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Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation

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Posted: 3/31/2013 8:55 AM

Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


http://www.nypost.com/p/sports...ZGraRaI0RrSnO/0

I'm sure many will disagree, but the parallels are clearly there.  Obviously the two approaches aren't complete mirror images of each other, but despite all the claims that this FO's plan lacks any real direction, it's blatantly obvious what Sandy and Co. are trying to achieve.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 9:29 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


That article is awfully flimsy.

Let's see any success from the draft before there is any comparison to a player development program that yielded CY Young's and MVP quality players (Strawberry,Dykstra and Mitchell).

If you read the article it rehashes the success from the 80's.. then it talks about the Alderson's A's...   Then we get to present day.... Find me the correlation between the 80's and now. 

A few generations later, Alderson is trying to institute many of the same pillars with the Mets, and the talent comes first. He cited the acquisitions of Wheeler and d'Arnaud, as well as Dominican pitcher Rafael Montero. He also pointed to the Mets' interest this past winter in free agent outfielder Michael Bourn (who signed with Cleveland) and Arizona outfielder Justin Upton (traded to Atlanta) as signs that the Mets are preparing to take the next step.

And Alderson's predecessor Omar Minaya left behind more talent -- Matt Harvey, Ike Davis, Daniel Murphy and others -- than the Mets of the late 1970s did for Cashen.

An evaluator from another NL team opined, "The Mets have a solid system for me, somewhere outside of the top 10 overall." He credited Alderson most of all for the Beltran-Wheeler trade and commended the Mets for "solid work" in Latin America. However, he added, the Mets have not fared well in the draft, nor in waiver claims or minor-league signings.

A second evaluator, from a different NL club, gave the Mets' farm system a C, and he echoed a criticism made by the first evaluator: "There aren¹t many position players." This official described outfielder Brandon Nimmo, the Mets' first-round pick of 2011, as "alright," and shortstop Gavin Cecchini, their first-round selection last year, as "OK." As Alderson and his deputies settled in nearly 2 1/2 years ago and took stock, gaining knowledge of ownership's deep involvement in the Bernie Madoff mess, they figured it would take three years to fully clean house.

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Posted: 3/31/2013 9:37 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


The hope with any rebuilding/youth project is yields of all-stars and difference makers.  Cy Youngs and MVPs are never a given, but Wheeler, TDA, Syndy, Montero, Nimmo, etc. are a pretty good start.  And while there is clearly a dearth of position player prospects within the system, our pitching depth is as strong as any in baseball.

Point is, the future is much, much brighter than it once was.  Considering where we were, and the limitations we've had to deal with (i.e. the Wilpons self-inflicted financial mess), that's about all you can reasonably ask for.

Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 9:47 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


Alderson has a looong way to go before an article like that gets written.

Every team gets draft picks and every team can point to a few good prospects.  We're headed for our 5th straight losing season and while not all of that is Alderson's fault, he hasn't done much to put an end to it.  The light at the end of the tunnel is miles away.  Let's hold off on it comparing his work to the work that led to the quality of 84-90.

And Brandon Nimmo shouldn't be included in a group of good prospects.  The early returns don't look very good.   It's early, but that pick looks shaky so far.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 9:50 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



DocK16 wrote:
Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.
From 97-2008..

9 winning seasons in 12 yrs.
3 playoff births
1 WS appearance.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:00 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


Wheeler and D'Arnaud are more than just good prospects.  They're elite prospects.  You want to point to future Cy Youngs and MVP candidates, those come from the elite prospect pool, which is extremely limited.

With regards to the light at the end of the tunnel being miles away, I disagree.  We're a quality off-season and a couple prospects meeting expectations away from 80+ wins.

C - TDA
1B - Ike
2B - Murphy/Flores
SS - Tejada
3B - Wright
LF - ?
CF - Cowgill
RF - ?

SP - Harvey
SP - Niese
SP - Wheeler
SP - Gee

RP - Parnell
RP - Burke (premature, but I'm extremely optimistic about him)
RP - Familia
RP - Edgin/Carson

Loads of pitching making its way up the minor league ladder, some of which should be ready at some point next season -- i.e. Mateo, Montero, Tapia, Mazzoni, etc.

Acquire a legit corner OFer, a solid SP, and a couple dependable RP and we're an 80+ win team easily.  That can easily be accomplished in an off-season.  This team is not that far off.  A lot however depends on Wheeler and TDA.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:02 AM

RE: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


Mets are going to be in the same boat as the Braves. Not as good as the Nationals and having to rely on a stupid 1 game playoff to make the postseason.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:03 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.
From 97-2008..

9 winning seasons in 12 yrs.
3 playoff births
1 WS appearance.

That's an extremely selective, misleading representation.  Three playoff births since 1988 is an abomination.  Hell, one since 2000 is horrible. 

I'd like to see the team's winning percentage even from 97-12.

Last edited 3/31/2013 10:05 AM by DocK16

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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:15 AM

RE: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



thethe wrote: Mets are going to be in the same boat as the Braves. Not as good as the Nationals and having to rely on a stupid 1 game playoff to make the postseason.

Better hope Teheran can one day match up with Harvey and Wheeler. biggrin
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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:21 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



DocK16 wrote:
oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.
From 97-2008..

9 winning seasons in 12 yrs.
3 playoff births
1 WS appearance.

That's an extremely selective, misleading representation.  Three playoff births since 1988 is an abomination.  Hell, one since 2000 is horrible. 

I'd like to see the team's winning percentage even from 97-12.
Why should we go to 2012, when Alderson has a role in some of the worst yrs of that stretch?

I believe the characterization that we went "nowhere for decades" is inaccurate.  We were a good franchise that was above average from over a decade.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:28 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.
From 97-2008..

9 winning seasons in 12 yrs.
3 playoff births
1 WS appearance.

That's an extremely selective, misleading representation.  Three playoff births since 1988 is an abomination.  Hell, one since 2000 is horrible. 

I'd like to see the team's winning percentage even from 97-12.
Why should we go to 2012, when Alderson has a role in some of the worst yrs of that stretch?

I believe the characterization that we went "nowhere for decades" is inaccurate.  We were a good franchise that was above average from over a decade.

We were?  We went from good, to horrible, to good again, and then back to horrible.  Hardly an approach worth modeling given its inconsistencies.  Lets not forget, even before the financial mess the Mets won 70 and 79 games with $140M+ payrolls.  We were already experiencing another valley before Madoff took hold.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 10:50 AM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


Cashen's farm systems ranked #1 for like 5 consecutive years.

The highest I've seen this system ranked is #10 by Baseball Prospectus. 

If I see the system ranked top 5 for just ONE year I might compare it to the early 80's.

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Posted: 3/31/2013 12:08 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



Daaaarryl wrote: Cashen's farm systems ranked #1 for like 5 consecutive years.

The highest I've seen this system ranked is #10 by Baseball Prospectus. 

If I see the system ranked top 5 for just ONE year I might compare it to the early 80's.
TBF, if anyone is playing the Cashen Mets its the Nats. Guys like Doc & Daryl only come along so often. And the Nats scored Harper and Strasburg. (and Zimmerman. and Zimmerman. And enough talent to trade for Gio, and Haren, etc.)

And to think, we almost drafted Billy Beane ahead of Straw (according to Moneyball at least.)


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Posted: 3/31/2013 1:12 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



DocK16 wrote: The hope with any rebuilding/youth project is yields of all-stars and difference makers.  Cy Youngs and MVPs are never a given, but Wheeler, TDA, Syndy, Montero, Nimmo, etc. are a pretty good start.  And while there is clearly a dearth of position player prospects within the system, our pitching depth is as strong as any in baseball.

Point is, the future is much, much brighter than it once was.  Considering where we were, and the limitations we've had to deal with (i.e. the Wilpons self-inflicted financial mess), that's about all you can reasonably ask for.

Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.

Um, what? We've seen two SEPARATE contenders built over the span of the last 15 years, both of which were competing for championships. How is what is shaping up to be a third consecutive year of bottom tier baseball better than that? Sandy Alderson has found 2 nice young prospects. And he traded a perennial all-star and a Cy Young award winner for them, both of whom he inherited. 

At this point, Sandy's "plan" is not even as good as Phillips' or Minaya's were. He's in Duquette territory still.

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Posted: 3/31/2013 1:13 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



DocK16 wrote:
oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
oct271986 wrote:
DocK16 wrote:
Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.
From 97-2008..

9 winning seasons in 12 yrs.
3 playoff births
1 WS appearance.

That's an extremely selective, misleading representation.  Three playoff births since 1988 is an abomination.  Hell, one since 2000 is horrible. 

I'd like to see the team's winning percentage even from 97-12.
Why should we go to 2012, when Alderson has a role in some of the worst yrs of that stretch?

I believe the characterization that we went "nowhere for decades" is inaccurate.  We were a good franchise that was above average from over a decade.

We were?  We went from good, to horrible, to good again, and then back to horrible.  Hardly an approach worth modeling given its inconsistencies.  Lets not forget, even before the financial mess the Mets won 70 and 79 games with $140M+ payrolls.  We were already experiencing another valley before Madoff took hold.
You're right, the Mets are nothing if not consistent since Alderson took over. It's just not the kind of consistent I was hoping for.
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Posted: 3/31/2013 1:17 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



Daaaarryl wrote: Cashen's farm systems ranked #1 for like 5 consecutive years.

The highest I've seen this system ranked is #10 by Baseball Prospectus. 

If I see the system ranked top 5 for just ONE year I might compare it to the early 80's.
Saw Frank Cashen last night at Sam Snead's Grill in the Hilton Gardens INN. He has trouble getting around but he is still hanging in there. Thanks Frank for our last World Championship. wink

"
It's only a game if you win but if you lose it's a stinking waste of time

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Posted: 3/31/2013 1:19 PM

RE: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 


Cashen brought in Kingman in Year 2 and then Foster in Year 3. He didn't blow his load in free agency but he brought in SOMETHING. By Year 4 he had practically the full team built. Alderson's plan involves Marlon Byrd and Colin Cowgill. Lovely.

Last edited 3/31/2013 1:27 PM by shhaggy

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Posted: 3/31/2013 2:29 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



oct271986 wrote: Alderson has a looong way to go before an article like that gets written.

Every team gets draft picks and every team can point to a few good prospects.  We're headed for our 5th straight losing season and while not all of that is Alderson's fault, he hasn't done much to put an end to it.  The light at the end of the tunnel is miles away.  Let's hold off on it comparing his work to the work that led to the quality of 84-90.

And Brandon Nimmo shouldn't be included in a group of good prospects.  The early returns don't look very good.   It's early, but that pick looks shaky so far.
miles away is right.  and the talk about 2014 being anything special seems overly optimistic to me.  

Having a long term plan is great and all but effectively throwing away year after year without making incremental improvements and just expecting everything to come together all at once puts too much stock on the backs on unestablished kids while the team's core player will be effectively on the downside.

It seems to me that the team probably outplayed the FO's true expectations in the first half last season (they were probably expecting it to be a bottom 5 team) and so they seemed not to know what to do in mid-season wrt making improvements or selling off pieces.  Not trading Reyes during the '11 season was also a big mistake once the decision was made not to re-sign him.  It's like they've had one foot in and one foot out the full rebuild door for a while now.  I wouldn't have minded a complete tanking in year 1 or 2 of the new regime's tenure but to me this feels like we're going backwards heading into year 3 staring into a 68 win roster.  It feels like the light at the end of the tunnel is very dim.
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 3/31/2013 3:05 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



DocK16 wrote: Wheeler and D'Arnaud are more than just good prospects.  They're elite prospects.  You want to point to future Cy Youngs and MVP candidates, those come from the elite prospect pool, which is extremely limited.

With regards to the light at the end of the tunnel being miles away, I disagree.  We're a quality off-season and a couple prospects meeting expectations away from 80+ wins.

C - TDA
1B - Ike
2B - Murphy/Flores
SS - Tejada
3B - Wright
LF - ?
CF - Cowgill
RF - ?

SP - Harvey
SP - Niese
SP - Wheeler
SP - Gee

RP - Parnell
RP - Burke (premature, but I'm extremely optimistic about him)
RP - Familia
RP - Edgin/Carson

Loads of pitching making its way up the minor league ladder, some of which should be ready at some point next season -- i.e. Mateo, Montero, Tapia, Mazzoni, etc.

Acquire a legit corner OFer, a solid SP, and a couple dependable RP and we're an 80+ win team easily.  That can easily be accomplished in an off-season.  This team is not that far off.  A lot however depends on Wheeler and TDA.
as of now there are 4 legit players on the above squad.  don't get me wrong, you have every right to be overly optimistic about any player or roster you want, but just about every team in baseball has a roster with as much or more talent.  let's be honest about it, Alderson's work has been underwhelming and uncreative thus far.  He's swapped real talent away to bring in the 2 elite prospects now in the system (or 3 if you're including Noah).  So you're right when you say that a lot is riding on the success of Wheeler and TDA.  We've also got to hope that one or more of the other highly regarding pitching talent realizes its potential.  Cause otherwise, adding top talent via the draft in the form of HS kids is a long slog and when your cornerstone player is already 30, how old wll he be when the HS draftees begin to pay dividends?
"Maybe it's time to make some moves."  - Sandy Alderson
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Posted: 3/31/2013 3:14 PM

Re: Alderson's plan resembles early 80's renovation 



shhaggy wrote:
DocK16 wrote: The hope with any rebuilding/youth project is yields of all-stars and difference makers.  Cy Youngs and MVPs are never a given, but Wheeler, TDA, Syndy, Montero, Nimmo, etc. are a pretty good start.  And while there is clearly a dearth of position player prospects within the system, our pitching depth is as strong as any in baseball.

Point is, the future is much, much brighter than it once was.  Considering where we were, and the limitations we've had to deal with (i.e. the Wilpons self-inflicted financial mess), that's about all you can reasonably ask for.

Time will tell if Sandy's plan comes even remotely close to Cashen's.  Regardless, it's a hell of a lot better than the status quo which had gotten us nowhere for over two decades.

Um, what? We've seen two SEPARATE contenders built over the span of the last 15 years, both of which were competing for championships. How is what is shaping up to be a third consecutive year of bottom tier baseball better than that? Sandy Alderson has found 2 nice young prospects. And he traded a perennial all-star and a Cy Young award winner for them, both of whom he inherited. 

At this point, Sandy's "plan" is not even as good as Phillips' or Minaya's were. He's in Duquette territory still.



7 out of the past 11 seasons have been losing seasons.  We've made the playoffs once since 2000.  Once.

You really want to try to talk up Sandy's predecessors?  Phillips and Minaya drove this franchise into the ground.  At least Sandy has helped dramatically improve the farm while not setting us back half a decade... like his predecessors.
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