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Let's Go Bucs!

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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:45 PM

Let's Go Bucs! 


December 23rd and the next meaningful (well kinda) Pittsburgh sports game will be played by the Pirates...

Last edited 12/23/2012 3:45 PM by Sangue

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Posted: 12/23/2012 5:26 PM

Re: Let's Go Bucs! 



The Pitt basketball Panthers look to have a solid and exciting team and I am still hopeful that ass hats Mr Fehr and Mr Bettman can come to some kind of agreement. I had actually forgotten how much I hate Donald Fehr.
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--- Sangue wrote:

December 23rd and the next meaningful (well kinda) Pittsburgh sports game will be played by the Pirates...

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Posted: 12/23/2012 5:47 PM

Re: Let's Go Bucs! 


I must respectfully but emphatically disagree with you, as calling them "ass hats" is far too kind.

___________

 

  

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Posted: 12/24/2012 5:37 AM

Re: Let's Go Bucs! 



gr1111 wrote: I must respectfully but emphatically disagree with you, as calling them "ass hats" is far too kind.

To say nothing of the insanity of the NHL player's union when it chose to hire Fehr in the first place.  But have no fear, hockey goons: Fehr will be even better at destroying your entire industry than he was at destroying baseball.  Fehr is the most loathsome and detestable, pompous and insufferable egomaniac this side of Scot Boras.  Why can't we bring back Celebrity Death Match for a dustup between those two?
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Posted: 12/24/2012 10:03 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


Hiring Fehr was a good move by the NHLPA actually. The players agreed to a salary cap in the last CBA and the owners still want to take more from them this time around in a reduction of already signed contracts. Lets not forget that the players who were already under contract in 2004 gave back 24% of their contracts last time around when they signed the CBA. Fehr's stance is to decertify the union and become the only major North American sport without a CBA. That is a nightmare for the owners because it takes away all their power. You can't have a entry draft and every player who turns 18 is a free agent.

Here is where the owners are in trouble. 80% of the leagues revenue comes from 7 teams. The Canadian teams. The other 23 teams make up 20% of the leagues revenue. Granted the Rangers make a lot and the reason it is so low is because all the losing money is coming from US teams. If the players decertify all that will happen is that teams like Toronto would become the Yankees and buy up every good player. The big risk is that contracts only exist in the CBA so if the players decertify all the contracts become void as well. Which means that every player is a free agent. That would be a nightmare for a team like Pittsburgh who has Sidney Crosby. He would be a free agent and Toronto would have no issue paying him 20 million a season. He's worth more than that to them just from a marketing perspective. Having this type of situation would scare the crap out of owners in smaller market teams with superstars. Tampa Bay would lose Stamkos, the Penguins would lose Crosby, the Islanders Tavares, all the way down the line.

So it was a smart strategy by Fehr. What's going to end up happening is the owners will not want to go that route because it will pretty much kill 15 of the teams in the league as they would lose their star players and would never be able to compete with the Canadian teams that sell out every game. You can't have a salary cap without a CBA as it violates anti-trust laws so that would go out the window and if they tried it would get sniffed out through collusion pretty quickly.

What will happen is the owners will cave because the players stand to gain more by going the route they're taking. The owners won't want to lose a salary cap so they'll settle at a 50/50 split in revenue and pretty much accept the offer that the players presented and hockey will be being played sometime in the middle of January.

See the players have a lot of options here.  While football is the number one sport in the US, it's only popular in the US.  Tom Brady isn't getting a big salary playing in any other country.  Hockey is more popular in pockets of Europe than it is in the US.  The NHL was losing players to Russia especially even when the league wasn't locked out.  Guys like Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin are losing very little money because they make a bunch playing in their home country.  Sidney Crosby can go over to Europe whenever he wants and make a lot of money too.  These guys all have options.  Perhaps they make 6 million instead of 8 million but the owners are the ones losing money as the operating costs to run a franchise are huge.  On a NHL level without travel, equipment, etc.  Just keeping things status quo costs each team 15-20 million a year.  You can't just fire everybody, you still have to pay taxes and all that jazz.

Last edited 12/24/2012 10:10 AM by katoy2j

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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:08 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


What you just described would eliminate hockey in the US period. You might have the Rangers, Blackhawks, Bruins, and Penguins survive but outside of those couple U.S teams the rest would be gone.

Would the players be willing to lose over half of their jobs as well? Because Canada could not support 30 franchises so the players would commit job suicide themselves especially the players at the bottom half of the league. You would go from 30 teams to say 15 teams so the players would be essentially giving up half their jobs.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. The owners and players must both give for them to come to an agreement.

katoy2j wrote: Hiring Fehr was a good move by the NHLPA actually. The players agreed to a salary cap in the last CBA and the owners still want to take more from them this time around in a reduction of already signed contracts. Lets not forget that the players who were already under contract in 2004 gave back 24% of their contracts last time around when they signed the CBA. Fehr's stance is to decertify the union and become the only major North American sport without a CBA. That is a nightmare for the owners because it takes away all their power. You can't have a entry draft and every player who turns 18 is a free agent.

Here is where the owners are in trouble. 80% of the leagues revenue comes from 7 teams. The Canadian teams. The other 23 teams make up 20% of the leagues revenue. Granted the Rangers make a lot and the reason it is so low is because all the losing money is coming from US teams. If the players decertify all that will happen is that teams like Toronto would become the Yankees and buy up every good player. The big risk is that contracts only exist in the CBA so if the players decertify all the contracts become void as well. Which means that every player is a free agent. That would be a nightmare for a team like Pittsburgh who has Sidney Crosby. He would be a free agent and Toronto would have no issue paying him 20 million a season. He's worth more than that to them just from a marketing perspective. Having this type of situation would scare the crap out of owners in smaller market teams with superstars. Tampa Bay would lose Stamkos, the Penguins would lose Crosby, the Islanders Tavares, all the way down the line.

So it was a smart strategy by Fehr. What's going to end up happening is the owners will not want to go that route because it will pretty much kill 15 of the teams in the league as they would lose their star players and would never be able to compete with the Canadian teams that sell out every game. You can't have a salary cap without a CBA as it violates anti-trust laws so that would go out the window and if they tried it would get sniffed out through collusion pretty quickly.

What will happen is the owners will cave because the players stand to gain more by going the route they're taking. The owners won't want to lose a salary cap so they'll settle at a 50/50 split in revenue and pretty much accept the offer that the players presented and hockey will be being played sometime in the middle of January.

See the players have a lot of options here.  While football is the number one sport in the US, it's only popular in the US.  Tom Brady isn't getting a big salary playing in any other country.  Hockey is more popular in pockets of Europe than it is in the US.  The NHL was losing players to Russia especially even when the league wasn't locked out.  Guys like Alex Ovechkin and Evgeni Malkin are losing very little money because they make a bunch playing in their home country.  Sidney Crosby can go over to Europe whenever he wants and make a lot of money too.  These guys all have options.  Perhaps they make 6 million instead of 8 million but the owners are the ones losing money as the operating costs to run a franchise are huge.  On a NHL level without travel, equipment, etc.  Just keeping things status quo costs each team 15-20 million a year.  You can't just fire everybody, you still have to pay taxes and all that jazz.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:26 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


At the end of the day it's always about the people on top. The guys on the bottom are pawns. Always have been and always will be.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:43 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 



True but short sided. Toronto, Montreal, NY and Chicago can play with themselves, but they would crucify any national brand loyalty in good hockey cities like Pittsburgh, Minneapolis, Buffalo, Winnepeg, Ottowa, San Jose, etc... The Penguins would no doubt have left Pittsburgh had it not been for the last labor agreement.

They would also have a huge legal liability on their hands from the other owners. Can you imagine the other 22 unimportant owners and hundreds of unimportant players laying down to the haves by folding their franchises and losing billions of assets and future earnings?

I get Fehr's stance, but I don't have to agree with it from a long term betterment of the league perspective. Baseball revenues are at a peak due to the system, but you have also stated your belief that it is a bubble. HOCKEY would go the same route if they pursued what you are suggesting and would happen a whole heck of a lot faster.

If Fehr and the NHLPA came out hard for increased revenue sharing then I would be in lock step with them, but i don't think Fehr likes that idea and I know the guys in Toronto and NY don't like it. It's 1994 all over again in my opinion and I don't like it one frigging bit. They are pimps and whores and they could care less about the fans. As long as they can increase revenues to hell with what is right and fair to all involved.
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--- katoy2j wrote:

At the end of the day it's always about the people on top. The guys on the bottom are pawns. Always have been and always will be.

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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:54 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


Maybe so, but do you think the Union will get the support from the players knowing half their jobs would be eliminated?

While I agree with what you are saying to a point, the truth is more towards the middle.

Absolutely no way the Players will allow Fehr to decertify to do what you described. They would be committing career suicide for half the players. And while those lower players are the so called "pawns" they are still pawns making some serious coin to the tune of a couple hundred grand a year.

Try telling half of them they will be out of a job because of Fehr's strategy. See how well that goes over. Even the Top players would not support that kind of cut throat activity with their peers.

katoy2j wrote: At the end of the day it's always about the people on top. The guys on the bottom are pawns. Always have been and always will be.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:07 PM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


Lets look at who it really impacts. Like in most sports out of the bottom half of the league, lets say 300 players. Probably half of those guys get recycled anyway each year. So it isn't half the year. There is a new 150 players or so cycling through. NHL roster are just like MLB rosters. Guys like Rick Van Den Hurk, Delwyn Young, Drew Sutton, etc. These guys are all interchangeable. They play for a bit then they move on. If there is a CBA or not these things will happen to these players anyway so nobody cares about them honestly.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:18 PM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


The difference between hockey and baseball is night and day. Baseball probably has 2 or 3 teams that don't belong. Hockey on the other hand has about 10 teams that don't belong. It's also a niche sport and most in the US don't care about it. What runs sports is television and a national tv contract. Hockey will never have that. Americans care about baseball in places without teams. in Iowa I'm sure they watch baseball. I bet most people in Wyoming, New Mexico, Missisippi and Montana watch baseball. I bet most of them have also never watched a hockey game on tv.

The ratings for tv are brutal at a local level. For a Florida Panthers game they get like 40,000 people to watch from the state. That is form a population of 19 million. Probably most of that is even from Canadians who transplanted there to retire. Toronto gets about two million people to watch a game on tv. Out of about 12 million.

The market just isn't there for it in the States. It never will be and they should just pull the plug on at least 4 teams move a couple more to Canada and the league would be much stronger.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:41 PM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


That won't solve the labor issue and the two sports are different, but they are very similar in a number of ways that separate them from basketball and football. Disparity of revenues is the obvious one. Size of the player pool and roster sizes is another. Disparity from top player contracts to bottom, turnover of players, length of initial player rights, regional tv contract structure, minor league feeder systems, etc... The distribution of the pies are very similar, but the pie is much smaller in hockey. The NHL owners were smart to get a cap, but dumb for implementing the floor. It brought some stability and cost predictability for the mid market teams, it made the big market teams even more profitable and it absolutely slaughtered the 8 teams you mentioned.

Fact is that moving teams brings big problems because of the relationship between communities and the teams. This is especially complicated since these communities have invested millions to build these arenas and the surrounding infrastructure. It's not as simple as saying move another team into Quebec and Ontario and 6 other markets.

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--- katoy2j wrote:

The difference between hockey and baseball is night and day. Baseball probably has 2 or 3 teams that don't belong. Hockey on the other hand has about 10 teams that don't belong. It's also a niche sport and most in the US don't care about it. What runs sports is television and a national tv contract. Hockey will never have that. Americans care about baseball in places without teams. in Iowa I'm sure they watch baseball. I bet most people in Wyoming, New Mexico, Missisippi and Montana watch baseball. I bet most of them have also never watched a hockey game on tv.

The ratings for tv are brutal at a local level. For a Florida Panthers game they get like 40,000 people to watch from the state. That is form a population of 19 million. Probably most of that is even from Canadians who transplanted there to retire. Toronto gets about two million people to watch a game on tv. Out of about 12 million.

The market just isn't there for it in the States. It never will be and they should just pull the plug on at least 4 teams move a couple more to Canada and the league would be much stronger.

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Posted: 12/24/2012 1:31 PM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


I agree it's difficult but it has to be done. Having two teams in Florida and three in California is just too much. Move Anahiem and one of the Florida teams to Canada. Fold Phoenix and one other team. That won't make everything perfect but it will take a lot of the useless teams out of the equation. Then you can at least have the rest of the league prop up the rest of the have nots. The problem is you can't prop up one third of the league which is the situation you have now. If they have 200 million in revenue sharing being sent to help teams out it does a lot more when you spread it across 6 teams than it does going across 10.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 2:04 PM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


Those teams are worth about $650 million collectively not to mention whatever lease agreements they have with the cities. Are you suggesting that the remaining owners should cut a check to the 4 guys that own those franchises and shut them down? Maybe they can all start shopping their franchises to Markam Ontario or Quebec City? Get the bidding war going. Maybe KC and / or Hartford will jump into the mix as well. It's the same reasons that contraction was never a real option with MLB.

I have a feeling that this thing is going to the courts just like the MLB situation did in 1994 unless the players cave at the last minute. If Fehr planned to decertify and he really felt he could win he would have done it a month ago. I doubt any court will award damages to the players in terms of lost wages and i don't think they play hockey this year unless the players give in. The owners are in a bind for the reasons stated above and they have enough hard line owners in big markets like Boston that are willng to "die on the hill" for some of these issues.

I also don't think that Fehr or the NHLPA seriously believes that total free agency is in the best interest of the union as a whole. Only 1 guy can own the Maple Leafs and only 20 some guys can play on that team. If 10 teams fold that's 250 less players and only 7-8 teams can realistically be competitive with your scenario. Do you think that Pittsburghers would continue to go to Consol to watch Pirates on Ice? NFW and they certainly would not continue to pay $400 if and when they did.
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--- katoy2j wrote:

I agree it's difficult but it has to be done. Having two teams in Florida and three in California is just too much. Move Anahiem and one of the Florida teams to Canada. Fold Phoenix and one other team. That won't make everything perfect but it will take a lot of the useless teams out of the equation. Then you can at least have the rest of the league prop up the rest of the have nots. The problem is you can't prop up one third of the league which is the situation you have now. If they have 200 million in revenue sharing being sent to help teams out it does a lot more when you spread it across 6 teams than it does going across 10.

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Posted: 12/24/2012 3:28 PM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


They had a simple solution. Sell Phoenix for 750 million and buy out the teams with that money. There would be people willing to pay that much for a Toronto hockey team. It would be the equivalent of the Mets to the Yankees. They will come to an agreement to keep it out of courts but until they contract and relocate some teams the problems will still exist
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:21 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


True, can't argue the bottom half of the league is constantly recycled and has alot of turnover. That still doesn't mean the Union is going to allow half the teams meaning half the jobs to just go away. That is my point. It doesn't matter who fills those bottom half jobs, they will still be filled by members of the union.
katoy2j wrote: Lets look at who it really impacts. Like in most sports out of the bottom half of the league, lets say 300 players. Probably half of those guys get recycled anyway each year. So it isn't half the year. There is a new 150 players or so cycling through. NHL roster are just like MLB rosters. Guys like Rick Van Den Hurk, Delwyn Young, Drew Sutton, etc. These guys are all interchangeable. They play for a bit then they move on. If there is a CBA or not these things will happen to these players anyway so nobody cares about them honestly.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:22 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


Agree with this, but I don't see this being the same thing as what you are saying Fehr was trying to do by dissolving the union.
katoy2j wrote: The difference between hockey and baseball is night and day. Baseball probably has 2 or 3 teams that don't belong. Hockey on the other hand has about 10 teams that don't belong. It's also a niche sport and most in the US don't care about it. What runs sports is television and a national tv contract. Hockey will never have that. Americans care about baseball in places without teams. in Iowa I'm sure they watch baseball. I bet most people in Wyoming, New Mexico, Missisippi and Montana watch baseball. I bet most of them have also never watched a hockey game on tv.

The ratings for tv are brutal at a local level. For a Florida Panthers game they get like 40,000 people to watch from the state. That is form a population of 19 million. Probably most of that is even from Canadians who transplanted there to retire. Toronto gets about two million people to watch a game on tv. Out of about 12 million.

The market just isn't there for it in the States. It never will be and they should just pull the plug on at least 4 teams move a couple more to Canada and the league would be much stronger.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 7:37 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 



katoy2j wrote: The difference between hockey and baseball is night and day. Baseball probably has 2 or 3 teams that don't belong. Hockey on the other hand has about 10 teams that don't belong. It's also a niche sport and most in the US don't care about it. What runs sports is television and a national tv contract. Hockey will never have that. Americans care about baseball in places without teams. in Iowa I'm sure they watch baseball. I bet most people in Wyoming, New Mexico, Missisippi and Montana watch baseball. I bet most of them have also never watched a hockey game on tv.
Agreed.  Hockey is fun to see in person.  Its not much fun to watch on tv.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 9:08 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


They won't get rid of half the teams. However if they get rid of a couple and move a couple then instead of 10 teams sharing 200 million in revenue sharing you have 6 teams sharing 200 million in revenue sharing so that makes a difference.
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Posted: 12/26/2012 10:28 AM

RE: Let's Go Bucs! 


They should move jurisdiction to Canada and relocate all the lower US teams to Canada.  Let the people who like hockey control it.  There are probably more Canadian hockey fans that American hockey fans.
#fringeprospect
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