Thursday is the Hot Stove program in Duffy's. I'm going and maybe I'll cause some trouble, especially if Jeff Wilpon shows up. 

andwoo wrote:

Metforlife wrote:

KABOOOOM wrote:

Walnutz15 wrote: Fred speaks:

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...out-mets-future

22-minute interview as transcribed by ESPN.com. 

Well I for one feel better.

This man is delusional  and will hang on to the bitter end. The way he talks also gives you the feeling that we will be operating like the Pirates from now on. No big FA's, no long term contracts. Welcome back to 1978 everyone.

I didn't get that sense at all. Instead, that the Mets would be more judicious with giving out long-term contracts (considering Beltran was the only one that really worked out, that's not a bad acknowledgment) and be better at creating a pipeline of talent to sustain winning over the long-term. When necessary, the Mets would sign a "big-name" player, and reinforces that by referencing how the Mets brought in Carter.

We havent been so good at creating a pipeline of talent either.   That strategy is a lot harder then it looks.  Our record with the draft is worse then it is with FA.  

In the last 25 years, how many quality 1st rd picks have we made that turned into quality major league players?   Maybe 8 or 9 if you count supplemental pcks.

Starting from 1986..

Guys that made it-- (truthfully, other then Wright and Burnitz, there is a lot of disapointment in these picks, and this is the cream of the crop...Guys like Heilman and Payton played many yrs in the bigs, but they werent very good players)

Jeromy Burnitz
Bobby Jones
Preston Wilson
Jay Payton
Aaron Heilman
David Wright
Scott Kazmir
Mike Pelfrey

Other guys that had some success

Paul Wilson
Terrence Long
Jason Tyner
Lastings Milledge
Phil Humber
Ike Davis

Too soon to write off

Reese Havens
Brandon Nimmo
Mike Fullmer
Matt Harvey

Dumpster

Brad Holt
Nathan Vineyard
Eddie Kunz
Bobby Keppel
Billy Traber
Robert Stratton
Geoff Geotz
Ryan Jaroncyzk
Kirk Presley
Jon Ward
Chris Roberts
Al Shirley
Alan Zinter
Chris Donnels
Lee May
Dave Proctor

If we're going back to not spending in FA, we better get a lot better at drafting.

oct271986 wrote:

andwoo wrote:

Metforlife wrote:

KABOOOOM wrote:

Walnutz15 wrote: Fred speaks:

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...out-mets-future

22-minute interview as transcribed by ESPN.com. 

Well I for one feel better.

This man is delusional  and will hang on to the bitter end. The way he talks also gives you the feeling that we will be operating like the Pirates from now on. No big FA's, no long term contracts. Welcome back to 1978 everyone.

I didn't get that sense at all. Instead, that the Mets would be more judicious with giving out long-term contracts (considering Beltran was the only one that really worked out, that's not a bad acknowledgment) and be better at creating a pipeline of talent to sustain winning over the long-term. When necessary, the Mets would sign a "big-name" player, and reinforces that by referencing how the Mets brought in Carter.

We havent been so good at creating a pipeline of talent either.   That strategy is a lot harder then it looks.  Our record with the draft is worse then it is with FA.  

In the last 25 years, how many quality 1st rd picks have we made that turned into quality major league players?   Maybe 8 or 9 if you count supplemental pcks.

Starting from 1986..

Guys that made it-- (truthfully, other then Wright and Burnitz, there is a lot of disapointment in these picks, and this is the cream of the crop...Guys like Heilman and Payton played many yrs in the bigs, but they werent very good players)

Jeromy Burnitz
Bobby Jones
Preston Wilson
Jay Payton
Aaron Heilman
David Wright
Scott Kazmir
Mike Pelfrey

Other guys that had some success

Paul Wilson
Terrence Long
Jason Tyner
Lastings Milledge
Phil Humber
Ike Davis

Too soon to write off

Reese Havens
Brandon Nimmo
Mike Fullmer
Matt Harvey

Dumpster

Brad Holt
Nathan Vineyard
Eddie Kunz
Bobby Keppel
Billy Traber
Robert Stratton
Geoff Geotz
Ryan Jaroncyzk
Kirk Presley
Jon Ward
Chris Roberts
Al Shirley
Alan Zinter
Chris Donnels
Lee May
Dave Proctor

If we're going back to not spending in FA, we better get a lot better at drafting.

This has been my fear all along. I was a fan of this franchise before they dabbled in FA's and we stunk from 1974- 1983. Our first big FA was George Foster and he was a bust. It's not the FA's it's our selection. And unless we improve our drafting abilities by 100% we are looking at some dismal times.

Our first big FA was George Foster...


The Mets actually traded a couple of players to the Reds for Foster.

It isn't helpful to be so fatalistic.  The Good and bad news is that the Mets (and everyone else too for that matter) are responsible for their decisions.  Thats like someone saying that the man is keeping them down.  It may be true, but it's the mentality of a defeated man, and not helpful if you truly want to change your circumstances.

Yes, we have drafted poorly, and had a whole lot of free agent bust-but that doesn't mean you don't try to get better at evaluating talent(amatuer and free agent).  Honestly, if Sandy is never able to win because of financial circumstances, but dramatically improves talent evaluation, the organization is still better off in long run.

DuffyDyer wrote: Our first big FA was George Foster...


The Mets actually traded a couple of players to the Reds for Foster.

Your right, but he was our first Mega Star that we imported.

oct271986 wrote:

andwoo wrote:

Metforlife wrote:

KABOOOOM wrote:

Walnutz15 wrote: Fred speaks:

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...out-mets-future

22-minute interview as transcribed by ESPN.com. 

Well I for one feel better.

This man is delusional  and will hang on to the bitter end. The way he talks also gives you the feeling that we will be operating like the Pirates from now on. No big FA's, no long term contracts. Welcome back to 1978 everyone.

I didn't get that sense at all. Instead, that the Mets would be more judicious with giving out long-term contracts (considering Beltran was the only one that really worked out, that's not a bad acknowledgment) and be better at creating a pipeline of talent to sustain winning over the long-term. When necessary, the Mets would sign a "big-name" player, and reinforces that by referencing how the Mets brought in Carter.

We havent been so good at creating a pipeline of talent either.   That strategy is a lot harder then it looks.  Our record with the draft is worse then it is with FA.  

In the last 25 years, how many quality 1st rd picks have we made that turned into quality major league players?   Maybe 8 or 9 if you count supplemental pcks.

Starting from 1986..

Guys that made it-- (truthfully, other then Wright and Burnitz, there is a lot of disapointment in these picks, and this is the cream of the crop...Guys like Heilman and Payton played many yrs in the bigs, but they werent very good players)

Jeromy Burnitz
Bobby Jones
Preston Wilson
Jay Payton
Aaron Heilman
David Wright
Scott Kazmir
Mike Pelfrey

Other guys that had some success

Paul Wilson
Terrence Long
Jason Tyner
Lastings Milledge
Phil Humber
Ike Davis

Too soon to write off

Reese Havens
Brandon Nimmo
Mike Fullmer
Matt Harvey

Dumpster

Brad Holt
Nathan Vineyard
Eddie Kunz
Bobby Keppel
Billy Traber
Robert Stratton
Geoff Geotz
Ryan Jaroncyzk
Kirk Presley
Jon Ward
Chris Roberts
Al Shirley
Alan Zinter
Chris Donnels
Lee May
Dave Proctor

If we're going back to not spending in FA, we better get a lot better at drafting.

Agree completely. I really hope that last year was the beginning of better and more sustainable approach to winning consistently (which does include signing big-name FA's when appropriate).

Metforlife wrote:
This has been my fear all along. I was a fan of this franchise before they dabbled in FA's and we stunk from 1974- 1983. Our first big FA was George Foster and he was a bust. It's not the FA's it's our selection. And unless we improve our drafting abilities by 100% we are looking at some dismal times.

Great point. We only turned it around and won the World Series in 86 with a team stacked with big time free agents signed to long term contracts.

This current Mets era has reminded me of the Dolan's and Sandy = Donnie.

If not for Sandy and his team of uber bright former GM's, I trust their judgement so I hope the Wilpons work out the money issues and stay out of Sandy's way,

For my 2012 Mets W-L outlook, I hope they're in a similar place as 2011 when the Giants championship-Linsanity euphoria wears off in May-June. 

The Giant's Super Bowl title was how the Knicks were able to survive the booing/fire D'antoni chants until Lin came along.  The 2012 Mets could use that Giants-Linsanity as a cover if there's a 2011 like slow start.

TNice wrote:

Metforlife wrote:
This has been my fear all along. I was a fan of this franchise before they dabbled in FA's and we stunk from 1974- 1983. Our first big FA was George Foster and he was a bust. It's not the FA's it's our selection. And unless we improve our drafting abilities by 100% we are looking at some dismal times.

Great point. We only turned it around and won the World Series in 86 with a team stacked with big time free agents signed to long term contracts.

They weren't stacked with FA's but they had high salaried veterans that we acquired  through trades to compliment our young players. It's not one or the other, it's a mix of everything done wisely that wins championships. IMO.

Jeff Wilpon had orange T-shirts made with Underdog "U" logo on them for #Mets. Collins talked about embracing role.

Collins:

“I remember in 1993 in Pittsburgh, after we lost [Barry] Bonds and [Doug] Drabek and those guys. Guys came into spring training, and you could just tell there was that [feeling], ‘Hey, we don’t have Barry anymore, we’re not going to be any good.’ And we didn’t play very good. And I don’t want that to happen here. These guys have got to understand, we are in a situation, we are in a market, we have a fan base that expects people to play the game right and play the game well. I have expectations of how this game is played. And I don’t care who is sitting in those seats, it’s got to be played that way.”


David Wright, for his part, seemed lukewarm about an underdog tag on the Mets.

“I don’t really like using the whole underdog thing,” he said. “I don’t like really playing that card. I think it’s just a way to remind everybody in here that the outside expectations aren’t the expectations that we have for ourselves. And I think Terry did a good job of kind of conveying it today, because obviously the expectations from the outside are low, and understandably so.

“But we in here kind of have to rally around that and get it going. I guess, at the end of the day, that is kind of an underdog theme. But we shouldn’t view ourselves as that. We’ll let everybody else view ourselves as that, because I think we kind of know what we’re capable of doing.”


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...shirts-for-mets

oct271986 wrote:

Bear2214 wrote: More of the same "If everything breaks right we can be better then most people think." Starting to get a bit frustrating to hear that over and over again. He kept dodging payroll questions making it seem like it was all Sandy's decision. I don't buy that one bit.. My excitement for the start of the season was taken down a notch, frustrating to read an interview like that.

I regret reading it as well.  He should just keep quiet.  Keep riding helicopters back and forth to basketball games and let someone else do the talking.

I find myself not even wanting to comment on what Fred Wilpon says; as anytime he does - the past few years anyway -- he's shown just how out of touch he is with the fanbase.

I put these things out there for people to decide whether or not they truly want to support him.

Honestly, I don't.  And it has nothing to do with an agenda, etc. -- I think just he's full of (crap).  That he can say whatever he wants in the press - and people will eat it on up, asking for second helpings.

I love the Mets, but won't be giving them an additional dime of my money (unless you'd like to count the TV ratings I'll give SNY).

What Fred did yesterday was piss on each one of our legs, and tell us all it was a passing shower.  He thinks he's a slick talker, but when it comes down to it -- I think that many of us are able to read between the lines (far too many now).

You can tell he's put plenty of practice into what he's come out to say in the media -- and it still sounds like baloney.  He's truly full of it......and spinning like a top in the process.

Walnutz15 wrote:

Jeff Wilpon had orange T-shirts made with Underdog "U" logo on them for #Mets. Collins talked about embracing role.

Collins:

“I remember in 1993 in Pittsburgh, after we lost [Barry] Bonds and [Doug] Drabek and those guys. Guys came into spring training, and you could just tell there was that [feeling], ‘Hey, we don’t have Barry anymore, we’re not going to be any good.’ And we didn’t play very good. And I don’t want that to happen here. These guys have got to understand, we are in a situation, we are in a market, we have a fan base that expects people to play the game right and play the game well. I have expectations of how this game is played. And I don’t care who is sitting in those seats, it’s got to be played that way.”


David Wright, for his part, seemed lukewarm about an underdog tag on the Mets.

“I don’t really like using the whole underdog thing,” he said. “I don’t like really playing that card. I think it’s just a way to remind everybody in here that the outside expectations aren’t the expectations that we have for ourselves. And I think Terry did a good job of kind of conveying it today, because obviously the expectations from the outside are low, and understandably so.

“But we in here kind of have to rally around that and get it going. I guess, at the end of the day, that is kind of an underdog theme. But we shouldn’t view ourselves as that. We’ll let everybody else view ourselves as that, because I think we kind of know what we’re capable of doing.”


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...shirts-for-mets

Jeff Wilpon is a loser. It's pathetic he had those shirts made up.

metjetgal wrote:

Walnutz15 wrote:

Jeff Wilpon had orange T-shirts made with Underdog "U" logo on them for #Mets. Collins talked about embracing role.

Collins:

“I remember in 1993 in Pittsburgh, after we lost [Barry] Bonds and [Doug] Drabek and those guys. Guys came into spring training, and you could just tell there was that [feeling], ‘Hey, we don’t have Barry anymore, we’re not going to be any good.’ And we didn’t play very good. And I don’t want that to happen here. These guys have got to understand, we are in a situation, we are in a market, we have a fan base that expects people to play the game right and play the game well. I have expectations of how this game is played. And I don’t care who is sitting in those seats, it’s got to be played that way.”


David Wright, for his part, seemed lukewarm about an underdog tag on the Mets.

“I don’t really like using the whole underdog thing,” he said. “I don’t like really playing that card. I think it’s just a way to remind everybody in here that the outside expectations aren’t the expectations that we have for ourselves. And I think Terry did a good job of kind of conveying it today, because obviously the expectations from the outside are low, and understandably so.

“But we in here kind of have to rally around that and get it going. I guess, at the end of the day, that is kind of an underdog theme. But we shouldn’t view ourselves as that. We’ll let everybody else view ourselves as that, because I think we kind of know what we’re capable of doing.”


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...shirts-for-mets

Jeff Wilpon is a loser. It's pathetic he had those shirts made up.

I couldn't agree more.  He may as well have had them say "Lovable Losers"....  

I'm surprised those t-shirts didn't instead say, "Dem Bums".  Pretty much anything out a Wilpon's mouth these days reads like something out of "The Onion".

To be fair-- it's not like the Mets brought in Foster at age 28 and he flopped. They went after the 33 year old star who declined [alot]

Here are bb-ref's comps through age 32:
Stargell, Salmon, Klesko, Frank Howard, Dye, Tartabull, Doby, Horton, Tony Perez and Vic Wertz.

Those ten averaged 6.2 rWAR 33 onward and Foster 4.0 rWAR -- so I think it is more, "Don't be surprised when that 33 year old star craps out [suddenly]"...

Walnutz15 wrote:

Jeff Wilpon had orange T-shirts made with Underdog "U" logo on them for #Mets. Collins talked about embracing role.

Collins:

“I remember in 1993 in Pittsburgh, after we lost [Barry] Bonds and [Doug] Drabek and those guys. Guys came into spring training, and you could just tell there was that [feeling], ‘Hey, we don’t have Barry anymore, we’re not going to be any good.’ And we didn’t play very good. And I don’t want that to happen here. These guys have got to understand, we are in a situation, we are in a market, we have a fan base that expects people to play the game right and play the game well. I have expectations of how this game is played. And I don’t care who is sitting in those seats, it’s got to be played that way.”


David Wright, for his part, seemed lukewarm about an underdog tag on the Mets.

“I don’t really like using the whole underdog thing,” he said. “I don’t like really playing that card. I think it’s just a way to remind everybody in here that the outside expectations aren’t the expectations that we have for ourselves. And I think Terry did a good job of kind of conveying it today, because obviously the expectations from the outside are low, and understandably so.

“But we in here kind of have to rally around that and get it going. I guess, at the end of the day, that is kind of an underdog theme. But we shouldn’t view ourselves as that. We’ll let everybody else view ourselves as that, because I think we kind of know what we’re capable of doing.”


http://espn.go.com/blog/new-yo...shirts-for-mets

A- Does Collins know Pitt hasnt had a winning record since Bonds left?  He probably shouldnt bring that situation up as a comp.

B- Wright is so out of here.  I think he will wait around to see if any miracles come down the pike from the minors or from an ownership change but if we end with the 90 loss season many anticipate, he will rebuff any extension offers this winter and play the "I just want test the market card"   Maybe if we are lucky, he can go to NYY to join Reyes in 2014 after the Marlins deal him.    Jeter wil be gone and Arod will be a DH by then.

C- I would like to buy one of those underdog shirts and add a word in front of the U.

oct271986 wrote:

A- Does Collins know Pitt hasnt had a winning record since Bonds left?  He probably shouldnt bring that situation up as a comp.

B- Wright is so out of here.  I think he will wait around to see if any miracles come down the pike from the minors or from an ownership change but if we end with the 90 loss season many anticipate, he will rebuff any extension offers this winter and play the "I just want test the market card"   Maybe if we are lucky, he can go to NYY to join Reyes in 2014 after the Marlins deal him.    Jeter wil be gone and Arod will be a DH by then.

I was going to bring up the very same point, regarding the Pirate tie-in ---- but saw it as more of a situation that Collins knows he needs to avoid.....rather than it being "good" that they're in the same kind of situation.

Let's hope it truly doesn't get like Pittsburgh in any way, shape or form going forward. 

I'm intrigued by the possibility of a "big-bang" start from Wright.  If some good, legit offers come through by the ASB/Trade Deadline - sparked by a resurgence....then all the better.

If not, then you've got him rounding back into form; and figure out some parameters in keeping him around.

C- I would like to buy one of those underdog shirts and add a word in front of the U.


at least I won't be the one to do the photo-shopping in here....    

DuffyDyer wrote:
C- I would like to buy one of those underdog shirts and add a word in front of the U.


at least I won't be the one to do the photo-shopping in here....    

Oh c'mon Duff -- get your mind out of the gutter.