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Israel-Hamas Conflict

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Posted: 11/19/2012 12:03 PM

Israel-Hamas Conflict 


I have a feeling where lines on this are drawn by the panel regulars.  That said, I wanted to throw out this op-ed by someone I am not familiar with and so whose political affiliation I do not know.  To me, he summarizes the one salient point of the issue in the piece's title, Hamas will never achieve a Palestinian state while killing Israeli civilians. 

Furthermore, regional leaders like Morsi and Erdogan who have spoken out forcefully against Israel on this perhaps bc of pressure in their home countries, nevertheless have shown themselves to be complete frauds for I have never once heard any arab leader critical of Israel's retaliation against Hamas ever acknowledge the daily rocket fire from Hamas into southern Israel which has been going on for nearly 12 years.  The truth is that Israel has shown nothing but restraint, but as Obama said, "no country on earth would tolerate missiles raining down on its citizens from outside its borders."

And as Henderson points out in the article, the missiles that reached to Tel Aviv this past week were if nothing else, vindication of Israel's blockade shipping into Gaza.  The reason for the blockade is to prevent Hamas from obtaining longer range missiles and we see that they have had some success smuggling them thru nonetheless.  When Palestinians boys and men want to die fighting and are motivated by becoming martyrs "with the honor it would bring" in the community rather than to live for their future and their families in peace side by side with their neighbors, what hope is there for the region?
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 11/21/2012 8:44 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 


A lot of young Palestinian aren't fighting for "honor", they're fighting for money. They're families are well paid for them to give up their lives, thousands of dollars in some cases, in a poor country. Palestinians should really come around to understanding that it's in their financial best interest to play ball with the US and Israel. Economically speaking, it's in their best interest.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 9:41 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 


2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.

Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:01 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.

Last edited 11/21/2012 10:06 AM by DocK16

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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:07 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking the winners and losers of the AS:  do you support democracy or don't you?

Democracy in what sense.


Plato's forms of government and their corruptions

Monarchy/Dictatorship
Aristocracy/Oligarchy
Democracy/Mob rule

Not Quite ready to say that Egypt is Mob Rule.  But when it comes to Israel, Morsi certainly plays to the crowd.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.

Last edited 11/21/2012 10:08 AM by VAMetsFan

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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:19 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.






not sure on the 1st question.

as to the 2nd, as someone who considers themself pro-israel, yes, i absolutely still support the arab spring.  in the long-term, i think people who have self-determination will be better than oppression under dictatorships.  and while mubarak did preserve egypt's peace treaties with israel, it's not like there was no fighting when he ruled.  he didn't prevent the first intifada of the late 80s-early 90s or the the second intifada in the early 00's, or the gaza rocket attacks over all these years, or the gaza war of 08-09.  it's not like this latest spasm of violence is something we've never seen before.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:31 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:37 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



hobson54 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.






not sure on the 1st question.

as to the 2nd, as someone who considers themself pro-israel, yes, i absolutely still support the arab spring.  in the long-term, i think people who have self-determination will be better than oppression under dictatorships.  and while mubarak did preserve egypt's peace treaties with israel, it's not like there was no fighting when he ruled.  he didn't prevent the first intifada of the late 80s-early 90s or the the second intifada in the early 00's, or the gaza rocket attacks over all these years, or the gaza war of 08-09.  it's not like this latest spasm of violence is something we've never seen before.
I have strong suspicions those rockets were smuggled across the egyptian border, as they alway have.  The Difference is, Morsi doesn't pretend to try and stop it.  Also, hamas is basically a branch office of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.

Last edited 11/21/2012 10:38 AM by VAMetsFan

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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:40 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:49 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



VAMetsFan wrote:
hobson54 wrote:
as to the 2nd, as someone who considers themself pro-israel, yes, i absolutely still support the arab spring.  in the long-term, i think people who have self-determination will be better than oppression under dictatorships.  and while mubarak did preserve egypt's peace treaties with israel, it's not like there was no fighting when he ruled.  he didn't prevent the first intifada of the late 80s-early 90s or the the second intifada in the early 00's, or the gaza rocket attacks over all these years, or the gaza war of 08-09.  it's not like this latest spasm of violence is something we've never seen before.
I have strong suspicions those rockets were smuggled across the egyptian border, as they alway have.  The Difference is, Morsi doesn't pretend to try and stop it.  Also, hamas is basically a branch office of the Muslim Brotherhood.


understood.  but my point was that hamas was firing rockets into israel well before the muslim brotherhood won the election.  there was plenty of fighting and palestinian rocket attacks when mubarak was in power.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:50 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.

I think they are mature enough to know what the Muslim Brotherhood is.  Also, the brotherhood will only bring war with Israel.  If you think that will help their economic problems you are out your mind.  The IDF is capable of completely destroying every industry in Egypt.  not figuratively, but literally, with bombs. 

Let me ask this.  Has Hamas ever delivered better economics for palestinians?  Launching rockets is just a distraction from their inability to deliver better economic conditions.  Morsi plays the same game.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 10:56 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.
it's so hard for open-minded humanists to accept that some people aren't capable of self-determination.  that is not to say that they will never be capable, but some societies have been repressed in primitive conditions for so many centuries that they need to be educated about what is acceptable behavior as global citizens before they can be let loose on the world.

Living in poor economic conditions in no legitimate excuse for resorting to terrorist behavior and let's not devolve the conversation into "one man's terrorism is another's freedom fighter" sort of cliched rhetoric.
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:00 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.

I think they are mature enough to know what the Muslim Brotherhood is.  Also, the brotherhood will only bring war with Israel.  If you think that will help their economic problems you are out your mind.  The IDF is capable of completely destroying every industry in Egypt.  not figuratively, but literally, with bombs. 

Let me ask this.  Has Hamas ever delivered better economics for palestinians?  Launching rockets is just a distraction from their inability to deliver better economic conditions.  Morsi plays the same game.

I'm perfectly aware of the Muslim Brotherhood, who they are, and what they're about.  I also support suppressed people standing up for themselves in the face of tyranny.  If the MB prove tyrannical, which is likely, the people of Egypt will only stand for it for so long.  

Democracy isn't neat or perfect and it doesn't happen over night.  But this notion that autocratic regimes that "keep the peace" are preferable to nascent democracies with democratically elected governments that don't support US interests is just silly and really goes against everything America should stand for.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:00 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



hobson54 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
hobson54 wrote:
as to the 2nd, as someone who considers themself pro-israel, yes, i absolutely still support the arab spring.  in the long-term, i think people who have self-determination will be better than oppression under dictatorships.  and while mubarak did preserve egypt's peace treaties with israel, it's not like there was no fighting when he ruled.  he didn't prevent the first intifada of the late 80s-early 90s or the the second intifada in the early 00's, or the gaza rocket attacks over all these years, or the gaza war of 08-09.  it's not like this latest spasm of violence is something we've never seen before.
I have strong suspicions those rockets were smuggled across the egyptian border, as they alway have.  The Difference is, Morsi doesn't pretend to try and stop it.  Also, hamas is basically a branch office of the Muslim Brotherhood.


understood.  but my point was that hamas was firing rockets into israel well before the muslim brotherhood won the election.  there was plenty of fighting and palestinian rocket attacks when mubarak was in power.

yes. but having an ally in Egypt greatly helps Hamas.  But let me all you this since we all care about conditions in the muslim world.  What happens to all those jobs muslims used to have when the IDF blows up factories and other production faciliites.  What happens to all the palestinians who work in israel after israel tightens security even more?  Will they be out of jobs too?  Hamas and The Brotherhood don't give a damn about those people.  They do seem to be able to play to the crowd really well though.
Mets trade away reigning CY Young award winner.
Still have the best pitcher in Baseball.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:03 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DuffyDyer wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.
it's so hard for open-minded humanists to accept that some people aren't capable of self-determination.  that is not to say that they will never be capable, but some societies have been repressed in primitive conditions for so many centuries that they need to be educated about what is acceptable behavior as global citizens before they can be let loose on the world.

Living in poor economic conditions in no legitimate excuse for resorting to terrorist behavior and let's not devolve the conversation into "one man's terrorism is another's freedom fighter" sort of cliched rhetoric.
Duffy, we disagree so often, but I absolutely love your commentaries in these matters.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:05 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



skopko wrote:
DuffyDyer wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.
it's so hard for open-minded humanists to accept that some people aren't capable of self-determination.  that is not to say that they will never be capable, but some societies have been repressed in primitive conditions for so many centuries that they need to be educated about what is acceptable behavior as global citizens before they can be let loose on the world.

Living in poor economic conditions in no legitimate excuse for resorting to terrorist behavior and let's not devolve the conversation into "one man's terrorism is another's freedom fighter" sort of cliched rhetoric.
Duffy, we disagree so often, but I absolutely love your commentaries in these matters.
don't think for a minute that doesn't scare me.... tongue
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:05 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DocK16 wrote:
I'm perfectly aware of the Muslim Brotherhood, who they are, and what they're about.  I also support suppressed people standing up for themselves in the face of tyranny.  If the MB prove tyrannical, which is likely, the people of Egypt will only stand for it for so long.  

Democracy isn't neat or perfect and it doesn't happen over night.  But this notion that autocratic regimes that "keep the peace" are preferable to nascent democracies with democratically elected governments that don't support US interests is just silly and really goes against everything America should stand for.


+1000
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:11 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



VAMetsFan wrote:
hobson54 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
hobson54 wrote:
as to the 2nd, as someone who considers themself pro-israel, yes, i absolutely still support the arab spring.  in the long-term, i think people who have self-determination will be better than oppression under dictatorships.  and while mubarak did preserve egypt's peace treaties with israel, it's not like there was no fighting when he ruled.  he didn't prevent the first intifada of the late 80s-early 90s or the the second intifada in the early 00's, or the gaza rocket attacks over all these years, or the gaza war of 08-09.  it's not like this latest spasm of violence is something we've never seen before.
I have strong suspicions those rockets were smuggled across the egyptian border, as they alway have.  The Difference is, Morsi doesn't pretend to try and stop it.  Also, hamas is basically a branch office of the Muslim Brotherhood.


understood.  but my point was that hamas was firing rockets into israel well before the muslim brotherhood won the election.  there was plenty of fighting and palestinian rocket attacks when mubarak was in power.

yes. but having an ally in Egypt greatly helps Hamas.  But let me all you this since we all care about conditions in the muslim world.  What happens to all those jobs muslims used to have when the IDF blows up factories and other production faciliites.  What happens to all the palestinians who work in israel after israel tightens security even more?  Will they be out of jobs too?  Hamas and The Brotherhood don't give a damn about those people.  They do seem to be able to play to the crowd really well though.

VA, you bring up things that I think most Amercians do not consider when talking about the ME; infrastruture, economies, jobs, qulaity of lives of the citizens trying to make a nut in a peaceful manner.

Too many of us get caught up in the war monger, defeat the enemy, eliminate Israel, etc stuff that we forget that the people who are propped up to be in charge seem to so wildly fascinated with that as opposed to moving economies forward, that there is a disconnect when speaking about virtuous things like "self-determination" & what they elect.

They aren't the same.
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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:11 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DuffyDyer wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
VAMetsFan wrote:

2 questions for people more in tuned to palestinian/israeli issues.

Didn't Morsi go to Gaza about 2 weeks ago?  if so, I strongly suspect he is behind some of this.  Just like he tried to to dip his toes into the video controversy.  He likes to sip the tea, but pulls away just before he gets burned.

2nd question, would you still support Arab spring.  Mubarrak after all did keep his word.


Serious question for anyone who thinks the Arab Spring was a negative development and/or the US should've been more involved in picking its winners and losers:  are you pro-democracy or aren't you?

Muburak was a thief and an autocrat.
He may have been a theif and an autocrat, but he did keep his end of a peace treaty.
He didn't actively try to start World War 3, or Armegeddon (which I think the islamist think they are doing) (Read some of the 13th Imam stuff).

I also suspect in the next few years we are going to see why Mubarrak worked so hard to Supress the Muslim Brotherhood. As to the Democracy question I have a few thoughts.
About 2 years ago, I had a conversation with a cheif engineer who was Pakistani ( a supposedly educated man)   every anti semeticconspicacy theory in the book.  It was really quite disturbing.  Even a vocal minority holding these views can be dangerous.  If they get control of an entire country, they can be really dangerous. 


These people aren't ready for democracy if their views include the elimination of jews.  These people aren't ready for democracy if they believe wholesale in every conspiracy theory in the book. They aren't ready for democracy if they believe in majority rule, but say nothing of minority rights. 

A democracy in the middle east will likely morph into something like the french revolution fueled by religous intolerance instead of ideology.

So, if you were an Egyptian citizen, you wouldn't mind the fact that you and most of your friends were unemployed and/or underemployed, with zero hope for the future, while your autocratic leader funnels hundreds of millions of dollars into his own bank account with no regard for your future well-being?

You think you'd give a **** about peace beyond your borders, US self-interests, or semantic arguments pertaining to the word democracy?

I'm pretty sure that eventually you'd find yourself on the streets or on the battlefield, just as Egyptians did and just as our forefathers did during the American Revolution.
it's so hard for open-minded humanists to accept that some people aren't capable of self-determination.  that is not to say that they will never be capable, but some societies have been repressed in primitive conditions for so many centuries that they need to be educated about what is acceptable behavior as global citizens before they can be let loose on the world.

Living in poor economic conditions in no legitimate excuse for resorting to terrorist behavior and let's not devolve the conversation into "one man's terrorism is another's freedom fighter" sort of cliched rhetoric.

It's also difficult for some people to who are deeply invested in a conflict to speak objectively about matters which relate to it.

At what point will Egyptians become "civilized" enough to determine their own destiny?  

They've already experienced the typical Western-influenced, pro-democracy "transition" with Mubarak and to a lesser extent Sadat and Nasser and then especially pre-revolution.  As a nation they have more experience with democracy than pretty much any other country in the region.

Should they remain suppressed for eternity just because their interests conflict with Israel?

I say that as someone who is half-Jewish and very much interested in seeing Israel succeed and prosper in the region.

Last edited 11/21/2012 11:23 AM by DocK16

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Posted: 11/21/2012 11:13 AM

RE: Israel-Hamas Conflict 



DuffyDyer wrote:
skopko wrote:
Duffy, we disagree so often, but I absolutely love your commentaries in these matters.
don't think for a minute that doesn't scare me.... tongue

I don't bring it up too often, and if you feel more comfortable, I'll PM you the next timebiggrin. Seriously, I love your stuff here. wink
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