BAMSTEELERFAN wrote: I think Lavarnwy would be a great pick up.

1. Get rid of Barmes and Tabata.  By any means.  Just do it.
2. Obtain an above average starting-caliber catcher.
3. Obtain another good bat at 1B or OF.  Maybe by trading Hanrahan?
4. Obtain a SS to replace Barmes.
5. Obtain 2 above average SP's.

vinnybravo wrote: I dont want a catcher that will platoon. We already have a platoon in RF and 1B!! How about be get a catcher who is good enough to play everyday!!

katoy2j wrote: Who is going to replace Barmes and be an upgrade? Have you seen the free agent market for shortstops? Teams that have them aren't trading them. Texas won't trade one of their shortstops for Justin Upton. Do you know how insane the price would be for the Pirates to try and acquire one of them.

katoy2j wrote: Not at all. He provided surplus value. If you're really good on offense but horrible on defense or really good on defense but horrible on offense each has a measurement.

The team had a winning record when Barmes played. Is he a franchise player? Nope. He does however already have a contract for next year and is capable of being better on offense than he was this year. He was the best defensive shortstop in the NL this past season and that does have value.

You don't replace starting pitchers because they're not good hitters. Pitching is more important in that equation. From the shortstop position defense is more important than offense.

Mercer is a possible option at shortstop and I was all for him getting more playing time last season. The problem is he didn't so under no circumstances can you really just hand Mercer the job for opening day. It was a wasted opportunity not seeing what we have in him. I hope in 2013 we get a chance to see more of Mercer as it would be a waste for him to get the Ciriaco treatment.

Barmes will get the first couple of months of the season as a starter and then I'm assuming the position will be evaluated at that point. Nobody within the Pirates seem to think that Barmes is a problem as they understand the importance of defense as a run saved is worth much more than a run scored. The only people that have any interest in changing shortstops are posters on message boards. I can say with near certainty to invest your time about thoughts about an upgrade at the starting shortstop position into something else as it's unlikely to happen.

I would say that Barmes is a good fielder, not great. His biggest asset is his ability to get the ball out of his glove and on to 1B so quickly. This makes up for his poorly played balls and his lack of speed breaking on ground balls. If he was such a great defensive SS then there would be a demand for him at SS. The fact is there is not and was not. Teams were looking at him more at 2B than at SS. Teams were only offering him a one year deal while the Pirates offered him two. History has shown that defensive SS are sought after in MLB, yet Barmes was not highly sought after last off season. If he is the best SS in MLB, defensively, then why would not more team have wanted him?

katoy2j wrote: I'll say Barmes was the best and most people that don't have a vesting interest in baseball and look at base their opinions on baseball from a pure perspective of analyzing data which puts everyone on a level playing field would say Barmes was the best in the NL last season.

The most biased opinions are those that are in the game that do the decision making. The BBWA will deny or delay someone entry into the HOF based on the fact that the player was difficult to deal with. Coaches will give out gold glove votes based on offense, past reputation and likability of the player.

Metrics are far more reliable than these methods as they keep neutrality on the table. Tulowitzki was a very good fielder but had an awful year on defense and this was rated poorly. He isn't a bad fielder just had a bad season. Barmes has been one of the better shortstops defensively since he has been at the position. Dave Cameron, Tom Tango and Bill James gain nothing by saying Clint Barmes is the best NL shortstop on defense. Barmes has derived extremely high defensive value on 3 different teams.

As for chances that is a horrible way to evaluate defense as that only calculates balls a player got to. A guy who has slightly more chances meaning that he handled a few more balls but is rated lower in UZR likely had many more balls hit in his direction that got through is not more valuable than a player who has less balls hit in his direction because of the pitching staff but makes a higher percentage of the plays of the total balls hit in his rating zone.

Barmes was the best full season shortstop by far. Of all the guys that played a full season nobody was close to him. The link isn't working for some reason but here are the UZR ranks of shortstops with a positive UZR only.

Clint Barmes - 14.4 UZR
Andrelton Simmons - 10.4 UZR
Brandon Crawford - 8.7 UZR
Zack Cozart - 7.7 UZR
Ian Desmond - 4.8 UZR
Jimmy Rollins - 4.4 UZR
John McDonald - 2.9 UZR
Paul Janish - 2.3 UZR
Ruben Tejada - 1.2 UZR

Worst player was Dee Gordon at - (-13.0) UZR

Simmons will be the best defensive shortstop next season most likely. If anyone has watched him play he is amazing to watch. He's a young kid so who knows if he will have the longevity of a career but I have never seen a better shortstop then him. Which yes includes Ozzie Smith.

katoy2j wrote: Not at all. He provided surplus value. If you're really good on offense but horrible on defense or really good on defense but horrible on offense each has a measurement.

The team had a winning record when Barmes played. Is he a franchise player? Nope. He does however already have a contract for next year and is capable of being better on offense than he was this year. He was the best defensive shortstop in the NL this past season and that does have value.

You don't replace starting pitchers because they're not good hitters. Pitching is more important in that equation. From the shortstop position defense is more important than offense.

Mercer is a possible option at shortstop and I was all for him getting more playing time last season. The problem is he didn't so under no circumstances can you really just hand Mercer the job for opening day. It was a wasted opportunity not seeing what we have in him. I hope in 2013 we get a chance to see more of Mercer as it would be a waste for him to get the Ciriaco treatment.

Barmes will get the first couple of months of the season as a starter and then I'm assuming the position will be evaluated at that point. Nobody within the Pirates seem to think that Barmes is a problem as they understand the importance of defense as a run saved is worth much more than a run scored. The only people that have any interest in changing shortstops are posters on message boards. I can say with near certainty to invest your time about thoughts about an upgrade at the starting shortstop position into something else as it's unlikely to happen.

SteelRun wrote: I'll just agree to disagree.  I do not believe that Barmes is an MLB caliber player.  

If the goal was to obtain a SS last offseason who was good at defense but has absolutely NO offensive talent, NH succeeded.  However, he could have obtained a young SS who is a horrific hitter (like Barmes) much cheaper.  No reason to spend 10.5 million for two years of Barmes.  This contract is a total waste of money.

katoy2j wrote: Not at all. He provided surplus value. If you're really good on offense but horrible on defense or really good on defense but horrible on offense each has a measurement.

The team had a winning record when Barmes played. Is he a franchise player? Nope. He does however already have a contract for next year and is capable of being better on offense than he was this year. He was the best defensive shortstop in the NL this past season and that does have value.

You don't replace starting pitchers because they're not good hitters. Pitching is more important in that equation. From the shortstop position defense is more important than offense.

Mercer is a possible option at shortstop and I was all for him getting more playing time last season. The problem is he didn't so under no circumstances can you really just hand Mercer the job for opening day. It was a wasted opportunity not seeing what we have in him. I hope in 2013 we get a chance to see more of Mercer as it would be a waste for him to get the Ciriaco treatment.

Barmes will get the first couple of months of the season as a starter and then I'm assuming the position will be evaluated at that point. Nobody within the Pirates seem to think that Barmes is a problem as they understand the importance of defense as a run saved is worth much more than a run scored. The only people that have any interest in changing shortstops are posters on message boards. I can say with near certainty to invest your time about thoughts about an upgrade at the starting shortstop position into something else as it's unlikely to happen.