their ability as hitters against all other position players. You evaluate them as hitters against other shortstops. The reality is the Barmes compared to other shortstops isn't far behind. His defense far outweighs any handicap if you gives you on offense.

You mention Stephen Drew but from an all around perspective he is a downgrade and makes the team worse. Increasing the team offense with a marginal offensive upgrade at the expense of a major defensive downgrade at the most important position defensively is a horrible strategy.
The Giants have a defense only shortstop.  They won the world series.  

Therefore if the Pirates have a defense only shortstop, they will win the world series.

We can just ignore Sandoval, Posey and one of the best staffs in all of baseball and just focus on the shortstop position for each team.  

Clearly the Pirates don't need to upgrade.  We are an offensive powerhouse anyways.
You wanted a new SS.  Who would you have gotten that would make up up the gap from Sandoval and Posey?  This is a ridiculous train of thought.  So the issue isn't Barmes, as Katoy plainly states.  The issue is, we don't have Sandoval and Posey.
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Posted: 01/15/2013 11:58 AM

Re: 2013 Payroll 


At the very start of last season I posted that I thought Barmes was garbage.  This board went back and forth about him.  We covered every argument known to man regarding Barmes.

He failed to live up to every single offensive benchmark you set for him, katoy.  Every one.  I even went as far as to say I'd be shocked to see him hit 8 HRs this year and you said you'd gladly take the over.  I guess he tied one where the bar was set exceptionally low.

Yet you still sing his praises.

Maybe it's just me, but when a new signing fails to live up to the expectations that you yourself set for him, I'd say it's a failure.  But that's just me.

So anyways, there's definitely no good free agents next year either.  So then what?  Bring Barmes back?  Play without a SS?  Rely on Mercer?
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 11:59 AM

RE: 2013 Payroll 



BAMSTEELERFAN wrote:
GhostOfPBG wrote:
katoy2j wrote: I'm sorry how is it not an apples to apples comparison?

Brandon Crawford hit .248 with a .304 OBP and a .349 slugging percentage

Clint Barmes hit .229 with a .272 OBP and a .321 slugging percentage

Considering that Barmes struggled for the first two months of the year and was better the rest of the time I certainly don't see any reason why Barmes can't reach levels that Crawford did on a World Series winning team.

You implied that the Pirates couldn't win with two automatic outs. I gave you an exact position replacement with a defense first pedigree which is about as close to Barmes as you can get. On the team that won the World Series. As I said Barmes isn't the problem. Barmes provides positive value.

While I disagree with a lot of people on their opinions of players most notably those that are upset with Tabata and Snider. At least those players haven't really provided positive value to back up their arguments. It's a small sample size with them so I think they have upside but until Tabata and Snider actually perform I can't completely dismiss the fact that they could be right even if I don't agree with them. You on the other hand have disdain for Barmes which is illogical considering Barmes has been a solid productive player for the majority of his career. The fact that you think Barmes is one of the worst hitters in all of baseball isn't really a big deal. The reality is that most shortstops rank in the worst hitters in all of baseball. It's by far the weakest hitting position with the possible exception of catcher but that has more to do with the fact that backups get so much playing time.

What you're failing to realize though that Barmes being a bad hitter really has minimal effect. The fact he had a sub .600 OPS last year isn't a big deal because the OPS of shortstops is low to begin with. If Barmes was a first baseman it would be a huge problem however he's a shortstop. Even a small improvement in 2013 puts him in line with middle of the pack offensive shortstops all while completely ignoring defense. The right field position is a far bigger problem when you consider the fact that the offensive bar is much higher.

You don't evaluate shortstops on their ability as hitters against all other position players. You evaluate them as hitters against other shortstops. The reality is the Barmes compared to other shortstops isn't far behind. His defense far outweighs any handicap if you gives you on offense.

You mention Stephen Drew but from an all around perspective he is a downgrade and makes the team worse. Increasing the team offense with a marginal offensive upgrade at the expense of a major defensive downgrade at the most important position defensively is a horrible strategy.
The Giants have a defense only shortstop.  They won the world series.  

Therefore if the Pirates have a defense only shortstop, they will win the world series.

We can just ignore Sandoval, Posey and one of the best staffs in all of baseball and just focus on the shortstop position for each team.  

Clearly the Pirates don't need to upgrade.  We are an offensive powerhouse anyways.
You wanted a new SS.  Who would you have gotten that would make up up the gap from Sandoval and Posey?  This is a ridiculous train of thought.  So the issue isn't Barmes, as Katoy plainly states.  The issue is, we don't have Sandoval and Posey.
Which shows the ridiculousness of his post.  Thanks for making my point.
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 01/15/2013 12:08 PM

Re: 2013 Payroll 



GhostOfPBG wrote: At the very start of last season I posted that I thought Barmes was garbage.  This board went back and forth about him.  We covered every argument known to man regarding Barmes.

He failed to live up to every single offensive benchmark you set for him, katoy.  Every one.  I even went as far as to say I'd be shocked to see him hit 8 HRs this year and you said you'd gladly take the over.  I guess he tied one where the bar was set exceptionally low.

Yet you still sing his praises.

Maybe it's just me, but when a new signing fails to live up to the expectations that you yourself set for him, I'd say it's a failure.  But that's just me.

So anyways, there's definitely no good free agents next year either.  So then what?  Bring Barmes back?  Play without a SS?  Rely on Mercer?


Sometimes it is just me.  This time it is just you.  biggrin

___________

 

  

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Posted: 01/15/2013 12:11 PM

Re: 2013 Payroll 



gr1111 wrote:
GhostOfPBG wrote: At the very start of last season I posted that I thought Barmes was garbage.  This board went back and forth about him.  We covered every argument known to man regarding Barmes.

He failed to live up to every single offensive benchmark you set for him, katoy.  Every one.  I even went as far as to say I'd be shocked to see him hit 8 HRs this year and you said you'd gladly take the over.  I guess he tied one where the bar was set exceptionally low.

Yet you still sing his praises.

Maybe it's just me, but when a new signing fails to live up to the expectations that you yourself set for him, I'd say it's a failure.  But that's just me.

So anyways, there's definitely no good free agents next year either.  So then what?  Bring Barmes back?  Play without a SS?  Rely on Mercer?


Sometimes it is just me.  This time it is just you.  biggrin
If loving Barmes is right, I wanna be wrong tongue
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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