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O/T: Is Derek Jeter Overrated?

Posted: 7/18/2014 10:47 PM

O/T: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


I dunno, guys, if there was ever an overrated HoF player...would it be him?

I pose this question (on this board) for a couple reasons:

  1. I figure a lot of you guys have a New York connection and can probably provide me with a more objective view than I currently have of Jeter.
  2. I really wanna find out if my bias against Jeter is mainly the result of the media blow job (pardon the term, please!) that he normally gets - especially this year.


So yeah, if you guys would please educate me here I would really appreciate it. 'cuz I certainly don't wanna knock Jeter for his very real talent, but I also wanna find out if he was really God's gift to baseball.

Last edited 7/21/2014 9:03 AM by Walnutz15

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Posted: 7/18/2014 11:08 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


Pardon the expression, but we feel about Jeter like we felt about Chipper Jones.
We knew he was good, but we reviled the very ground he walked on.
Yes, he's a good hitter. It hasn't hurt him that he plays in the worst band box in the majors. But as a fielder, he has a negative lifetime dWAR. To put it in less technical terms, he has the range of a manhole cover. Many of those highlight reel jump throws from the hole are out of necessity. A shortstop with more normal range would have been in front of the ball and would not have had to make a difficult play. His "clutch" label is also over rated, His lifetime playoff stats are right in line with his regular season stats. 

But we also don't like him because of the undue adulation he has received. He probably did what other players did off the field but was never caught. Yes, the season long fellatiation (better than the word you used) is unbearable to Mets fans.

Does that help? We feel your pain.

Later
"You spend a good part of your life gripping the baseball, and in the end it turns out it was the other way around all the time." Jim Bouton

Last edited 7/18/2014 11:09 PM by NewMFS62

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Posted: 7/18/2014 11:18 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


I think Jeter's defense is criminally overrated. It's absurd that ARod moved off SS for him. But Jeter's bat is probably underrated, imo, particularly by those of us who hate him a little bit. That whole "being a winner" crap is way overrated, too. He was on a bunch of really good teams at the end of the century. Those teams won because they had really good players. Then in 2001, they stopped winning as much. Was this because they weren't winners or they weren't "true yankees"? No. It's because they were less talented and/or less lucky.
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Posted: 7/18/2014 11:19 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


I'd say if anything, he's been underrated because of the media hype.

"Throw strikes, you dummy" ~ Buck O'Neil
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Posted: 7/19/2014 6:00 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


This guy is flat out one the best.  His baseball instincts, ability to hit in the clutch and nearly impeccable image make him deserving of all the adulation he is receiving.  Being this type of grandiose character in the biggest market in the world, Jeter has been hyped to a point where anyone would be overrated.  I am surprised he is not used in the same context that Chuck Norris is used in those ridiculous "Chuck Norris jokes".  The best are always overrated.

"Ninety percent I'll spend on good times, women and Irish Whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste." - Tug McGraw

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Posted: 7/19/2014 7:31 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


If it's possible, I think he's overrated and underrated at the same time.  Seems to have gotten credit for a lot of nonsense (the clutchness, the highlight reel defensive plays that better SS's would have made routine)........but at the same time, the guy was a consistently solid hitter for a really long time.  You don't get to 45th all time in fWAR by accident.

He's overrated in the sense that he'll get lumped in when people talk about the greatest of all time.....he's not a Michael Jordan or a Tiger Woods....but I also think his detractors under-appreciate the career numbers he compiled.

(BTW Braves fan, I think Chipper Jones is a better player).


17 & 14 = Best Duo In NY Sports

Last edited 7/19/2014 7:32 AM by acesfull86

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Posted: 7/19/2014 7:38 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 



mookie13 wrote: This guy is flat out one the best.  His baseball instincts, ability to hit in the clutch and nearly impeccable image make him deserving of all the adulation he is receiving.  Being this type of grandiose character in the biggest market in the world, Jeter has been hyped to a point where anyone would be overrated.  I am surprised he is not used in the same context that Chuck Norris is used in those ridiculous "Chuck Norris jokes".  The best are always overrated.
His value is hard to quantify. Until 4 or 5 years ago, his range defensively was decent and he caught everything he got to. He has slipped considerably since. He's a lifetime .311 hitter; though as he's reached that once in the last 5 years he is slipping there too as injuries and age have taken their toll. He has become an overrated player as he declines. Prior to that, he was remarkably consistent. He has a career .309 postseason BA, and remember that's against playoff pitchers on the other side. His intangibles are off the board. He's a winner. His teams, though he hasn't always been "the guy", have won 5 world series.He has been the glue on those championship Yankee teams. His (I'm struggling to come up with a word here) "lifestyle" both on and off the court has been a model on how to act, as well as a demonstration to his teammates. Did he sow his oats? Yes, but you never heard about him throwing punches in a bar or being pulled over for speeding with hookers or a gun in the car, like so many of the idiot athletes today.   He carries himself with class and dignity. Also, he has a .321 BA in the World Series. He's a clutch player, though some people on here deny that exists. His intangibles are off the board.  If I sound like his agent well I've been a Jeter hating Met fan for a long time, but give credit where it's due. Combining the stats, his intangibles, his personality, and his style of play, he's the greatest all around player of my lifetime.

Last edited 7/19/2014 8:15 PM by danfran

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Posted: 7/19/2014 8:34 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


"if there was ever an overrated HoF player...would it be him?"

Well, there are some really dubious Hall of Fame choices out there... Lloyd Waner, High Pockets Kelly, Chick Hafey, Tommy McCarthy, etc. Though those are Vet committee selections.

That Jeter is going to get voted in by the BBWAA on the first ballot and he's probably going to get 95%+ of the votes-- well, lets just compare him to that class of Hall of Famer:

Ruth 184 rWAR, 168 fWAR
Mays 156, 150
Cobb 151, 149
Aaron 143, 136
Wagner 131, 138
Henderson 111, 106
Seaver 111, 98
Schmidt 107, 107
Ripken 96, 93
Yastrzemski 96, 95
Carlton 90, 103
Brett 88, 85
Ryan 82, 107
Bench 75, 75
*Jeter 72, 74*
Gwynn 67, 65

Last edited 7/19/2014 8:39 AM by erosen

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Posted: 7/19/2014 9:16 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


I just find it funny that a Braves fan came to a Mets board to start a thread about a Yankee :)

Parts of Jeter's game have definitely been overrated at times over the years, but he deserves credit for compiling great numbers, winning championships, performing well in the postseason, and representing the game well. Some of it was luck with the timing of his career (post strike baseball resurgence) and being drafted by the Yankees at the right time, but he's also obviously talented and knows how to handle himself on and off the field.
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Posted: 7/19/2014 9:29 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


I think with Jeter, he may be the best non-great in baseball history. Does he do anything that really scares you, if you're the opposing team?

His defense has been drastically overrated. Bad range, making the routine look spectacular. I just don't get it.

As for his bat, he has been an outstanding hitter for average throughout his career, but with little pop, in a hitter's park his whole life, and with the best lineup protection money can buy.

The one thing he has done really well for almost his whole career has been hitting for average.

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Posted: 7/19/2014 11:36 AM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


Jeter's best asset is his leadership ability and he always comes through in the clutch! 3400 career hits; definite HOFer. If anything, he is underrated! How many rings?
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Posted: 7/19/2014 12:39 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


I will never forgive him for hitting that lead off home run to open game 4 in 2000.

For some reason, when I think of Jeter, I always think of his quote:

"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." (Mickey Mantle)

Last edited 7/19/2014 12:40 PM by Swoboda4

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Posted: 7/19/2014 1:21 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 



Swoboda4 wrote: I will never forgive him for hitting that lead off home run to open game 4 in 2000.

For some reason, when I think of Jeter, I always think of his quote:

"If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." (Mickey Mantle)
I was a little shocked to see Jeter has 258 career HRS, albeit playing half his games in a bandbox.
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Posted: 7/19/2014 1:37 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 



iluvthemets wrote: Jeter's best asset is his leadership ability and he always comes through in the clutch! 3400 career hits; definite HOFer. If anything, he is underrated! How many rings?
So his best assets are intangible. Aside from his ability to hit for contact, what are his tangibles?

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Posted: 7/19/2014 2:03 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 



SackExchange wrote:
iluvthemets wrote: Jeter's best asset is his leadership ability and he always comes through in the clutch! 3400 career hits; definite HOFer. If anything, he is underrated! How many rings?
So his best assets are intangible. Aside from his ability to hit for contact, what are his tangibles?
Aside from his defense (which I think is massively overrated on the whole), he's at least good at everything. He hit double digit home runs every year for 15 years. That's not amazing, but it makes him not a singles hitter, imo. He's had a good BB% and OBP, low K%, strong baserunning (300+ steals). His career is 20-years long. You could argue that his peak was 13 years of that. Pretty impressive. No huge peaks, but more like a very strong plateau. To be consistently very good to exceptional over that span of time, I have to give the guy credit. His first two and last 5 years haven't been that impressive, and I think he's dragged the Yankees down some by remaining at shortstop.

I don't subscribe to the rings argument, but we know he didn't collapse in clutch spots. I think, like most players, he's overrated by those who love him and underrated by those who hate him. Given the massive love fest going on in the media, I think the overall verdict is that he's overrated. I don't think he's a legendary player. But I do think he's deserving of a certain level of admiration which gets people into the Hall of Fame.
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Posted: 7/19/2014 2:32 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


Derek Jeter is a first ballot HOF whether or not he played for the Yankees.

The question becomes if he didn't play for the Yankees, would he be voted near unanimously like Ripken was?
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Posted: 7/19/2014 3:22 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


"He hit double digit home runs every year for 15 years. That's not amazing, but it makes him not a singles hitter, imo."

.132 career ISO and league average during his career is .159 -- lets make that into an 'OPS+-like' stat and put him at an 83. Is it fair to call that a singles hitter?

Ichiro has the lowest ISO of any active player with 6000+ PA; his 'ISO+' comes in at a 61. So, among active players with long careers, Jeter is fairly close to the midpoint of average power and the closest thing to an actual singles hitter
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Posted: 7/19/2014 3:28 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 



erosen wrote: "He hit double digit home runs every year for 15 years. That's not amazing, but it makes him not a singles hitter, imo."

.132 career ISO and league average during his career is .159 -- lets make that into an 'OPS+-like' stat and put him at an 83. Is it fair to call that a singles hitter?

Ichiro has the lowest ISO of any active player with 6000+ PA; his 'ISO+' comes in at a 61. So, among active players with long careers, Jeter is fairly close to the midpoint of average power and the closest thing to an actual singles hitter
Okay. I'd say "below average power" is a fair assessment. "Singles hitter" sounds like Luis Castillo, or Ichiro for that matter. There's also the "for a shortstop" caveat, although I'm not convinced he deserves that since he's been a poor defender at the position.
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Posted: 7/19/2014 3:29 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 



SackExchange wrote:
iluvthemets wrote: Jeter's best asset is his leadership ability and he always comes through in the clutch! 3400 career hits; definite HOFer. If anything, he is underrated! How many rings?
So his best assets are intangible. Aside from his ability to hit for contact, what are his tangibles?
This is comical that you can't give this guy credit. A shortstop with 3400 hits, almost 900 XBH, 350+ steals, almost 2000 runs, .311 hitter, .822 OPS, 8 top 10 MVP votes, and oh yeah one of the great post season players of all time, with a ridiculous amount of legendary hits/moments.

Last edited 7/19/2014 4:53 PM by acesfull86

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Posted: 7/19/2014 3:39 PM

Re: Is Derek Jeter Overrated? 


Okay. I've given this some thought. Carlos Beltran and Derek Jeter are both currently on the Yankees. They're both currently shells of their former selves.

Beltran is one of my favorite players ever. I believe he was an amazing baseball player.

Jeter is one of my least favorite players. I used to hate him; now I just roll my eyes.

I believe in WAR. Beltran has 63 career fWAR. Jeter has 74. So if Beltran is amazing, then is Jeter more amazing? Eh. Not really. He has about 33% more PA than Beltran. Jeter has 3.6 WAR/600 compared to Beltran's 4.1 WAR/600. So the difference is primarily that Jeter's been a better compiler. Beltran burned brighter, but Jeter's burned longer.

So I think peak Beltran >> peak Jeter. But still, I must give the man his due. He's been a very good player for a very long time. I hate retirement tours, but anyone calling Jeter "just a singles hitter" is off base, imo.
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