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Jerry Sands

  • Lucci33
  • Member
  • 2550 posts this site

Posted: 12/22/2012 6:36 PM

Jerry Sands 


Figured he needed his own discussion opened up.  Not sure what else we gave up for him (hopefully not Jones) and got along with him, but I like this move more than most posters I've seen.  Granted, it's been in the minors, but Sands has hit 26 or more homers in each of the last three years.  Some will say that's inflated by the PCL, but I think he has real power potential, maybe even similar to Pedro.  Sure, he might fail, but this is pretty fair for what they gave up in Hanrahan.  I think Huntigton is collecting this kind of guy -- Clint Robinson, Travis Snider now Jerry Sands.  Will they all pan out?  Probably not, but as long as one of them does and Jones produces, we'll be solid on the right side of the field, they're weakest point at the moment.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:08 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


I like Sands as well. What I really like about Huntington is that he sees the big picture and that is what I think his strongest attribute is. He doesn't really panic and he seems to make moves with more than just today in mind. Trading for Wandy Rodriguez is a guy that can help the team for a couple of years same with Travis Snider and Gaby Sanchez.

I wouldn't be surprised if acquiring Sands was to let him play 2013 in a bench role with the intention in mind to use Sands and Robinson as a platoon in 2014 for first base. Perhaps if they were serious about using Gaby Sanchez at third base then when you have left handers on the mound you can play both Sanchez and Sands in the lineup. I really like this scenario because it would mean that Josh Harrison couldn't be on the 25 man roster because you need the shortstop in Mercer.

The bench would be

McKenry
Sands
Tabata or Snider
Sanchez
Mercer

Looks pretty good to me. I think I would let Tabata get first crack at starting so you can have the left handed bat of Snider on the bench plus Tabata profiles better as a lead off hitter.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 7:23 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


Here is the main problem with that. You have 4 players, Tabata, Sands, Snyder and maybe Jones that are only Platoon players. You are not going to win with that team.

I remember watching Sands play a bit with LA a year or so ago. I think he is an ok player, a better option than Snyder and Tabata for sure. But is he an every day player? I do not like platoon's. I think if you have a solid team then you can platoon a position, but the Pirates are not good enough to platoon players. Especially at two positions. All you are saying is that the Pirates do not have anyone that is good enough to play the position so you will try and piecemeal a few guys together in the hopes they can be average at best.

EDIT: One Boston News station is reporting Jones in the deal, but not confirmed and I doubt it.

Looking at other Pirates sites and articles this is going to be a very unpopular trade. Especially if Sands is the center piece of the trade. People are mad that the Pirates are trading a proven player for another failed prospect.

Last edited 12/22/2012 7:49 PM by vinnybravo

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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:05 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


I think it will be interesting to see who the Pirates 2nd player in the deal is.  I'm guessing its one of Jones, Snider, Tabata, Sanchez, or Presley.

If its Jones, it would be hard to think of a more unpopular trade in recent Pirate's history.

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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:32 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


That would change things considerably if it was Jones.

I highly doubt it though as where would the Red Sox play Jones? Gomes, Victorino and Ellsbury are in the OF and Napoli plays first while Ortiz is the DH.

I would have to think it's a marginal minor leaguer to help out Boston since the name hasn't leaked out yet.
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  • Lucci33
  • Member
  • 2550 posts this site

Posted: 12/22/2012 8:34 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


I'm guessing Presley or Tabata, which could turn into a nice pickup for them if they rebound.  I can't imagine it's Jones (they wouldn't deal him for AJ last year), but if it is I agree -- this will be a hugely unpopular move.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:37 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison.
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Posted: 12/23/2012 5:46 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 



katoy2j wrote: Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison.
Isn't he one of the best players in his entire draft class in terms of WAR?  You sure are funny about when you decide to apply metrics to a certain player in order to strengthen your arguments.  tongue
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 12/23/2012 9:41 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 


You missed the point completely then. He's one of the highest because he's one of the few that have reached the majors. I did that draft class to show that players drafted in 2008 were not yet making the majors because some on the boards were expecting us to have way more players in the majors from the 2008 draft.

At the time I did it I think only 21 players in all of baseball from the 2008 draft have put up more than 1.0 WAR in their career. The fact that Harision is one of the first 21 to do it doesn't mean he's good.
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Posted: 12/23/2012 10:07 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 



katoy2j wrote: Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison. Please be Josh Harrison.

Agreed.
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Posted: 12/23/2012 10:08 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 



katoy2j wrote: That would change things considerably if it was Jones.

I highly doubt it though as where would the Red Sox play Jones? Gomes, Victorino and Ellsbury are in the OF and Napoli plays first while Ortiz is the DH.

Thanks - that is comforting to know...
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Posted: 12/23/2012 10:23 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 



Napoli is not on the Red Sox yet. Failed his physical due to a hip issue. That signing is not set in stone.
---------------------------------------------
--- Sangue wrote:


katoy2j wrote: That would change things considerably if it was Jones.

I highly doubt it though as where would the Red Sox play Jones? Gomes, Victorino and Ellsbury are in the OF and Napoli plays first while Ortiz is the DH.

Thanks - that is comforting to know...

---------------------------------------------
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Posted: 12/24/2012 7:08 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 



katoy2j wrote: You missed the point completely then. He's one of the highest because he's one of the few that have reached the majors. I did that draft class to show that players drafted in 2008 were not yet making the majors because some on the boards were expecting us to have way more players in the majors from the 2008 draft.

At the time I did it I think only 21 players in all of baseball from the 2008 draft have put up more than 1.0 WAR in their career. The fact that Harision is one of the first 21 to do it doesn't mean he's good.
I just find it fascinating that the guy has played a total of 169 games (essentially 1 full season) and he has a career WAR of 1.0, and in his rookie year (69 games) was a 1.1 DWAR player.  Yet at 25, you have already decided that he is worthless, yet you cling to the Barmes bandwagon for dear life.  But whatever, they are your stats, sort 'em how you want to....
"I originally said he would get fired in mid-May after a poor start, but honestly, he might not make it to May at this rate." A 'professional' opinion of Manager of the Year Clint Hurdle 4/8/13
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Posted: 12/24/2012 9:37 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 


Harrison is fine as a player but he's just a guy. He can be useful at one position where his bat is capable and his defense is above average and that is second base. We have Neil Walker already at second base which means that Harrison on the roster really isn't helpful. He was an utter disaster when he was used in the outfield because Hurdle loves him. He was even worse at shortstop. His lack of defense is far more damaging then his offense. He's not a utility player. So he has no spot on the roster. I would happily give him away for nothing as opposed to trying to squeeze out value for him. Getting him 250 at bats again next year would be a nightmare.

While neither Barmes or Harrison are great hitters as they're about the same the difference is one is an elite defender at the most important position on the field. The other is a good defender at a position where we have an everyday starter in Walker who is a pretty good player. I would never justify keeping Clint Barmes as a primary pinch hitter. He has no value in that as his value is primarily derived from his glove so if he's not defending he's not helping you win. Harrison has way less value since he not only can't hit, he won't help the team unless Neil Walker gets hurt. However even then you have options like D'Arnaud, Holt and Mercer to fall back on.

If the team was using Clint Barmes as it's everyday catcher and his defense was brutal there I would complain to and want him gone. He provides an immense amount of value though at shortstop. Bringing in a shortstop who hits .270 and has average defense is a downgrade in the big picture so it doesn't make sense to make that move.

As for the comment that I cling to players. Everyone knows here that I am as cold as cold can be. I have no attachment to anyone. I also have no problem getting rid of anyone. Here are the facts. We have no shortstop on the roster that is better than Barmes. With that being said we have no shortstop that should play over Barmes. I'm also not interested in trading a bunch of good players for a marginal upgrade over Barmes. According to ESPN Barmes was worth 1.1 WAR last year. The year before he was worth 2.9 WAR. Lets saw it off in the middle and say he's a 2.0 WAR player in an average year. Elvis Andrus was worth 4.0 WAR in 2011 and 3.4 WAR in 2012. I'll give you the high end of 4.0 WAR so he's worth two more wins than Clint Barmes. What's the cost to acquire Elvis Andrus? The Rangers would not trade him straight up for Justin Upton. At the minimum from the Pirates you're talking about a package of Jameson Taillon and another very good prospect like a Josh Bell. I'm not interested in making that kind of trade to get two extra wins a year for only two seasons as Andrus is a free agent after 2014. The most valuable shortstop in baseball last year was Erik Aybar at 4.0 WAR and Andrus was second at 3.4 WAR. So upgrading at shortstop is going to cost you a lot in terms of acquiring that player but it isn't going to mean a lot in the grand scheme of things (more wins at the major league level) which is why I'm fine with Barmes. He's been great on defense for years when he's played shortstop. Whatever offense he gives you is gravy. His defense is where his value is. I'm sure some people would be thrilled if we had Elvis Andrus last year and won 81 games. The loss would of been Bell and Taillon though. That isn't worth the upgrade. The price of trading for shortstops is outrageous right now. A top 10 prospect was just traded for a shortstop prospect who isn't even one of the top 10 shortstop prospects. What on earth do you think the price would be for an established shortstop? Trevor Bauer was traded for a player who will put up a sub .700 OPS next year. Gerritt Cole is out equivalent of Trevor Bauer. The market is set so you work off of that. As I said I'm not willing to trade for any shortstop at the price of one of our top 5 prospects unless it's Jurickson Profar, Andrelton Simmons or Troy Tulowitzki. Outside of those players I don't see a shortstop that is a good long term bet and would be under control long enough to help us that it would be worth upgrading.

If the Indians want to give us Asdrubal Cabrera for Josh Harrison or the Rangers want to give us Elvis Andrus for Alex Presely then sure I would do it. That's not going to happen as those teams aren't stupid so the price is a lot more. With that being the case I'd rather stick with Barmes then pay the cost for an extra win or two. 82 wins isn't my goal and I'd rather finish at 79 wins and save my bullets to get a stronger team down the road. Jameson Taillon has the potential to be a star pitcher so I'm not risking that to hit 82 wins. I'd rather wait for Taillon and win 82 games when he's on the team if those are my options.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:45 AM

RE: Jerry Sands 



katoy2j wrote: Harrison is fine as a player but he's just a guy. He can be useful at one position where his bat is capable and his defense is above average and that is second base. We have Neil Walker already at second base which means that Harrison on the roster really isn't helpful. He was an utter disaster when he was used in the outfield because Hurdle loves him. He was even worse at shortstop. His lack of defense is far more damaging then his offense. He's not a utility player. So he has no spot on the roster. I would happily give him away for nothing as opposed to trying to squeeze out value for him. Getting him 250 at bats again next year would be a nightmare.

While neither Barmes or Harrison are great hitters as they're about the same the difference is one is an elite defender at the most important position on the field. The other is a good defender at a position where we have an everyday starter in Walker who is a pretty good player. I would never justify keeping Clint Barmes as a primary pinch hitter. He has no value in that as his value is primarily derived from his glove so if he's not defending he's not helping you win. Harrison has way less value since he not only can't hit, he won't help the team unless Neil Walker gets hurt. However even then you have options like D'Arnaud, Holt and Mercer to fall back on.

If the team was using Clint Barmes as it's everyday catcher and his defense was brutal there I would complain to and want him gone. He provides an immense amount of value though at shortstop. Bringing in a shortstop who hits .270 and has average defense is a downgrade in the big picture so it doesn't make sense to make that move.

As for the comment that I cling to players. Everyone knows here that I am as cold as cold can be. I have no attachment to anyone. I also have no problem getting rid of anyone. Here are the facts. We have no shortstop on the roster that is better than Barmes. With that being said we have no shortstop that should play over Barmes. I'm also not interested in trading a bunch of good players for a marginal upgrade over Barmes. According to ESPN Barmes was worth 1.1 WAR last year. The year before he was worth 2.9 WAR. Lets saw it off in the middle and say he's a 2.0 WAR player in an average year. Elvis Andrus was worth 4.0 WAR in 2011 and 3.4 WAR in 2012. I'll give you the high end of 4.0 WAR so he's worth two more wins than Clint Barmes. What's the cost to acquire Elvis Andrus? The Rangers would not trade him straight up for Justin Upton. At the minimum from the Pirates you're talking about a package of Jameson Taillon and another very good prospect like a Josh Bell. I'm not interested in making that kind of trade to get two extra wins a year for only two seasons as Andrus is a free agent after 2014. The most valuable shortstop in baseball last year was Erik Aybar at 4.0 WAR and Andrus was second at 3.4 WAR. So upgrading at shortstop is going to cost you a lot in terms of acquiring that player but it isn't going to mean a lot in the grand scheme of things (more wins at the major league level) which is why I'm fine with Barmes. He's been great on defense for years when he's played shortstop. Whatever offense he gives you is gravy. His defense is where his value is. I'm sure some people would be thrilled if we had Elvis Andrus last year and won 81 games. The loss would of been Bell and Taillon though. That isn't worth the upgrade. The price of trading for shortstops is outrageous right now. A top 10 prospect was just traded for a shortstop prospect who isn't even one of the top 10 shortstop prospects. What on earth do you think the price would be for an established shortstop? Trevor Bauer was traded for a player who will put up a sub .700 OPS next year. Gerritt Cole is out equivalent of Trevor Bauer. The market is set so you work off of that. As I said I'm not willing to trade for any shortstop at the price of one of our top 5 prospects unless it's Jurickson Profar, Andrelton Simmons or Troy Tulowitzki. Outside of those players I don't see a shortstop that is a good long term bet and would be under control long enough to help us that it would be worth upgrading.

If the Indians want to give us Asdrubal Cabrera for Josh Harrison or the Rangers want to give us Elvis Andrus for Alex Presely then sure I would do it. That's not going to happen as those teams aren't stupid so the price is a lot more. With that being the case I'd rather stick with Barmes then pay the cost for an extra win or two. 82 wins isn't my goal and I'd rather finish at 79 wins and save my bullets to get a stronger team down the road. Jameson Taillon has the potential to be a star pitcher so I'm not risking that to hit 82 wins. I'd rather wait for Taillon and win 82 games when he's on the team if those are my options.
What I find funny is that as of July you thought the world of Harrison. You said he was the one guy that would get us the most back in a trade. That he was starting material in MLB. Now he stinks, why is that. Also you say Walker is a pretty good player, yet just a few months ago you ranted about how terrible Walker was and the Pirates needed to get rid of him. So why the big change.

And WAR is replacement vs a minor league/bench player. So to say Barmes is 2.0 better than a guy that is not good enough to start is not really saying anything. Unless you buy in to WAR hook line and sinker.

And here is all you need to know about WAR.:

There is no clearly established formula for WAR. Sites that provide the statistic, such as Baseball Prospectus, Fangraphs, and Baseball Reference, all calculate it differently; however, all of these sites calculate the value of WAR using these principles, and each site publicly acknowledges their methods for calculating their individual WAR values.


So there is not formula for WAR, just some guys throwing around stats until they think it makes sense.

Last edited 12/24/2012 11:47 AM by vinnybravo

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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:02 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


I've never said Walker was terrible. I said it would make sense to trade him as opposed to giving him a long term contract. He isn't the type of player you build around and he's the type of guy that as you get through the arbitration process becomes more expensive than he is worth.

Also you can get value back for Walker. I would of been ok with having Harrison as the starter for a year or two as I think our best long term option at second base is Alen Hanson. I would of traded Walker for an upgrade but now I think it's best to hold onto him for a bit as I don't see any huge holes that can be filled by trading Walker. A lot of those holes were filled at the trade deadline.

As for Harrison I have no problem with the guy. Well he doesn't walk at all so that bugs me. The problem is how he is being used. Since Hurdle will be back next year I'm ok with giving Harrison away for nothing because I think he does more harm than good on our current team. That isn't his fault as a player. It's the fault of the person making the lineup card. It's Hurdle that puts Harrison at shortstop. That is the bigger problem.
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Posted: 12/24/2012 1:37 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 


I agree with you about WAR. And dWAR is even worse, as there is considerable subjectivity involved.


---------------------------------------------
--- vinnybravo wrote:


katoy2j wrote: Harrison is fine as a player but he's just a guy. He can be useful at one position where his bat is capable and his defense is above average and that is second base. We have Neil Walker already at second base which means that Harrison on the roster really isn't helpful. He was an utter disaster when he was used in the outfield because Hurdle loves him. He was even worse at shortstop. His lack of defense is far more damaging then his offense. He's not a utility player. So he has no spot on the roster. I would happily give him away for nothing as opposed to trying to squeeze out value for him. Getting him 250 at bats again next year would be a nightmare.

While neither Barmes or Harrison are great hitters as they're about the same the difference is one is an elite defender at the most important position on the field. The other is a good defender at a position where we have an everyday starter in Walker who is a pretty good player. I would never justify keeping Clint Barmes as a primary pinch hitter. He has no value in that as his value is primarily derived from his glove so if he's not defending he's not helping you win. Harrison has way less value since he not only can't hit, he won't help the team unless Neil Walker gets hurt. However even then you have options like D'Arnaud, Holt and Mercer to fall back on.

If the team was using Clint Barmes as it's everyday catcher and his defense was brutal there I would complain to and want him gone. He provides an immense amount of value though at shortstop. Bringing in a shortstop who hits .270 and has average defense is a downgrade in the big picture so it doesn't make sense to make that move.

As for the comment that I cling to players. Everyone knows here that I am as cold as cold can be. I have no attachment to anyone. I also have no problem getting rid of anyone. Here are the facts. We have no shortstop on the roster that is better than Barmes. With that being said we have no shortstop that should play over Barmes. I'm also not interested in trading a bunch of good players for a marginal upgrade over Barmes. According to ESPN Barmes was worth 1.1 WAR last year. The year before he was worth 2.9 WAR. Lets saw it off in the middle and say he's a 2.0 WAR player in an average year. Elvis Andrus was worth 4.0 WAR in 2011 and 3.4 WAR in 2012. I'll give you the high end of 4.0 WAR so he's worth two more wins than Clint Barmes. What's the cost to acquire Elvis Andrus? The Rangers would not trade him straight up for Justin Upton. At the minimum from the Pirates you're talking about a package of Jameson Taillon and another very good prospect like a Josh Bell. I'm not interested in making that kind of trade to get two extra wins a year for only two seasons as Andrus is a free agent after 2014. The most valuable shortstop in baseball last year was Erik Aybar at 4.0 WAR and Andrus was second at 3.4 WAR. So upgrading at shortstop is going to cost you a lot in terms of acquiring that player but it isn't going to mean a lot in the grand scheme of things (more wins at the major league level) which is why I'm fine with Barmes. He's been great on defense for years when he's played shortstop. Whatever offense he gives you is gravy. His defense is where his value is. I'm sure some people would be thrilled if we had Elvis Andrus last year and won 81 games. The loss would of been Bell and Taillon though. That isn't worth the upgrade. The price of trading for shortstops is outrageous right now. A top 10 prospect was just traded for a shortstop prospect who isn't even one of the top 10 shortstop prospects. What on earth do you think the price would be for an established shortstop? Trevor Bauer was traded for a player who will put up a sub .700 OPS next year. Gerritt Cole is out equivalent of Trevor Bauer. The market is set so you work off of that. As I said I'm not willing to trade for any shortstop at the price of one of our top 5 prospects unless it's Jurickson Profar, Andrelton Simmons or Troy Tulowitzki. Outside of those players I don't see a shortstop that is a good long term bet and would be under control long enough to help us that it would be worth upgrading.

If the Indians want to give us Asdrubal Cabrera for Josh Harrison or the Rangers want to give us Elvis Andrus for Alex Presely then sure I would do it. That's not going to happen as those teams aren't stupid so the price is a lot more. With that being the case I'd rather stick with Barmes then pay the cost for an extra win or two. 82 wins isn't my goal and I'd rather finish at 79 wins and save my bullets to get a stronger team down the road. Jameson Taillon has the potential to be a star pitcher so I'm not risking that to hit 82 wins. I'd rather wait for Taillon and win 82 games when he's on the team if those are my options.
What I find funny is that as of July you thought the world of Harrison. You said he was the one guy that would get us the most back in a trade. That he was starting material in MLB. Now he stinks, why is that. Also you say Walker is a pretty good player, yet just a few months ago you ranted about how terrible Walker was and the Pirates needed to get rid of him. So why the big change.

And WAR is replacement vs a minor league/bench player. So to say Barmes is 2.0 better than a guy that is not good enough to start is not really saying anything. Unless you buy in to WAR hook line and sinker.

And here is all you need to know about WAR.:

There is no clearly established formula for WAR. Sites that provide the statistic, such as Baseball Prospectus, Fangraphs, and Baseball Reference, all calculate it differently; however, all of these sites calculate the value of WAR using these principles, and each site publicly acknowledges their methods for calculating their individual WAR values.


So there is not formula for WAR, just some guys throwing around stats until they think it makes sense.

---------------------------------------------

___________

 

  

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Posted: 12/24/2012 1:41 PM

RE: Jerry Sands 



katoy2j wrote: I've never said Walker was terrible. I said it would make sense to trade him as opposed to giving him a long term contract. He isn't the type of player you build around and he's the type of guy that as you get through the arbitration process becomes more expensive than he is worth.

Also you can get value back for Walker. I would of been ok with having Harrison as the starter for a year or two as I think our best long term option at second base is Alen Hanson. I would of traded Walker for an upgrade but now I think it's best to hold onto him for a bit as I don't see any huge holes that can be filled by trading Walker. A lot of those holes were filled at the trade deadline.

As for Harrison I have no problem with the guy. Well he doesn't walk at all so that bugs me. The problem is how he is being used. Since Hurdle will be back next year I'm ok with giving Harrison away for nothing because I think he does more harm than good on our current team. That isn't his fault as a player. It's the fault of the person making the lineup card. It's Hurdle that puts Harrison at shortstop. That is the bigger problem.
No you said Walker was bad and the Bucs could do allot better. You went on and on about how his stats lie. Lets not change that. You have been wrong about Tabata, Snyder, Harrison, Walker, Alverez, Barmes and others. I know you you hate closers and feel they have no value, I just have the opposite opinion.
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