Posted: 12/22/2012 6:36 PM
Posted: 12/22/2012 7:08 PM
Posted: 12/22/2012 7:23 PM
Last edited 12/22/2012 7:49 PM by vinnybravo
Posted: 12/22/2012 8:05 PM
I think it will be interesting to see who the Pirates 2nd player in the deal is. I'm guessing its one of Jones, Snider, Tabata, Sanchez, or Presley.If its Jones, it would be hard to think of a more unpopular trade in recent Pirate's history.
Posted: 12/22/2012 8:32 PM
Posted: 12/22/2012 8:34 PM
Posted: 12/22/2012 8:37 PM
Posted: 12/23/2012 5:46 AM
katoy2j wrote: Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison.
Posted: 12/23/2012 9:41 AM
Posted: 12/23/2012 10:07 AM
Posted: 12/23/2012 10:08 AM
katoy2j wrote: That would change things considerably if it was Jones.I highly doubt it though as where would the Red Sox play Jones? Gomes, Victorino and Ellsbury are in the OF and Napoli plays first while Ortiz is the DH.
Posted: 12/23/2012 10:23 AM
Posted: 12/24/2012 7:08 AM
katoy2j wrote: You missed the point completely then. He's one of the highest because he's one of the few that have reached the majors. I did that draft class to show that players drafted in 2008 were not yet making the majors because some on the boards were expecting us to have way more players in the majors from the 2008 draft.At the time I did it I think only 21 players in all of baseball from the 2008 draft have put up more than 1.0 WAR in their career. The fact that Harision is one of the first 21 to do it doesn't mean he's good.
Posted: 12/24/2012 9:37 AM
Posted: 12/24/2012 11:45 AM
katoy2j wrote: Harrison is fine as a player but he's just a guy. He can be useful at one position where his bat is capable and his defense is above average and that is second base. We have Neil Walker already at second base which means that Harrison on the roster really isn't helpful. He was an utter disaster when he was used in the outfield because Hurdle loves him. He was even worse at shortstop. His lack of defense is far more damaging then his offense. He's not a utility player. So he has no spot on the roster. I would happily give him away for nothing as opposed to trying to squeeze out value for him. Getting him 250 at bats again next year would be a nightmare.While neither Barmes or Harrison are great hitters as they're about the same the difference is one is an elite defender at the most important position on the field. The other is a good defender at a position where we have an everyday starter in Walker who is a pretty good player. I would never justify keeping Clint Barmes as a primary pinch hitter. He has no value in that as his value is primarily derived from his glove so if he's not defending he's not helping you win. Harrison has way less value since he not only can't hit, he won't help the team unless Neil Walker gets hurt. However even then you have options like D'Arnaud, Holt and Mercer to fall back on.If the team was using Clint Barmes as it's everyday catcher and his defense was brutal there I would complain to and want him gone. He provides an immense amount of value though at shortstop. Bringing in a shortstop who hits .270 and has average defense is a downgrade in the big picture so it doesn't make sense to make that move.As for the comment that I cling to players. Everyone knows here that I am as cold as cold can be. I have no attachment to anyone. I also have no problem getting rid of anyone. Here are the facts. We have no shortstop on the roster that is better than Barmes. With that being said we have no shortstop that should play over Barmes. I'm also not interested in trading a bunch of good players for a marginal upgrade over Barmes. According to ESPN Barmes was worth 1.1 WAR last year. The year before he was worth 2.9 WAR. Lets saw it off in the middle and say he's a 2.0 WAR player in an average year. Elvis Andrus was worth 4.0 WAR in 2011 and 3.4 WAR in 2012. I'll give you the high end of 4.0 WAR so he's worth two more wins than Clint Barmes. What's the cost to acquire Elvis Andrus? The Rangers would not trade him straight up for Justin Upton. At the minimum from the Pirates you're talking about a package of Jameson Taillon and another very good prospect like a Josh Bell. I'm not interested in making that kind of trade to get two extra wins a year for only two seasons as Andrus is a free agent after 2014. The most valuable shortstop in baseball last year was Erik Aybar at 4.0 WAR and Andrus was second at 3.4 WAR. So upgrading at shortstop is going to cost you a lot in terms of acquiring that player but it isn't going to mean a lot in the grand scheme of things (more wins at the major league level) which is why I'm fine with Barmes. He's been great on defense for years when he's played shortstop. Whatever offense he gives you is gravy. His defense is where his value is. I'm sure some people would be thrilled if we had Elvis Andrus last year and won 81 games. The loss would of been Bell and Taillon though. That isn't worth the upgrade. The price of trading for shortstops is outrageous right now. A top 10 prospect was just traded for a shortstop prospect who isn't even one of the top 10 shortstop prospects. What on earth do you think the price would be for an established shortstop? Trevor Bauer was traded for a player who will put up a sub .700 OPS next year. Gerritt Cole is out equivalent of Trevor Bauer. The market is set so you work off of that. As I said I'm not willing to trade for any shortstop at the price of one of our top 5 prospects unless it's Jurickson Profar, Andrelton Simmons or Troy Tulowitzki. Outside of those players I don't see a shortstop that is a good long term bet and would be under control long enough to help us that it would be worth upgrading.If the Indians want to give us Asdrubal Cabrera for Josh Harrison or the Rangers want to give us Elvis Andrus for Alex Presely then sure I would do it. That's not going to happen as those teams aren't stupid so the price is a lot more. With that being the case I'd rather stick with Barmes then pay the cost for an extra win or two. 82 wins isn't my goal and I'd rather finish at 79 wins and save my bullets to get a stronger team down the road. Jameson Taillon has the potential to be a star pitcher so I'm not risking that to hit 82 wins. I'd rather wait for Taillon and win 82 games when he's on the team if those are my options.
Last edited 12/24/2012 11:47 AM by vinnybravo
Posted: 12/24/2012 12:02 PM
Posted: 12/24/2012 1:37 PM
Posted: 12/24/2012 1:41 PM
katoy2j wrote: I've never said Walker was terrible. I said it would make sense to trade him as opposed to giving him a long term contract. He isn't the type of player you build around and he's the type of guy that as you get through the arbitration process becomes more expensive than he is worth.Also you can get value back for Walker. I would of been ok with having Harrison as the starter for a year or two as I think our best long term option at second base is Alen Hanson. I would of traded Walker for an upgrade but now I think it's best to hold onto him for a bit as I don't see any huge holes that can be filled by trading Walker. A lot of those holes were filled at the trade deadline.As for Harrison I have no problem with the guy. Well he doesn't walk at all so that bugs me. The problem is how he is being used. Since Hurdle will be back next year I'm ok with giving Harrison away for nothing because I think he does more harm than good on our current team. That isn't his fault as a player. It's the fault of the person making the lineup card. It's Hurdle that puts Harrison at shortstop. That is the bigger problem.
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